LEOVOLD IS BANNED!
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on April 24, 2017, 4:03 p.m. by Phaetion
Oh, and Protean Hulk is unbanned. Grab them because I smell a buyout.
Discuss
Text for those who can't access it:
"APRIL 24, 2017
BANNED
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
UNBANNED
Protean Hulk
RULES
No changes.
We had hopes for Leovold and gave him every opportunity to prove that he would be strong but safe in the format. He simply wasnt. Leovold violates the tenet of creating undesirable game states by easily locking other players out of the game. We prefer to encourage situations in which everyone gets to play, and its too easy for Leovold to create the opposite, even unintentionally.
On the other hand, we feel as though its time to let Protean Hulk off the leash. A number of factors led to this decision. Support within the community has been tilting toward Protean Hulk for quite some time. Inside the Rules Committee, we have been leaning in that direction for a while as well, but didnt have enough of a consensus. Now we do. We acknowledge that the card will be strong, but are of the opinion that it wont be the centralizing factor it once would have been. Back when Protean Hulk was banned, both creatures and graveyard control were nowhere near as strong as they are today. We know combo possibilities exist with the card, but they need to be specifically built around, so to us it becomes a great value card instead of a dangerous combo piece in casual environments. We suspect that Protean Hulk will be much like Kokusho, the Evening Star when it was unbanned: powerful but not broken in the current Commander landscape."
-Sheldon
I'm actually working on putting together an EDH podcast and the ban list will be one of the first 10 or so episodes we'll cover.
I'm not going to go over all of my thoughts, but I think a second list would be a net negative.
May 2, 2017 6:36 p.m.
PookandPie says... #3
Alexo, I wasn't speaking to you. Winter last was the one who said the format should be pretty much unregulated, so I was leaving a general thought. If I don't tag you or mention you by name, then I'm not talking generally and not to any one person .
May 2, 2017 6:59 p.m.
buildingadeck says... #4
MagicalHacker: The problem with a tournament list is that it creates two different formats. This seems unproductive since separating cedh from regular edh games further divides an already divided community to where differences would be irreconcilable. I find that self-policing is the best method to play healthy edh games. If that doesn't work, a member of the playgroup should step in and address the player(s) whose decks and play are not within the ideology of that group.
May 2, 2017 8:37 p.m.
Winterblast says... #6
My main problem with the ban policy in commander is that it has hit a somehow expensive card (which I luckily don't own) because it's supposedly "unfun" among casual players. And it's a damn CREATURE, one of the easily removed card types. I really don't see how Leovold would be an unbeatable commander, as there are numerous ways to prevent the card draw lock from happening. So if the comittee considers Leo overpowered enough to be banned, I fear for my high priced cards (and I really don't care for 40 euro stuff, but rather cards like Mishra's Workshop, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Moat,...which I have kept or even bought especially because they are legal in commander) that are definitely more powerful and enable much more oppressive gameplay than Leovold. A start with Workshop and Trinisphere (or any other acceleration plus cost increasing sphere) is surely harder to break than a 3 coloured creature that has to be followed by a wheel effect in the NEXT turn.
At least Leo is still a Legacy card, but there are many other expensive cards, that you can only use well in commander. Having to fear a ban of cards that are over 50 euro and not really playable in any other format except for commander (and Vintage, but then I would have to buy the power again AND there's no community for Vintage here, so that's no trick) is really stupid imo.
Unbanning a potential turn 1 or 2 win with Hulk while banning leovold for being too strong is a bit ridiculous. I mean what exactly do they want to achieve? In casual playgroups there's good chance that no one can react to a flash hulk at all, which is an extremely annoying and unexpected way to win there...competetive players can handle both, hulk and leovold, while casual groups will be euqualy helpless against both.
The question remains: how has this decision helped ANY player type in this format?
May 3, 2017 5:49 a.m.
Winterblast I totally understand that (owning a bunch of really expensive cards too). I often fear that sol ring, mana crypt and co get banned and ruin my investment just because of some casuals who are to lazy to play a bunch of 3ct removal cards... Because that is so often the reason for unhappy players that claim they had no chance. Unfair games between unbalanced decks really should be avoided and people who think you should play magic without any form of removal make it even worse. I blast those decks even when taking out my Boros aggro list :/Although I can totally feel that you get pissed when losing all cards against Leovold for the sixth time. But at that point just stop to play against this deck.
May 3, 2017 6:28 a.m.
Winterblast says... #8
AlexoBn that's exactly what I mean...Mana Crypt is only at 30-40 euro but except for multiple commander decks it's absolutely useless to have more than one copy of it. A ban of these cards gets more realistic with each ridiculous decision of the comitee and if the playgroup doesn't abandon the whole banlist then, it's a huge lot of money that can be lost...just because People rather complain about too much speed instead of getting a Null Rod for half the price of a mana crypt and make the greedy fastmana players scoop. I use both strategies in my decks, some rely on the power of money, others are built to completely destroy expensive staples.
In our playgroup the newer players have quickly realised that you either have to be the one who uses the full power of the format or build against these strategies. Of course, there are very few players who get severely pissed if someone diables their deck with a very primitive play, but no one wants to play with these people anyway and they don't want to play against somehow reliable decks either. Some whiney bitches even wanted to introduce the french commander banlist for multiplayer because they thought they had a better chance if there was no sol ring and mana crypt. I guess these guys never had a look at what was legal in French commander and that for example Limited Resources would make them cry even more.
May 3, 2017 7:59 a.m.
I do not see, how a price tag has anything to do with this. I do understand your concerns, but I find that logic flawed; let me explain:
A game of commander is a social happening. The terms of the game, what is fine and what is not, should be discussed beforehand. Above all, everyone involved should actively strive to keep this game fun for everyone else.
You speak of investment. If I invest in a card (say one of, or all of the p9) I would not risk playing with it fearing of any random accident (e.g. a glass of water spilling over).
If you get a super expensive card to get an edge in power, you should consider the following. Is paying to win a thing you'd advocate? More importantly, how much of an edge is that 1 card in a 100 card singleton format giving you? This last part makes all of those cards relatively safe investment-wise, so worry not. Keep showing your bling to people!
The problem with Leo was that he is a legendary creature, which means he can be accessible always. Someone wins with Flash and Protean Hulk turn 0? All cool! Fast game, roll the next one. Does that player win like this consistently between turn 3-5 every game, talk to him about how he is making the pod stale and uninteresting. If he doesn't mix things up, expel him from the gamepod. Leovold was doing exactly these things.
Now, after having said all this, I will repeat my opinion on the matter. Discuss your expectations from the game before you start the game. Ensure everyone is aware of what will be happening and has fun. Would a casual player have any fun in a competitive pod? Probably not, although seeing those super combos happen does have a certain appeal. Would a competitive player enjoy playing solitaire in a casual pod? I don't think so. A game is fun when there is challenge. Well organised pods have no need of a banlist! As long as you are not a sadist who gets high from not letting others play, then this banning/unbanning is of no consequence. Play Leo in his semi competitive environment (he is not for casual and too slow in competitive), and play hulk combos where they will be accepted. Adapt the banlist to your playgroup! The rule committee promotes this. Follow those suggestions and make your game the best for your playgroup!
May 3, 2017 9:28 a.m.
A small addition to my previous comment: There's a lot of expensive cards that have that pricetag because of collectors and not a specific format (e.g. Juzam Djinn) while others see heavy play in eternam formats in general (e.g. Mishra's Workshop). So again, don't get paranoid about your investments in old cards.
May 3, 2017 9:34 a.m.
Dude holy shit Time Walk is unbanned and so is Sundering Titan hot damn
May 6, 2017 1:14 a.m.
buildingadeck says... #12
Panas: There really wasn't a problem with Leovold being a legendary. For the umpteenth time, he held "draw my entire deck" decks at bay, which is a decent portion of the meta thanks to Thrasios.
May 6, 2017 1:20 a.m.
buildingadeck: I completely agree with you! Which is another reason (albeit minor) why I disagree with the banning. In the competitive meta where such things thrive, Leo was just ok (not even good, much less busted). He was only oppressive in the casual scene when he was piloted by sadists (to put it frankly and without any tact).
In a way, he took the blow because of his pubstomper builds and not for what he was actually doing to the format.
May 6, 2017 10:02 a.m.
buildingadeck says... #17
I mean, he was good in comp edh, but he wasn't anything insane. He didn't offset the power levels there. The people who abused him at their LGS' in non-prize supported events ruined him.
MagicalHacker says... #1
Let's say the RC announced a second banlist: one intended for tournament play (but would be geared more towards cEDH). This banlist has just as many cards on it as the current banlist, but the actual cards on it are vastly different to fit the competitive/tournament mindset.
Would this work out? Is it viable? Would people like it more than the current system?
Out of curiosity, what cards would make most sense for that list?
In your opinion, would creating such a list free up the current banlist?
Thanks all!
May 2, 2017 5:21 p.m.