How do you EDH deck?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Oct. 22, 2015, 4:19 p.m. by titanreaver
I have been playing MTG for quite a long time now, mostly playing Legacy and Vintage. I played EDH way back in the day but it has been several years at this point. I had two decks a Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck and a Nicol Bolas deck featuring the Mind Over Matter + Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind combo. I really want to find more people to play with at the local venues but it has become more difficult to find regular players outside of tournaments and even they are getting harder to come by (at least where I am). I have considered playing EDH for a while now, because there are plenty of people who play regularly and have invited me to come and join them. I have just had a hard time trying to come up with reliable decks that in the format, and an engine to keep them working. What I need most is a bit of help in the differences between how I look at building a legacy/vintage deck and how I should be looking at building an EDH deck. As far as I can tell you play a bunch of fast mana, and tutors, but I feel like that can't be it. Any suggestions are welcome and while specifics decks or examples are fine, I would appreciate it if you could at least provide general advice along side them.
Epochalyptik says... #3
See the articles and resources on my page.
Also, I'm moving this because it isn't an actual deck help request. It's a discussion of the format at large.
October 22, 2015 5:41 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
This thread was moved to a more appropriate forum (auto-generated comment)
October 22, 2015 5:42 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #5
The politics of multiplayer is THE biggest difference, and I would doubt that there is anyone who could disagree with that.
The Command Zone made a great podcast for that exact question back in the day... let's see if I can find it... Oh duh, it's the first episode lol xD If you like listening to stuff on the drive to work/school, these guys are the best mtg podcast imo.
October 22, 2015 6:03 p.m.
You're right there is a lot more to it then tutors and fast mana ramp. Granted those things can help a lot, not all colors have access to such spells aside from mana rocks (green=ramp, black\blue=tutors mostly black with some exceptions in gw).
Do you have a group of friends or is it only at the game store where you're constantly being invited? This might affect the style or competitiveness of your deck. EDH decks come in a wide variety of flavors which is why they're so fun. You could go more cutthroat or more casual. Note that the more oppressive your deck is the less likely people will want you to come back lol. That's not to say you shouldn't build that way but having other decks to play is a good idea when they start getting irritated. Your deck may also paint a target on your head or you can play politics and paint it on others.
That being said, I've found that having a Commander or theme you enjoy is the way to start. Themes like control, blink, aggro, combo, tokens, ect ect. Then start looking for cards that synergize well with that theme or each other. Of course, some choose their general simply for the colors but I prefer more interactive generals. Your old Niv deck for example is commonly used in combo decks and he's still viable today if that's the route you want to go. Or there's many other combo-oriented commanders out there to choose which others can point you to should you want to know like Nekusar, the Mindrazer who can be fun to pilot as combo for example. Pick your poison :)
October 22, 2015 6:07 p.m.
poteatertot says... #7
edh is in my opinion the most interesting format games are a little longer and take a little more strategy. in standard games are over by turn 8 or 9 sometimes edh goes to round 20. so its a very different format. you actually don't have to decide between voltron or compliment the commander because there is hundred cards to work with unless you play Shadowborn Apostle. you can have a deck that voltrons your commander and then synergizes with two other cards to win the game. just jump in
October 22, 2015 6:10 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #8
Remember that it's a multiplayer format. Cards that only hit one opponent are much worse than they would be in constructed. This includes creatures that are just beaters. "Each opponent" are words every EDH player likes to see on a card. Repeatable effects are also much more valuable, which is why enchantments are so important in the format.
You can also run much more mana-intensive cards, since these games can be a lot slower and many EDH decks ramp aggressively in the early game. Curve is still important, but things you couldn't cast in other formats can work here. Just make sure they're worth it.
Color is super-important in EDH. In other formats you can splash colors for some benefit. Here, you're stuck with the limitations of the color. No green or black means ramp will be a challenge. White and red have poor card draw. No white or green will make it hard to remove enchantments. You really need to think about what things your colors can and cannot do and how you will deal with that.
My basic philosophy is to pick a strategy and a commander that enhances (rather than enables) that strategy. I feel that building a deck that requires the commander is risky and building one where they don't need to even be there is missing the point.
October 22, 2015 7:32 p.m.
titanreaver says... #9
Thanks Epochalyptik sorry about that.
I would mostly be playing at the store. My friends that play, pretty much just play Legacy. Most of them thats all they know. Then I have a few friends that play standard, but I hate standard so I only ever have a standard deck just for the sake of having it, and being able to do things when I am not on duty Friday nights.
Honestly the multi player aspect is one of the reasons I want to play. I love playing Archenemy, and Planeschase , and I loved the voting mechanic from Conspiracy.
I don't have a General in mind at the moment. I was thinking of something with an attrition motif. Since that has always been my favorite way to play. Maybe some kind of a Stax like deck. I had considered even a Pestilence kind of thing. Since that is one of my favorite cards I never play.
Its just that I know what a mana curve for should look like for the decks I play, however I don't really know how to make one that stretches out to these 8, 9, or even bigger dudes with out a reliable way of not paying for that junk.
The old Scion deck I mentioned used Sheoldred to keep the dragons I threw into the yard coming out to play. Then finding her wasn't the problem but casting such a big old fatty was terrible. I took at least six turns to get the engine going, and I just never felt like that was good because the engine itself only produced one dragon a turn. So I would spend all of this effort ramping and searching and protecting just to produce one dragon each turn. Its not that it wasn't successful, I just kept thinking wow this is it I guess.
The other thing is the banned list, when I started there was no banned list, except the ante cards. Now there is a banned list and then every store seems to have their own. The last place had Braids, Cabal Minion banned and so I just thought why play a format where that card is banned.
I don't know I guess.
October 22, 2015 7:32 p.m.
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October 22, 2015 7:51 p.m.
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October 22, 2015 7:58 p.m.
Braids, Cabal Minion is banned all together in EDH. To see the ban list go here: EDH Ban List
October 22, 2015 10:14 p.m.
titanreaver says... #14
Well it was listed under their house rues at the time, but thanks for the link.
Now I only occasionally argue with banned lists because I know R&D; know more than I do. However when several of my favorite cards are on that list. It does make it hard to want to play the format. Which leads to the next question, if the games are casual why are there so many banned cards? I mean rofellos, panaoptic mirror, seriously?
Are those cards really that powerful in EDH. None of the cards mentioned here really ever see play in any format.
I guess i just don't understand how things are supposed to play out. Is it really a bad thing to play things that lock out opponents, I saw erayo was on there. why?
October 22, 2015 10:31 p.m.
The banned list came about because there are simply too many cards in the format that are easy to abuse or are easily broken by numerous cards. Others are just not fun to play against. EDH was suppose to be a more casual, fun format, not a necessarily all in cutthroat type. Though, those decks certainly do exist and there are plenty of degenerate cards out there that can be easily broken that aren't banned.
Erayo is on there because he is a creature that turns into an enchantment very easily with a very nasty ability. Black has no answers to such an enchantment or any enchantments really so now they are forced to cast a chump spell to be countered before casting anything that can resolve.
If you want to run a lock-down/stax/control type deck, that is perfectly fine. There are many of those floating about. I run a cruel control Brago, King Eternal for instance that locks down the entire board while they wait for a 2/4 to finish them off.
October 22, 2015 10:46 p.m.
Braids and Rofellos were banned because a turn 2-3 drop with them often meant game over. Braids (w/Dark Ritual) from the sacrifice and Rofellos from the insane mana ramp from a single source that could drop huge fatties early or combo out very fast with Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle, ect. Most decks would be hard pressed to answer such early drops/combos. They used to have 2 separate lists where these guys were fine as part of the 99 but apparently they decided that keeping two separate ban lists (1 for just use as generals and 1 for complete bans) they merged them together making all cards listed as completely banned. Oh and then they unbanned Kokusho, the Evening Star which was nice :)
October 22, 2015 11:03 p.m.
titanreaver says... #17
Yeah I just don't see how braids means game over by herself. Even the old decks that did play her needed a bit of set up to keep her around and keep their stuff. Without some sort of renewable resource she kills herself. I guess I need to play more to see why that is the case.
October 22, 2015 11:15 p.m.
She needed a deck built around her for sure and it needed to be fast to work. You could mulligan into a Dark Ritual and drop her on turn two. Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Nether Spirit, Bitterblossom all these set her up nicely to where dropping a land, sac'ing a creature, or paying 1 life was all you needed to have a sac target every turn. The problem is most decks can't respond to that and now their lands or whatnot are disappearing and they can't do anything with the 1 land they get to drop.
October 22, 2015 11:47 p.m.
titanreaver says... #19
Yeah I guess that makes sense if she was your general and what not.
So I have been looking, and I still don't know what a mana curve should look like for these decks. Especially for these decks that these huge generals, because you actually need to generate all of that mana. Is a low cost aggro strategy a thing, it looks like it would be hard to make an aggro deck that gets to 40 life on multiple people. It seems like RDW is just not an option, and it seems like counter/control would be nearly impossible to pull off with so many people casting spells. So I guess in general does my deck have to be able to kill everyone on its own, or should I assume the other players are going to take care of some of that for me?
October 23, 2015 12:20 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #20
@titanreaver: The first thing to understand is that WotC has no control over the banlist. It is maintained by the EDH Rules Committee. They ban cards based on how they impact the format's health; power level is incidental to this.
Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan were banned because they were too prevalent. Every green deck had them, and every game where someone was playing green revolved around them to the exclusion of anything else. Unhealthy, and the consistency of being able to grab whatever lands you like in a multiplayer, singleton format was pretty crazy too.
Others are banned because they're poor fits for the format. Griselbrand was not designed to be a reasonable card for a 40 life format. Coalition Victory and Painter's Servant don't play nice with the color identity rules. Limited Resources basically says "players can't play EDH".
It's actually a pretty short banlist once you take off everything that's not also banned or restricted in Vintage.
Anyway, on to the mana curve thing; it's still important. But in EDH a scenario where you have a card in your hand that's too expensive to cast soon isn't the end of the world. You do not have to do the biggest play your deck can do every turn, because often people won't even bother with you; they'll be focused on someone else. Often they'll have cards like that in hand, too.
If you look at most EDH decks, the large spells (CMC 7+) are usually things that have a very large impact or huge payoff. These are often things you don't even want to cast too early; doing so can turn the whole table against you and it's very easy to overextend yourself. Some expensive spells I've run are Craterhoof Behemoth, Rise of the Dark Realms and Insurrection. Those will often do nothing if you cast them early, but sandbagging them until they'll win the game is a legit strategy in EDH.
You can also cheat stuff out. I almost never actually pay the mana cost for Darksteel Forge. I pitch it and then cheat it out with Daretti, Scrap Savant (a good stax commander, by the way). Cheating mana costs is especially good in EDH.
Ramp helps too. Every EDH deck needs to have a fair amount of ramp so you can drop those big things when the time comes. Running a good amount of draw helps filter through your deck; going over your maximum hand size and having to pitch stuff is a trivial cost here. Tutors are especially powerful.
For a stax commander, I've seen lists with Selvala, Explorer Returned, Daretti, Scrap Savant, Brago, King Eternal, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Glissa, the Traitor and Nath of the Gilt-Leaf. All fine options. You also have to worry less about curving into big stuff with these decks; stax tends to run low-cost cards. Maybe look into these commanders.
And to answer the question you asked while I was typing this up... yes, aggro is difficult in a 40 life multiplayer format. You need to build it for a longer game with a lot more removal being thrown around. Burn requires repeatable effects (enchantment based, a lot of the time, or creature abilities) or things like storm.
Control is very viable, but you need to understand that you will have to let things resolve or stick around for a while that you rather wouldn't. If you try to counter all the things you would in other formats, you'll run out of counterspells pretty fast. You'll run out of removal, too. Again, repeatable effects are fantastic. Effects that hit more than one thing (e.g. Wrath of God and Cyclonic Rift) are great.
It takes a while, but you eventually get a feel for which things you should allow to happen. Often another one of your opponents will have an answer even if you don't.
And no, your deck doesn't need to be built with the expectation it will have to kill everyone. Sometimes it won't kill more than one person. Sometimes you can even win without killing anyone (which is hilarious). It should definitely be able to get multiple opponents, but unless you play combo, killing the whole table yourself isn't common. Your opponents will also fight each other.
October 23, 2015 12:44 a.m.
Funny you say that, I just made an Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck that needs testing. He uses 1-2 drop evasive (flying, unblockable, shadow) creatures to net massive card draw. But his ability allows my opponents to take advantage of the card draw by attacking each other...for me. He's a low cost aggro deck and hopes for his opponents to kill each other and rewards them for doing so. So there's a political aspect to it as well. Counter/control decks are very prevalent in this format. There's so many counters available to use as well as reusable ones. The key is to know when to use them, like mostly against things that threaten your strategy as opposed to everything your opponent wants to cast. Talrand, Sky Summoner in fact runs almost exclusively counters and cheap 1-2 sorcery/instants as he gets so much value from them.
There are several successful "red deck wins" type strategies that are effective. Straight up burn strategies however are not very effective in EDH. Purphoros, God of the Forge is pretty fun and I run him so I may be biased lol. Cast him turn 2-3 and go to town with creature token spells. Only need 20 creatures to win, 14 if you have Impact Tremors out which sounds like a lot, but it isn't. Krenko, Mob Boss goblin tribals can be very nasty. Especially with a Coat of Arms or Door of Destinies. He is a low cost aggro deck that can be quite scary. Of course, Wort, Boggart Auntie is another solid goblin option that gives you access to black as well. My buddy runs her and it can ruin your day. I almost built a Heartless Hidetsugu EDH deck with haste enablers (to tap him once he comes out) and then use creatures to ping people so they die when their life totals are an odd number to get rounded down :p
October 23, 2015 12:51 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #22
Flagellum's got it. A lot of these strategies require a different mindset and different construction. A much more eloquent and on-point explanation than mine.
With aggro strategies you can also go with tokens. Flood the board with so many things that opponents can't handle all of them. If the tokens are removed you just make even more. This is a good example; because tokens don't take up a card in your deck, it can be more resilient and hold up better for a long game.
That said, with aggro you can't attack all your opponents at once. You pick one to focus on, kill them, and then move on to the next. There will be turns where you choose not to attack at all; sort of an alien concept for aggro in any other format, but with the way EDH games go it can be the best play at times.
October 23, 2015 1:01 a.m.
Basically, it boils down to what YOU want to do. The rest sort of falls in place. If your curve is low, great! If your curve is high, you will want to run ramp/mana rocks to help.
Color fixing is another thing to keep in mind. It is cheaper ($ wise) to run a mono colored deck as opposed to a multicolored deck. Lands are some of the most expensive things multicolored decks will have to pay for. However, mono colored decks have more trouble answering their weaknesses like black has with enchantments.
October 23, 2015 1:21 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #24
... which is why I usually recommend people start with two colors.
October 23, 2015 1:23 a.m.
titanreaver says... #25
Well I guess if I had to choose the strategy I like the most, it would be some sort of Stax thing, or really any prison deck would probably work just fine.
October 23, 2015 1:45 a.m.
Azorius (
) is your friend then. Brago, King Eternal lends himself to blink type things. You can pull a lot of shenanigans with him (I run him here: Brago, King of Blinkage Deck). Blinking Parallax Tide or Tangle Wire refreshes fade counters. Also, Reality Acid is a terrible card by itself, but with a Brago trigger that permanent is sacrificed and it comes back to the BF enchanting something else. Great way of dealing with indestructible permanents. You can even go as far as abusing the stack with Strionic Resonator permanently exiling things with Oblivion Ring ect.
Another great commander for stax/prison deck is Grand Arbiter Augustin IV who does his thing without the need to hit an opponent like Brago does.
October 23, 2015 2:22 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #27
I agree. Azorius is a better choice for that strategy and will play more like a prison deck than mono-red or Selesnya (mana denial) or Golgari (hand disruption). Derevi allows for a wider range of strategies, but as mentioned already three colors is more challenging and expensive to build.
October 23, 2015 4:46 a.m.
One other format difference worth mentioning: It caught me off-guard how much EDH players *hate land destruction. Jason Alt has a couple of articles on this and other EDH "transgressions" that are worth reading. I'm not saying you should never run a Jokulhaups again, just that you'll want to understand how it may come across to a new group.
Speaking of Jason Alt, he has a whole series of "75% deck" articles. I really like his design philospohy and have been recommending this article to anyone starting in EDH.
Also wanted to mention: There's a good EDH stax primer over at mtgsalvation.
Finally, I really like Wizards' pre-constructed Commander decks for new players. None of the decks are even close to great, but they're all playable out of the box. Each allows you to try out three different commanders, practice your politics (because the decks are weak, you really have to work the table to win), and figure out a lot about what actually works and doesn't work for you in EDH. You also get a decent mana-base and a bunch of staple cards for once you figure out what direction you want to go. All-in-all, they're just a super way to explore the format. As others have mentioned, building great three-color is both hard and expensive. But you can run a solid three-color stax deck on a budget by starting with the Eternal Bargain or Evasive Maneuvers precon.
October 23, 2015 7:26 a.m.
Forgot to mention: Another great way to start out is with something based on Tomer Abramovici's budget decks over at mtggoldfish. For stax, check out his writeups on Selvala, Explorer Returned and Brago, King Eternal.
October 23, 2015 7:43 a.m.
Mandalorian says... #30
I also agree that Azorius is good for that strategy. Stuff like Propaganda, Norn's Annex, and Linvala, Keeper of Silence are the type of cards youll have access to.
October 23, 2015 10:52 a.m.
titanreaver says... #31
Honestly no to concerned with the price. I have most of the things that make the decks expensive. So what about someone like Ertai, the Corrupted. He seems like he would do pretty well in a prison build.
October 23, 2015 4:35 p.m.
Esper certainly has the colors for it. I imagine he can work but Zur the Enchanter might be a better esper pick for stax (or voltron, combo, ect.). Aside from the fact Zur is the most hated general in the format lol. I'm not too familiar with Ertai to really offer synergistic cards other than the typical stax package.
October 23, 2015 7:15 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #33
Ertai would want to have tokens to sacrifice, or easily recurred creatures. Ways to until him would also help. But a repeatable ability like that is nice.
October 23, 2015 9:04 p.m.
titanreaver says... #35
Well is suppose there is no reason not to play both. I just figure I should go ahead and be a bit thematic with an EDH deck and Ertai is one of my favorite characters from MTG lore.
October 23, 2015 10:43 p.m.
poorpinkus says... #36
yeah I'd say politics is a huge part of EDH, there are a lot of times in which you can bribe people not to attack you with cards like Phelddagrif and do well without having many blockers, if I were you I'd take a good look at some of the most group hugg-y decks you can find before deciding to make a deck. You don't have to use any of the decks at all, but they give you a good idea of how the politics works
November 11, 2015 1:25 a.m.
titanreaver says... #37
The politics aren't to alien to me, as I do play a lot of multiplayer games. I decided long ago that I just don't win multiplayer very much, and I have excepted this and am better for it. I love playing prison-y stax like decks, or pox like decks and most people don't like fighting against stax. However that is what I like to play. That being said, I might try a more hug-y deck for as while and see if I can stand it. As has been suggested it would probably be good if I get into the format with something that won't paint a big target on me. Then I can decide if I am okay with the target and if I loose every game from then on out so be it. When I make decisions I understand the consequences.
November 11, 2015 9:52 p.m.
If you want to build stax, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is your friend. Get a mana rock and you can get him out as early as turn 2 (Sol Ring+a w and a u land for example). I have success with my version: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV + (s)tax. If you want to build a hug deck I've seen a few around Phelddagrif that are good for luls, and no one can hate the cute hippo with wings. Also if you get bored/want to win just throw an equipment on him and beat people down with a 4/4 flying commander damage.
November 11, 2015 10:30 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #39
Group hug decks are interesting in that they tend to backfire spectacularly. In some playgroups they'll work well and people will leave you alone. Others will attack the group hug player with extreme aggression. Most are somewhere in between. It's hard to tell where on the spectrum a group falls until you play with them.
November 12, 2015 1:14 a.m.
The biggest thing to remember is how large the format is. You can build the same commander different ways. You can use the same strategy with different commanders. Play groups vary wildly not just in what is acceptable but also in what is competitive - and a single new competitor can wildly change the outlook of a game.
How competitive is your group? As I said, there's a big range... You can have people massing creatures for 20 turns or control/combo players winning on turn 3-7. What you play against will impact what you should build. Even mentioning a few of the prominent decks would provide a lot of insight.
You mention Stax. While viable, I would advise against it as a first deck at least. It warps games and if it works everyone will turn against you because you are interrupting their strategies. If it doesn't work, many players adhere to the strategy of killing you before it does. It can be fun to play the archenemy but you will be forced to do so near every game if you come to the table with Grand arbiter as commander.
Stax, to me, is more of a 1v1 strategy. It's easier to lock one opponent and that opponent's attention isn't split to multiple people. 1v1 stax makes for great games (granted your opponent is capable). Similarly, loading up on stax or counters/removal can be dicey when playing multiplayer. This brings me to the point:
Know how you want to win. You mention stax so I assume you enjoy limiting your opponent in some sort of way. How do you want to win from there: damage? Combo? Attrition? Some mix of them is fine but many fall into the trap of making decks that lack an end plan. It takes a lot of card slots to make something like Stax or Control work consistently and it doesn't leave you many slots for wincons.
Stax can work and you can enjoy it, just know the group you are playing with and know yourself. Will you be satisfied playing almost every game with a target on your head from the very start? Will your play group embrace the challenge of stax or grumble about their lands being useless? Do you have interest in the format outside of Stax games which do tend to be very different? Almost every game with 4 players, someone brings something to the table that warps the game, but being the stax player, you will see things play out similarly a lot of the time, really reducing the variance in the games you play. That is fine, just make sure it's something you want before committing to a stax build.
If you are not overly concerned with winning, I'd suggest looking at a chaos strategy or two. I play Norin the Wary as my main multiplayer commander and it's extremely fun pushing the pace of the game with a Purphoros or moving everyone's cards around with Confusion in the Ranks.
This would be an unconventional prison but I've always liked the idea of building a 5 color deck designed around playing and protecting Shared Fate.
You asked if you can depend on your opponents killing each other... Oh yes, especially if you give them reasons to like Edric, Spymaster of Trest. Card advantage is king here and most players know it. Offer it to them and they will take it. You can sit behind Propaganda and Howling Mine while the Khalia player attacks the control deck.
These are legit strategies in multiplayer and there are plenty others.... Know how you want to try and win. You've got the choices of all the cards in magic and the lack of 4 card redundancy, the higher life, partials, multiplayer.... It all opens up the potential of many cards that aren't viable in other formats. Play the cards you enjoy most and take the opportunity to try some things you simply can't do elsewhere.
Mandalorian says... #2
Becoming a part of and EDH group can be a lot of fun and you should definitely give it a go!
To be honest I don't play vintage or legacy but I do play Modern, Standard, and EDH and can tell you the differences there. Of course in Modern, Legacy, ect you have a theme and then you want multiple of the same cards that fit your theme and synergize within the theme to win. EDH is not that different, the main difference is that you cant have 4 of each card, only 1. Because of this you may want a lot of cards that are different but do the same thing. Don't be afraid to run the lesser known, slightly worse version of certain cards because EDH is slow and casual so its okay. For example, if your running a G/W enchantment deck then a card like Argothian Enchantress is really good but that is 1 card in 100 and to increase your chances of seeing a card with the same effect then you may run other versions as well like Verduran Enchantress, Mesa Enchantress, and maybe even Eidolon of Blossoms. Bad cards can be good cards in EDH so its okay to play stuff that isn't played a lot in other formats because it could be a powerhouse in EDH.
Fast mana and tutors are great but it really depends on what your trying to accomplish and how.
Find a commander you like, and then do 1 of 2 things. Build a deck around your commander like a voltron deck or build a deck in which your commander compliments but isn't necessarily needed to win.
Your percentage of land to spells to creature ratio is the same as other formats.
Did you have a commander in mind? or a color scheme? or a theme like tribal or reanimater?
October 22, 2015 4:59 p.m.