How is Hullbreacher Worse than is Notion Thief?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Dec. 13, 2021, 6:08 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
The recent banning of Hullbreacher in EDH has me wondering why Notion Thief has not also been banned in that format, since those cards are very similar to each other. The only significant difference is that Notion Thief has a slightly higher mana cost than does Hullbreacher; it does also have lower toughness and provides a different bonus to its controller, but those are less significant differences, in my mind; its main effect is that it prevents its controller’s opponents from drawing additional cards.
What does everyone else say about this? How is Hullbreacher worse than is Notion Thief? Does that one mana in its cost really make that much of a difference?
Yep RNR hit a lot of it and what he means by being easier to cast is only being 2u is a lot easier to splash in any deck that runs blue. Why delay can be a great counter spell because it is easier to cast in decks with limited mana base
December 13, 2021 7:24 p.m.
I remember reading on the ban announcement that they were banning Hullbreacher as a way to hit wheel decks, and it kinda makes sense that breacher is much easier to play with wheels. Having one black in Notion Thief may not seem like a lot, but that does mean that you are going to need UBR to combo with wheels where breacher just needs UR.
Also, having hullbreacher be 3CmC and create treasures actually can make a big difference in play. On end step before your turn flash in breacher, then untap, then wheel for 3, then gain seven cards and 21 treasures, and it can all be done on 3 starting mana. Notion thief can start on 4 mana, but then it digs itself into a rut. Notion thief at end of turn, untap, wheel for 3, then you have 1 mana and 28 cards. Late game, when you have a lot of mana, a thief and a wheel can absolutely be a win, but hullbreacher can usually have the same effect on a fast turn 2-4. Especially since if wheeling with breacher draws you into a tutor, it's basically just as good as drawing a ton.
Honestly, I think hullbreacher just made what is seen as an unfun playstyle more playable in casual. Being 2U with flash made it easy to go in a lot of decks, and one-sided wheels with no immediate win can play out very dull. It usually locks 3 out of 4 players into draw-go for a few turns. So maybe the ban was a way to help people from wheeling in casual strictly for the value.
December 13, 2021 8:08 p.m.
griffstick says... #5
Because of it being easy to cast but also giving you treasure tokens.
December 13, 2021 10:02 p.m.
I'm with you. I don't think it should have been banned. But I don't really agree with banning most cards anyways. People should actively choose not to put feel bad cards in their decks that will completely lock their opponents out of the game based on their own moral code, or they can get used to people not wanting to play with them or constantly getting targeted from the start. Each playground is different, and the fact that the argument always leads to "rule zero" is just an argument that the card shouldn't be banned to begin with. Until we start having serious commander tournaments why the hell do we have a ban list anyways?
December 13, 2021 10:57 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #7
BPWyndon - it's for random encounters. Sure, within your group you may have some house rules or building parameters but if you frequent an lgs it sort of gives a primer for what's acceptable and what's not.
December 13, 2021 11:54 p.m.
Hullbreacher has a lower cost, lower color requirements, and higher toughness than Notion Thief. Any one of those facets individually would make it a better card, but all three together removes any question. Those incremental improvements add up.
A couple of people have touched on it, but the reduced color requirement really is a big deal. The Thief will never be playable in Xyris, the Writhing Storm or Kami of the Crescent Moon decks, to pull out two specific examples. Hullbreacher also provides general utility to any deck, even if its ability isn't part of a combo.
Finally, it's easier to build a deck that cares about artifacts than one that cares about cards in hand. This isn't to say Notion Thief doesn't provide a valuable resource, but artifact decks exist, big mana decks exist, and Hullbreacher accelerates those as well.
Basically, Hullbreacher provides better stats and more flexible utility at a lower, less restrictive cost than Notion Thief. That's a lot of difference in value.
December 14, 2021 12:58 a.m.
First off, “its main effect is that it prevents its controller’s opponents from drawing additional cards” is an incorrect statement. In most games, these cards are offensive cards designed to enable the opponent AND lock them down. They’re great offensive cards because they do both. This is a common mistake Wizards makes also - they fail to take into account offensive uses of defensive cards way too often in design (looks at Oko).
To add to the above points on mana cost and colors, you can’t chain cards with Notion Thief in the same way as Hullbreacher. With Notion Thief, you play a three-mana wheel and Notion Thief in the same turn, you have a bunch of cards in-hand, but you’re likely tapped out or have limited mana resources due to the seven-mana investment you just dropped.
Hullbreacher nets you fewer cards, but they’re all cards you can use right away due to the treasure you generated. You now have a shiny new hand and the mana to cast spells. Cast a couple spells from your deck, throw another wheel into play, get more cards and treasure, to cast spells, to wheel, to… you get the picture.
To conclude: That difference is bonus is significant - one gives you more cards in your hand; the other allows you to cast more cards.
December 14, 2021 12:59 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #10
While we all know that card advantage is kind, making Notion Thief a clear choice for the banhammer, we must also respect how a hand full of cards is utterly meaningless if you can't do anything with them - meaning Treasure tokens reign supreme, in this context.
That's my take. One sets you up for a later turn, but Hullbreacher sets you up for "now".
Add 1 less MV and 1 less color AND 1 less pip, and you can see how Hully is far superior, even if he doesn't give you card advantage.
December 14, 2021 1:22 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #11
- card advantage is kind
- kind
Ugh, KING. Damn phone.
December 14, 2021 2:51 a.m.
griffstick says... #12
Yes agree. Also Notion Thief doesn't say "may" draw a card , you have to draw a card this means your opponents can draw that player out of the game
December 14, 2021 9:20 a.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming My playgroup uses the banlist, because some of the people in my playgroup still go to LGS or conventions.
Even with the random person at LGS element I am not convinced we need a banlist... It is still a casual format, there is no tournament play, even with Hullbreacher banned, you still run the risk of playing against somebody who cares more about winning the game than playing for fun, and who will bring a combo deck that will lock you and everybody else out of the game.
December 14, 2021 1:46 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #14
BPWyndon - some people find playing combo to be the most fun and exciting experience. Heck some people find it fun playing against combo. All ways of playing are valid and can be fun/interesting to some. Personally, I find casual and more specifically tribal games to be the least engaging and boring - but I understand people enjoy the synergy and play style. The banlist is meant to hedge against the worse offenders of things that aren't fun.
December 14, 2021 2:44 p.m.
Because the edh ban list is controlled by a small group of people and they make judgment calls for the whole community based off their play group. Both cards are some of the worst I've had the displeasure of sitting across they grind the game to a halt.
December 14, 2021 5:07 p.m.
The important thing, in a casual setting, is that everyone's playing the same game. The banlist helps provide a frame of reference for that across groups. The best case scenario is always to talk about what your deck is doing and have a discussion so that everyone has fun in the game. But sometimes you're a stranger to a group or it's a pickup game at an event or people are bad communicators or are intentionally cagey.
RNR_Gaming says... #2
One mana less, goes in more decks, easier to cast, relevant creature types and creates a bunch of resources when used in conjunction with wheels. Like, with notion theif you're sort of pidgeon holed into being one kind of deck. Hullbreacher was good in a multitude of decks and chances are if you were playing blue this was an auto-include.
December 13, 2021 6:19 p.m.