HULLBREACHER BANNED
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 12, 2021, 11:16 a.m. by Gabe_The_Controller
The Rules Committee banned Hullbreacher today. Look up the commander rules committee if you want more info and to see the announcement.
How many times is that gonna happen to me? WHAT DID I DO TO UPSET THE TAPPED OUT GODS TO HAVE THEM PUNISH ME THUSLY?!?!?!???
July 14, 2021 2:05 p.m.
Everything.. trust me I know 0.o
I'm not sure if you were the first to noticed. I have a very long list. It's just after lots of drama and misunderstandings I finally learned tappedout isn't the place to bring up the patterns of change and expected results.
July 14, 2021 2:11 p.m.
Perhaps "first to notice" might be hyperbole. I can't actually confirm that with any accuracy. I can definitely confirm being the first to openly post a thread about it where SynergyBuild and I went into great detail about what to expect moving forward because of these cards. But you were there, so, yeah, you remember.
TO may not be the best place for "I told ya sos", but all the same... I told ya'll so.
=P
July 14, 2021 2:16 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #8
I think I remember discussing along in that topic, arguing that Hullbreacher was probably worse than Oppo Agent (which apparently feels true to the RC) and that Oppo Agent without the steal is exactly what the format needs '^^
I still think Agent would be a lot cooler as a card if it only dictated what your opponent finds, instead of taking it for yourself to play.
July 14, 2021 2:29 p.m.
plakjekaas that's fair, in response I want to add that hull breacher would be cooler if it didn't prevent the draw, kinda like a smothering tithe with flash
July 14, 2021 2:32 p.m.
I'm gana go out on the limb here. But with the long card list included with these two cards and upcoming cards like Old Gnawbone that maybe just maybe there is someone in r&d or has say so over r&d that has never actually played magic... just maybe
July 14, 2021 2:40 p.m.
I'm not trying discuss gnawbone itself.
I'm just fascinated as a developer were you can create any card into existence with the ultimate goal of balancing power in the formats. What thought process lead to the conclusion that mono green was in need of a 7 cmc flying dragon treasure token generator. If we can solve that then we would know why they make cards like hullbreacher and op agent
July 14, 2021 2:56 p.m.
Maybe the person responsible just loves Smaug as it's his favorite fictional creature/character and his favorite color is green? Seems about as reasonable as any other explanation honestly.
July 14, 2021 3:05 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #14
Well I think we can't avoid discussing Old Gnawbone itself in this specific case that's determined by flavor over function. In D&D and many other fantasy settings, the trope exists of dragons raiding the land, amassing vast amounts of treasure, which is why they're iconic boss monsters with hoards of loot that's worth risking the extinction of your entire adventurers' party. I really like a dragon that 'steals' treasure, but true to the trope, there should be a reward for killing it. Old Gnawbone is lacking in that department.
How it ended up as mono green is beyond me though.
July 14, 2021 3:08 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #15
As someone whose favorite deck revolves around tutors ( Yisan, the Wanderer Bard ) I hated Opposition Agent from the get go. However, having played dozens of games against HB and OA there’s very little comparison between the two cards. HB was always problematic whereas OA forces you to play a bit more creatively. I actually love the idea of finding a way around OA because it’s effect can’t easily be used offensively like HB
July 14, 2021 3:23 p.m.
plakjekaas the reward you get is the expression on your opponents face when thier three turns of hard ramping into a 7 cmc mcfatty build up of hopes and dreams of ruling the world all comes crashing down with the tapping of one single white mana.
July 14, 2021 3:35 p.m.
If you think Oppo Agent can't be used offensively then you aren't playing cEDH with other skilled players. It's exclusively used offensively and presents a game winning threat the second it's cast. It's a must respond to issue in a game of true cEDH. The most skilled players aren't just randomly casting this dude and sticking him out on the board. They are waiting for specific tutors to hijack and win the game on the spot as this play pattern requires not only an answer for the Agent, but also for the original tutor caster should the Agent be dealt with. That's a lot to ask for in most game states.
The question to ask yourself is this: are players in your pod tapping out at any point in time after turn 1? If they are, you are not playing cEDH. Period. Just flat out hands down period. NO true cEDH player EVER taps out after turn 1 for any reason other than an attempt to win the game right then and there. It doesn't matter if you have answers in hand or not, it's a question of statistics and math. If you and every other player has mana available to interact the odds of interaction being out there are so high that attempting game winning lines of play is a no go purely because the attempt will get stuffed the vast overwhelming majority of the time and the sequence of actions resulting in the stuffed attempt leads to tapped out, shields down board states that immediately hand the win to the next player in turn order to untap. In such situations even attempting to win and failing actually causes you, and everyone not next in turn order, to lose on the spot.
July 14, 2021 4:44 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #18
jaymc1130 when did I mention cEDH? The community of EDH players is much wider than simply cEDH of course in cEDH where most decks are running a consultation oracle combo OA will be an instant win combination. In general, I’ve seen more abuse from HB than OA, but that isn’t to say that OA is bad. Rather I am saying that in the wider spectrum of EDH hullbreacher was a bigger issue than opposition agent. If the RC was looking specifically at cEDH I believe that Thassa's Oracle , Demonic Consultation , or Tainted Pact are more likely to see a ban before opposition agent with my money on oracle
July 14, 2021 5:04 p.m.
Ah, well that I might be inclined to agree with actually. HB certainly impacts lesser power levels to a greater degree as many of the staple tutors for competitive play can be expensive.
Thoracle combo isn't an issue for competitive play though. That line of play is super risky already as if the attempt is stuffed it often means the player attempting the combo kills themselves by exiling their library and then dying on draw step. The risk with this line is so high actually that its more likely for you to lose when attempting it than to win in true competitive settings. Angel's Grace is a massive blowout and as it's half of a combo itself its a common early tutor target that functions as a silver bullet while also setting up for a game winning combo with Ad Nas.
July 14, 2021 5:11 p.m.
Hb vs oa vs to see this is exactly why we need a green 5/5 flying dragon that makes treasure tokens to completely balance out the format. It's just a little over powered so we cane tone it down with a cmc of 7.
Hmm maybe that's how it happened... ponders
July 14, 2021 5:36 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #21
jaymc1130 while I certainly saw how busted Breacher and Oppo Agent were and wanted a ban. I didn't expect Breacher's popularity in non-cEDH tables. In hindsight the accessibility of cards like Windfall , Whispering Madness , Reforge the Soul , and staple casual commanders like Nekusar just make me feel dumb to not see this being banned.
July 14, 2021 5:54 p.m.
I think it's more that Narset and Notion Thief exist and present a similar game winning line of play limited considerations for how impactful the flash component of the card would be.
I absolutely expected OP Agent to get the ban hammer, but since all these other means to do the same thing exist with Hullbreacher I just expected it to become a staple busted menace of the format just as those similar options are.
July 14, 2021 5:59 p.m.
It's OK SynergyBuild don't feel dumb.
Here have some kool-aid it's green your favorite
After you finish it I'll give you a treasure token ok?
---gets hit in the head by the thrown cup---
Maybe that's how it happened.....
July 14, 2021 6:04 p.m. Edited.
The merits of the ban in general are solid based on impact and performance, but the continued precedent of now HB, PE and Flash being banned across Commander are really begging the RC to see the light and create a separate list for cEDH specifically. The very idea of legislating the rules of Commander based on casual play impact isn’t tenable long term. There is a distinction within the format…it’s time for the RC to acknowledge it and alleviate this self inflicted problem that is bound to grow deeper in the future.
July 14, 2021 6:44 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #25
jaymc1130 there's plenty opportunity to tap out past turn 1 in cEDH:
Force of Will , Force of Negation , Pact of Negation , Fierce Guardianship , Deflecting Swat , Misdirection ...
Notion Thief also has flash, right? And I was taught that it's better to draw cards than to ramp, so Notion Thief should be at least as big of a problem as Hullbreacher ... However, 4 mana is significantly more than 3 in formats that care about being efficient, and spending resources on ramping might be worse than spending them on securing cards in hand, but Wizards should have known that ramping without spending extra resources is among the most broken things in Magic, they've known that since the original Moxen.
Azdranax cEDH is not a separate format. It's a different philosophy on the same format. It's using the rules of EDH (which is a casual format by definition, as you can read here ) with the mindset of a competitive format like Legacy. By definition, cEDH is a misinterpretation of how the format is supposed to be played. The most competitive players, however, are usually the most vocal about what they don't like, and have gotten really good at kicking up enough ruckus to change what they don't agree with. That's how Flash got banned. The RC doesn't typically consider cEDH because they don't regulate the format to be compatible with cEDH. cEDH is a just a community response, that explicity uses the exact same rules for differently-themed games. I think that's also why Opposition Agent is not banned in EDH, because that is specifically only dangerous in cEDH, and a lot less potent against some Ally tribal deck, or whatever casual battlecruise deck EDH was intended for as a format.
If you're looking for a 100 card singleton format that's aimed at competitive play and doesn't use a casual banlist, try Canadian Highlander. It uses the Vintage banlist, which means just no Shahrazad , dexterity cards, ante cards and cards with the Conspiracy type. But if you want to play Commander of any kind, you're bound by the RC's banlist, by virtue of format philosophy.
July 14, 2021 7:54 p.m.
Free counters are not an excuse to tap out in competitive settings against the most skilled opponents for a very simple reason. This limits the number of possible responses you might have to a given threat and massively alters the math of the equation. Going from calculating (on average) 15 or 20 possible responses per opponent down to 4 or 5 has huge implications. It encourages players to attempt to go for a win because the odds have now increased well past the 50% point and it's suddenly become more mathematically likely that your attempt will resolve and succeed than not where the alternative calculation is going to put those odds of success around 20-30% rather than 70-80%. It's one of the most common mistakes players make in competitive settings.
It's not about whether or not you have a response that needs mana. It's not about whether you have a response at all. It's purely a math and statistics issue that dictates tapping out as fundamentally incorrect.
This is backed up by statistical win rates as well over the course of several thousands of games worth of tracked data. If you're relying on that free counter you have in hand to protect against a win for a full turn cycle against 3 opponents of the highest skill level playing the most powerful decks in the format you've generally lost on the spot for choosing to opt into that situation. What typically happens is one player attempts the win, there is a stack war, you wind up forced to use you free counter. The next player in turn order untaps, everyone is now down resources from the stack war, multiple players are tapped out, most of the potential interaction is spent, the player untapping goes for his win attempt and since there's very little potential left that any player can stop him that player just wins.
Tapping out and relying on a free counter actually creates the kind of situations where you lose the game by force where simply not tapping out would have discouraged the attempts by opposing players altogether purely because the math (without them having perfect information and knowing opposing hands) dictates the odds of a successful attempt are low.
July 15, 2021 2:16 a.m.
Yeah that seems like it should be expected tbh.
jaymc1130 says... #1
plakjekaas
To be fair, on this site I was probably the biggest complainer when it came to Oppo Agent (and Hullbreacher).
I don't play a single uniform list or net deck when I play cEDH. Everything I play comes from out groups lab. I didn't complain because the card nerfed the styles of play I was used to either...
I complained because I immediately realized how busted these cards were and knew instantly that the cEDH community would take way too long to realize the potential that I already saw and that meant I was going to stomp everyone I played even harder than I already was. And I did, to the tune of something like a 70% win rate on untap...
I complained because these cards were so good and I was the first person to realize the precise ways in which their existence would warp the format and that would make games boring for me as I consistently crushed the souls of opponents in repetitive fashion over and over again to the point of staleness. All the meta "shake ups" you mention were things I predicted about 2 days after the cards were spoiled and I've been right on every account since then. As more and more players have realized these same things the entire format has become less varied overall and more oriented on these two cards as the most common game winning threats to employ because they simultanesously disrupt other potential game winning threats.
July 14, 2021 1:59 p.m.