Is this a Turn 5 format?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 28, 2016, 10:40 a.m. by Argy
Most of the decks at my LGS win by Turn 5.
Is that normal?
I was hoping for something that would go for at least as long as a casual Standard game.
EpicFreddi says... #3
Well it depends on the playgroup and/or the deck. My Narset deck could potentionally win by turn 4; my Ally-deck can take up to 20 turns.
We limited ourselfes to one endless-combo per casual deck, so we wouldn't be stuck in an infinite "draw-go".
July 28, 2016 10:47 a.m.
Lilbrudder says... #4
Top tier combo decks can average between a turn 3 or 4 victory. Why anyone would bring that to commander night is beyond me but commander can be a turn 3 format depending on your playgroup
July 28, 2016 11 a.m.
Lilbrudder says... #5
Top tier combo decks can average between a turn 3 or 4 victory. Why anyone would bring that to commander night is beyond me but commander can be a turn 3 format depending on your playgroup
Why does this copy stuff keep happening?
July 28, 2016 11 a.m. Edited.
Commander decks at the upper end of the spectrum can win in 3-5 turns with relative easy. However, when you factor that you're playing a format with 3 or 4 other players, it's pretty darn foolish to try to go for an early as fuck win. People will have some degree of reactive cards. You also paint yourself as a giant target if you generate something like 6+ mana by turn 1 or 2.
July 28, 2016 11:07 a.m.
I wish my LGS was more casual, then.
It used to feel that way, but now everything is combos.
July 28, 2016 11:08 a.m.
griffstick says... #8
I think it's normal. They all are trying to win something so they want to win more then to have a fun casual game
July 28, 2016 11:12 a.m.
Lilbrudder says... #9
Yes, but its not hard to get to to 4 mana on turn 3 and Buried Alive then Reanimate for Necrotic Ooze or Entomb then Reanimate a Boonweaver Giant on turn 2. The fact that disruption is needed that early in the game makes it a turn 3 or 4 format. However, at most LGS I have gone to a turn 5 or 6 is about the average for a deck to win the game on unsuspecting and proactive opponents.
July 28, 2016 11:14 a.m.
grumbledore says... #10
...of all of the possible Reanimate targets, why Boonweaver Giant? i know its off topic but i couldn't help it.
July 28, 2016 1:27 p.m.
Lilbrudder says... #11
The combo is long and complicated but Boonweaver Giant and a sac outlet can put every creature into play in a single turn and win the game. I grabs Pattern of Rebirth, which attaches to boonweaver, you sac boonweaver with something like Viscera Seer, tutor for Karmic Guide, which brings back boonweaver, sac it again for Reveillark and so on until you have assembled an infinite life loss combo around Fiend Hunter and Blood Artist
July 28, 2016 2:12 p.m.
Commander as a casual format shouldn't be that fast. I play games that take awhile to play out xD
As a competitive format then yes, it is. However that's a different ballpark in itself
July 28, 2016 2:57 p.m.
Megalomania says... #14
Most people start getting into the format with a "casual" mindset. It's quite natural that some, if not most, will get to appreciate it to an extent that they want to build better, more efficient/consistent decks. And it's not just because they have become competitive. Some, like me, use deckbuilding to express their creativity.
July 28, 2016 5:59 p.m.
The other thing is that the whole "playing for fun vs playing to win" mentality is a bad one to have. The idea that it has to be one or the other is stupid in that I can't go into a game of commander and both play to enjoy myself but ultimately aim to win. Some of the best games of commander I've had are "competitive" games. Everybody is laughing and being stupid, but the actual quality of the plays is just higher and people have more expensive decks. It's not like "all of a sudden its a competitive game, I have to sit here with my stone face on and can't have any fun becuase I need my razor sharp focus."
July 28, 2016 7:29 p.m.
Surely you can build decks of different levels for different games.
I know that's not a skill that everybody has, but you can learn to do it.
I can use Standard as an example.
The deck I build for FNM is very competitive. It aims to shut my Opponent down.
I have a more interactive deck to play against my buddies at home.
Fun is subjective. Me thrashing my friends wit my tournament deck is not fun for me. It shortens the game and doesn't challenge my player skill.
July 29, 2016 12:16 a.m.
Argeaux: I'm not talking about using unbalanced decks though. What I'm saying is that there are a lot of people out ther who think that fun and competitive are mutually exclusive.
I think the key thing here is that you want to be playing a casual deck and you're coming up gainst decks which are designed to be more competitive. In this case yes, it will be "not fun" as there is a discrepency between the kind of game you're after / equipped for and what actually happens.
And yes, I very much do believe that there is a skill to be learned in deliberately underpowering decks to keep them within what your social contract has defined. For example, thats why I play a voltron deck as one of my casula deck. By it's very nature, it has a glass ceiling that is quite hard to break through in comparsion to something like a pure combo control deck, which I play competitively.
It sounds like you need to talk to the rest of your playgroup about what poeple are expecting when they come to play. And it also sounds like people should be aware of each other's decks so that if somebody sits down with a casual spectrum deck then the other player(s) shouldn't then pull out their fastest, most competitive decks.
July 29, 2016 12:29 a.m. Edited.
Actually, no.
What it sounds like is that I shouldn't play EDH as it's a Turn 5 format, and I don't enjoy games that are that short.
It's the same reason why I'll never play Modern or Legacy, which are Turn 4.
My post was in response to your playing-for-fun/to-win false dichotomy.
July 29, 2016 1:05 a.m.
How was what I said a false dichotomy? What I said wat the exact opposite of that.
If you're going to get shirty about the fact that your LGS is playing more competitively than you'd like, they play at home with your buddies and your casual deck.
But there's no need to get bitchy at people who are here to offer constructive critisim to effectively what is a "wah, my LGS isn't how I remember it and now I'm sad" kind of comment. Jeez.
July 29, 2016 1:46 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #20
This can be resolved multiple ways:
1) If this is a tournament style of play, you'd be dumb not to bring a competitive deck to the table.
2) If it's a casual get together with people at your LGS, trY implementing ground rules and you have every right not to play with someone using a 'busted' deck if you are looking to test out your casual deck
3) If you do sit down with people who play these types of decks and actually commit to playing with them, and they refuse to take their decks down to 70% for the sake of, "I have to win", that's your own damn fault and you should have known what you were getting into.
4) Find another playgroup. A group that suits your casual style and you'll find out these can be people you generally can get along with better.
5) Build a better, more competitive version of your deck or another deck. Step up to their level. Sometimes, it forces them to slow their combo a bit in case you're playing combo as well so they don't get blown out.
6) Finally...just bring the hate, all the hate! Play a deck that just wrecks their shenanigans and only their shenanigans. Let them know, if they are going to play that deck, you're going to play your deck that is centered around beating that very deck. Maybe they'll get the hint, or they'll just flip tables for being pansies. For example, a deck that is centered around Graveyard looping and lifegain and deck searching, you play every card in your deck that denies them of that. Or how about Mikaeous combo, it just gets wrecked by cards like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. Then they might get the hint, and you'll find, 'STAX' is actually a very viable deck that is made to slow down games and now, you'll have a slower format and a more competitive deck and you'll become happier because you'll get that high level of play and you'll get longer games.
Epochalyptik says... #2
It's entirely dependent on your meta. More competitive metas tend to have shorter clocks. More casual metas have a greater degree of variety, but tend to have longer games.
5 is in the more competitive end of the spectrum.
July 28, 2016 10:46 a.m.