Is this infinite combo tournament legal?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 28, 2020, 5:53 p.m. by StopShot
Hello, I have an infinite combo where all the cards are legal, but I don't know if using the combo itself is legal.
My combo uses: Swift Warkite + Pulsemage Advocate + Altar of Dementia
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The combo works by casting Swift Warkite whose ETB puts Pulsemage Advocate onto the battlefield with haste. I then sacrifice Swift Warkite to Altar of Dementia to mill an opponent by four cards. I can then activate Pulsemage Advocate's ability to return three of those cards to my opponent's hand to return the Swift Warkite to the battlefield. While that ability is on the stack I'll then sacrifice the Pulsemage Advocate to the Altar of Dementia so that my opponent mills one card, and so that when Swift Warkite re-enters the battlefield I can return the Pulsemage Advocate back to the battlefield and repeat however many times I like until my opponents no longer have any cards in their libraries.
But what do I mean when I ask is this combo legal? Let me demonstrate a simple combo to better explain what I mean. Take this as an example: Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin
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Deceiver Exarch is enchanted with Splinter Twin. By tapping Deceiver Exarch I can produce a token copy of it which also makes an ETB trigger. I can use this trigger to untap the enchanted Deceiver Exarch so that I can use its ability again and again and again until I have infinite Exarch tokens. Since Splinter Twin gives the tokens haste I can swing for lethal damage on my next combat step to win the game.
When it comes to infinite combos you don't need to play them out in detail, describing the process over and over again. So long as you can demonstrate the first loop you can shortcut to any arbitrary number of cycles so that you won't be penalized for slow play. The Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin combo is a notable example where this rule applies as it would probably take 10+ minutes in a commander setting just to demonstrate a necessary number of cycles needed to produce enough tokens to win the game.
I'm wanting to know if my infinite combo can use the same shortcut principle as the Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin combo. Obviously, I can demonstrate a single cycle that puts me back where I was before, except my opponent now has 5 less cards in their library. The only issue is each time this combo makes a cycle I must put three cards into my opponent's hand. The issue with this is, there's a possibility I could put an instant-speed artifact-removal or graveyard-hate spell into their hand halfway through the combo giving my opponent the ability to counteract the combo before I have fully milled their library. (Creature removal can't stop this combo.) Because of this possibility I feel my opponents have a reasonable argument to make in asking that I play the combo out cycle-by-cycle rather than shortcut to the end.
Because Commander is a multiplayer 100-card format I feel that if I were to play out this combo, cycle-by-cycle, it would take too long to do and thus this infinite combo wouldn't be legal to use in a tournament setting. Is it possible to shortcut with my combo or not?
You should not be able to shortcut this - each time you execute the combo, there’s an element of random chance - what card is milled. Since you cannot make an absolute determination as to what the boardstate would be after X iterations of the combo, you’ll have to play it out.
May 28, 2020 6:55 p.m.
TypicalTimmy - it’s not technically illegal, but non-determinative infinite combos can get you a game loss for slow play. There’s a Legacy Deck - Four Horsemen - that goes infinite, but involves shuffling your library each iteration of the combo. Because it has that element of randomness, you can’t shortcut it. The deck is considered pseudo-banned. Sure, it’s legal, but by executing your victory, you engineer your own defeat for slow play.
May 28, 2020 7:06 p.m.
@TypicalTimmy You'd otherwise be correct when it comes to most mill combos, but this one bypasses the issue of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre or Gaea's Blessing.
There's two ways I can mill either card. Milled off by sacking Swift Warkite and milled off by sacking Pulsemage Advocate.
You're mostly likely to have the grave reshuffle get milled off by the Warkite, so let's start with that scenario. Pulsemage Advocate is in play with haste and I sac the Swift Warkite making you mill four which includes the Colossus. While grave-shuffle ability is on the stack I can activate Pulsemage Advocate's ability and of the three cards I pick from your grave I make the Colossus one of the cards so it goes into your hand. I then sacrifice the Pulsemage Advocate making you mill one. Then Swift Warkite re-enters the battlefield bringing back Pulsemage Advocate with haste. At this point I could continue to keep milling you at instant speed while your shuffle is on the stack, but instead I let it resolve. Your colossus is no longer in your grave or library and I have a Swift Warkite I can sacrifice again to restart the mill process all over again.
What if I mill it on the rare chance of sacrificing Pulsemage Advocate? Well, there's no way to restart the combo in such a way that would allow me put the Titan in it's player's hand as their graveyard will get shuffled before Swift Warkite's ability can trigger. That being said there's still a work-around to bypass this scenario. If I discover my opponent has a graveyard shuffler I can instead mill a different opponent separately for Pulsemage Advocate mills, while using Swift Warkite mills on the grave-shuffle player as I have already demonstrated how I can disable that effect whenever Swift Warkite is doing the milling. Even in the scenario where all my opponents have grave-shufflers I can instead use Pulsemage Advocate to mill myself as the four cards milled with Swift Warkite are enough to keep the engine still going.
This is a mill combo that actually bypasses these effects which is why I want to run it in the first place.
May 28, 2020 9:11 p.m.
griffstick says... #6
I came up with a complicated combo quite a while ago. Its Viscera Seer, Mortuary, Deathrender, and Harvester of Souls.
this is an infinite loop where you equip the Deathrender to any creature. For this instance let's say we equip it to Noxious Gearhulk, sacrifice it to Viscera Seer, scry goes on the stack, then Deathrender goes on the stack, then Harvester of Souls goes on the stack, then Mortuary goes on the stack. And they resolve like that.
Mortuary puts the creature on top of your library, then you draw that creature, then you put it into play attached to Deathrender, then Noxious Gearhulk's trigger resolves, then you scry. Rinse wash and repeat
May 28, 2020 10:18 p.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #7
The reason Four horseman is considered slow play isn't that it is non-deterministic. It is that it is non-deterministic AND returns the game to a previous state. This is the same effect as having not done anything, therefore; you are doing nothing to change the game state each time you wiff after getting the Narcomoebas out.
gitrog moster is non-deterministic, but because you can draw cards and sculpt your hand as you do the combo you can change the game state and it isn't slow play. The Paradox Engine loop in some pre-banning Captain Sissay decks was non-deterministic, but you could change the game state each time you did the loop until you got what you needed. This loop is on par with those, not four horseman. Attempting to win via this combo should be tournament legal.
May 29, 2020 12:01 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
Shoot didn't ensure my links were the right links.that deck link should instead be the card The Gitrog Monster.
May 29, 2020 12:02 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #9
And Captain Sisay. Maybe I shouldn't post from bed. It seems my quality control goes down.
May 29, 2020 12:04 a.m.
fadelightningmm says... #11
I think the answer to your question is conditional. I don’t think this combo is able to be shortcut because there are cards that shuffle in from graveyard (like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth)
May 29, 2020 8:33 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Oh yeah, it definitely isn't shortcutable. That is what I was talking about with "deterministic" and "non-deterministic". Deterministic loops have a definite ending state. These loops can be shortcutted because you can describe all actions and what the end of the loop will be. Non-deterministic loops can not be shortcutted, but as long as you are changing the board state while you do the loop it is not slow play.
May 29, 2020 10:03 a.m.
@fadelightningmm, You'd otherwise be correct when it comes to most mill combos, but this one bypasses the issue of Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Gaea's Blessing.
There's two ways I can mill either card. Milled off by sacking Swift Warkite or milled off by sacking Pulsemage Advocate.
You're mostly likely to have the grave reshuffle get milled off by the Warkite, so let's start with that scenario. Pulsemage Advocate is in play with haste and I sac the Swift Warkite making you mill four which includes the Eldrazi Titan. While grave-shuffle ability is on the stack I can activate Pulsemage Advocate's ability and of the three cards I pick from your grave I make the Eldrazi Titan one of the cards so it goes into your hand. I then sacrifice the Pulsemage Advocate making you mill one more card. Then Swift Warkite re-enters the battlefield bringing back Pulsemage Advocate with haste. At this point I could continue to keep milling you at instant speed while your shuffle is on the stack, but instead I let it resolve. Your Eldrazi Titan is no longer in your grave or library and I have a Swift Warkite I can sacrifice again to restart the mill process all over again.
What if I mill it on the rare chance of sacrificing Pulsemage Advocate? Well, there's no way to restart the combo in such a way that would allow me put the Eldrazi Titan in it's player's hand as their graveyard will get shuffled before Swift Warkite's ability can trigger. That being said there's still a work-around to bypass this scenario. If I discover my opponent has a graveyard shuffler I can instead mill a different opponent separately for Pulsemage Advocate mills, while using Swift Warkite mills on the grave-shuffle player as I have already demonstrated how I can disable that effect whenever Swift Warkite is doing the milling. Even in the scenario where all my opponents have grave-shufflers I can instead sac the Pulsemage Advocate to mill myself as the four cards milled with Swift Warkite alone are enough to keep the engine going.
This is a mill combo that actually bypasses these effects which is why I want to run it in the first place.
May 30, 2020 7:40 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #14
Since people keep using the word "colossus" when talking about the Eldrazi titans, let's talk about the colossi. Darksteel Colossus and Blightsteel Colossus have a different ability than the Eldrazi titans. They have a replacement effect that means they will never go to the graveyard. You will not have to deal with someone reshuffling their library, but they are cards that you can not get out of the library via milling. You will either need to force them to draw the colossus, or wait an additional turn after giving your opponent a massive amount of cards in hand.
StopShot says... #2
@TypicalTimmy, No, that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if the combo is legal as in if it would be allowed to be shortcut or not. If not I'd have to play it out cycle-by-cycle which could warrant slow play and make the combo illegal.
May 28, 2020 6:49 p.m.