Is Thrasios Ban-able?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Dec. 3, 2016, 7:24 p.m. by StoicRemora
A friend of mine is convinced that Thrasios, Triton Hero is busted beyond belief but I'm not so sure. I realize he can combo with things pretty easily since his ability only requires colorless mana, but I think it's still a fair card to play. What are your thoughts? Is he an out-of-control powerhouse or just another tier two scrub-lord?
Thrasios is in colors which can easily get infinite mana, or VERY plentiful mana:palincron (and similar) + deadeyekruphix, god of horizons
so once you have enough mana you basically draw 90 percent of your deck, drop all of the lands (including a reliquary tower) and setup to win next turn.
it's not too broken as the opponents have 1 turn to figure it out, but it DEFINITELY closes things out immediately.
note: you can cast him and activate the same turn (no tapping), so it can come out of nowhere. I'd run cavern of souls so it can't be countered
December 3, 2016 8 p.m.
Tasigur's already a mana sink commander sitting at tier one. He does much of the same thing. The easiest way to get the mana is through the palinchron variants. That tends to be fairly easy to assemble, incredibly redundant, and quite resilient. Whatever Thrasios can do, Tasigur's been doing for quite some time now.
The combo in Tasigur I've seen is to repeatedly loop Reality Shift and Beast Within to destroy all permanents and then exile all libraries. Thrasios can't do that unless you blink something like E Witness. Tasigur's just simpler.
In the end, whatever Thrasios can do has already been going on for some time AND hasn't proven to be too insane.
December 3, 2016 8:03 p.m.
@ae0n5105. There's 0 reason why you shouldn't win the same turn as you get infinite mana with Thrasios in most circumstances.
December 3, 2016 8:04 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
He certainly has the potential to be on par with Tasigur. The issue though is that Thrasios lacks black. Which really hurts the deck's ability to match Tasigur.
However, thanks to partner, you can pair him with Ravos, Soultender, which grants you both black and white. Which I believe are great colors to pair with Simic.
Also, the addition of white grants you the extra inf-mana combo of Lion's Eye Diamond + Auriok Salvagers.
With all this though, Thrasios isn't bannable at all. They'd ban Tasigur before they ban Thrasios.
December 3, 2016 8:36 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #7
banning in a format where you can only have one is probably the dumbest thing ever. i play Prophet of Kruphix still since i play with friends. every time i play it one of 3 to 7 people get rid of it before i can really get anything done with it. i will grant Thrasios, Triton Hero could be the commander so it can always come back but people will know it is coming and hold onto a counter that cant be countered or since its a combo deck they wait for a combo piece. if you are always playing new people a combo deck can be awesome but as a combo player who plays with the same people most the time i can tell you they are easy to stop when people know what is coming and you have to fight off 3+ decks...
December 3, 2016 9:37 p.m.
@Bhaal666 - Bans make sense even in singleton formats. There are very few people that believe, for instance, that Fastbond being legal in the format would be healthy.
You seem to play in pretty big groups. Most EDH games are around 4 players. In a world like that, running away with prophet or any other card is a little bit easier. Besides, prophet isn't even a problematic card once you get high enough in competitiveness.
Oh, and dealing with a card like Thrasios, Triton Hero is pretty difficult once infinite mana is achieved. If he resolves, you can just keep on using his ability on top whatever removal spell threatens to kill him. Once he hits the board, he's doing his thing.
December 3, 2016 10:07 p.m.
There are easier/more reliable ways to just win the game if you achieve infinite or an absurd amounts of mana.
December 3, 2016 10:12 p.m.
Steelspike says... #11
Blue Sun's for 50 (or whatever), play Lab Maniac and Archaeomancer to get back Blue Sun's...Raging_Squiggle
December 3, 2016 10:47 p.m.
For blue, any card that make your opponent draw x cards like Stroke of Genius and Blue Sun's Zenith. They automatically lose if they go to draw and have no cards left in their library. There are other ways too but you can just end up drawing a bunch of cards if you have to, which makes it flexible.
December 3, 2016 10:50 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #14
Correct. And what if you don't have either of them in hand? That's where Thrasios comes in. We didn't say he's a win condition with infinite mana. (Unless you already have LabMan). But he gets those win conditions with that mana. Exactly like Tasigur does.
December 3, 2016 11:33 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #15
Correct. And what if you don't have either of them in hand? That's where Thrasios comes in. We didn't say he's a win condition with infinite mana. (Unless you already have LabMan). But he gets those win conditions with that mana. Exactly like Tasigur does.
December 3, 2016 11:36 p.m.
He is a good commander but Oona, Queen of the Fae is way better plus she gives you access to so many ridiculous combos and tutors. Nonetheless she can still be handled and is not on the banlist. Trickbind for example or simply never let the infinite combo happen (every colour has suitable removal for this)
December 4, 2016 4:37 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #17
The issue with Oona, and Tasigur, for that matter, is that they both require colored mana to go infinite. Thrasios does not. Which adds to the versatility and infinite mana combos you can run, like Rings of Brighthearth/Power Artifact + Basalt Monolith/Grim Monolith.
December 4, 2016 4:46 a.m.
Well you can go multiple ways. Phyrexian Devourer + Triskelion + Necrotic Ooze, The classic mana combos you mentionend, then there is many more combos that come out of nothing. It is really not a big deal to get that coloured mana for oona. Thrasios is really good but only if you splash black for tutor power
December 4, 2016 5:30 a.m.
The reason it doesn't matter that the mana has to be colored in tasigur is how easy and redundant the palinchron/peregrine drake set up is. High tide, phantasmal image, eternal witnesses, ghostly flicker etc can all be used to combo. In addition, they're set up easily by tooth and nail. That effectively makes the infinite mana part a one card combo. You only need to tutor for the tooth and nail to win. That's a lot easier than rings and monolith or whatever. Oh, and once the combo goes live and you've drawn your deck, being able to cast counters and pay for the uuu in blue sun's is pretty nice.
December 4, 2016 8:11 a.m.
@Steelspike um...BSZ shuffles into the library, so you can't Archeomancer it back??? Am I missing something?
December 4, 2016 10:58 a.m. Edited.
Gods... Bsz shuffles, you use tasigur or thrasio's ability, draw bsz. Oona is not an awful commander but she's nowhere near as good as the other infinite sinks.
December 4, 2016 11:04 a.m.
Lilbrudder says... #22
Thrasios is significantly better than tasigur, its not even close...Itts hilarious to me that so many people still haven't figured out how clearly superior he is in almost every way. With that being said hes not banworthy as Zur is still the best commander by a fair margin IMO
December 4, 2016 11:38 a.m.
Lilbrudder says... #23
Oh and Goblin Cannon>BSZ as a finisher too as it doesn't require a mana filter as well to end the game. Saving a card slot is important.
December 4, 2016 11:46 a.m.
If Thrasios is bannable, then why are Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Narset, Enlightened Master allowed to run around and cause misery? My point is that there's MUCH worse out there than Thrasios, regardless who the partner is.
December 4, 2016 11:49 a.m.
Narset isn't even tier 1.
Anyway, I'm curious to see why some of you think thrasios is better than tasigur.
December 4, 2016 11:52 a.m.
TheDevicer: Even if Narset isn't tier 1, her reputation is greater than Thrasios.
December 4, 2016 12:37 p.m.
Thrasios definitely isn't bannable but it's a good card. I feel like the card advantage its ability gives is better than tasigur though considering you have the option to scry away cards you don't want to draw, making it much easier to cycle through your deck to get the pieces you need for infinite mana, and you don't have to hope your opponent gives you the right card from your graveyard. Also, the colorless mana requirement isn't a huge deal but it adds a wider variety of infinite combos that you can use to win as well as making it less resource intensive to use the ability to cycle through your deck.
December 4, 2016 12:38 p.m.
Lilbrudder says... #28
Why Thrasios is better
1) Better colors, white+BUG gives much improved hermit druid and also facilitates boonweaver combo and red+BUG gives Splinter Twin and kiki pod.
2) Thrasios costs only 2 mana and doesn't require fill the graveyard cards to come into play early
3) Tymna is quite useful (as poor mans edric) at times and having 2 cheap commanders in the command zone makes Dread Return MUCH better.
3) Much better drawish ability. Tasigurs ability is really janky outside of infinite mana situations and the color requirement is problematic. It also allows your enemy to give you cards of thier choosing, whereas Thrasios scry 1 then either ramp or draw is fairly useful at all times.
4) Colorless mana sink>colored mana sink
5) Mana sink is not dependent on graveyard to work
Okay now Tasigur's advantages
1) 4/5 beatstick
2) Can come into play for 1 mana with some set up, (but unconditional 2 then 4 is still better on average IMO)
3) Nothing else...
Tasigur is still a borderline tier 1 commander because of the strength of BUG and having a mana sink, but hes weaker than Thrasios in power level. Between Thrasios and Leo hes lost about 90% of his competitive niche. Even Sidisi has taken some of his fast combo thunder with recent printings since she functions as a Food Chain outlet and is faster as a combo general.
On another noteNarset is not really very competitive anymore. She is a svourge of casual tables hut that doesnt make her tier 1 or bannable.
December 4, 2016 12:42 p.m.
Steelspike says... #29
Yeah, so sorry NecroPony. I forgot Blue Sun's shuffles back in.
You are the far superior magic-person-thing.
So, you draw your library exactly, play maniac and cast any of the other draw spells you just drew off Zenith...
December 4, 2016 1:01 p.m.
I don't think Thrasios is ban-worthy. It requires other cards to work with it (infinite combos-note that this alone won't net you the game. You need another card) and 4 mana, regardless of color, is quite the investment.
December 4, 2016 1:02 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #31
I wouldn't say he's as good as Tasigur. But they do have their own strengths which make them both powerful and worth running.
December 4, 2016 1:02 p.m.
The thing is, if you have infinite mana and thrasios on the board, you're almost guaranteed to win. Even if someone tries to stop you from winning, all you have to do is respond by drawing cards until you get an answer, then you just drop whatever your wincon is. Most times, once a deck with blue in it has access to infinite mana and infinite draw, there's absolutely nothing that can stop it.
December 4, 2016 1:07 p.m.
Currently at work, but i promise a full response later
December 4, 2016 1:25 p.m.
Megalomania says... #34
IMO, the choice between Tasigur and Thrasios all boils down to color. The access to black gives a combo deck a lot more consistency and resiliency. And for that I think i'd pick the former. I am not that concerned with the ease of activating their abilities. You just need the right infinite mana combo in the deck for that. T&N is one of the simplest and most effective enablers to combo off/get infinite mana and both commanders have green so they are pretty much tied in that aspect.
December 4, 2016 8:12 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #35
Megalomania. True, however thanks to the Partner mechanic, Thrasios can also have black. In addition to either white or red. Which makes it as consistent and resilient if not more so.
December 4, 2016 8:49 p.m.
Lilbrudder says... #36
Thrasios is not a UG commander. He is a UG+your choice of any two other colors. It would be silly not to partner him with a black commander. I have heard a few people say that Tasigur is better, but noone has provided a reason why they think this.
December 4, 2016 8:49 p.m.
If I may add a touch of context, the potential partners are Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper, Ravos, Soultender, Reyhan, Last of the Abzan, Silas Renn, Seeker Adept, Tymna the Weaver, and Vial Smasher the Fierce. Of these, my inexperienced eye says that Ikra can help stabilize while you set up your combo; Reyhan, Silas, and Vial Smasher don't offer much; and Tymna and Ravos offer and maybe some combo ability, with Tymna being more generally useful.
December 4, 2016 9:37 p.m.
This comment is largely replying to Lilbrudder, but applies to much of the conversation so far.
So, Tasigur, the Golden Fang vs Thrasios, Triton Hero, which on is the better commander? They're quite comparable given that they have similar color identities and serve as quasi-win cons once you have infinite mana to throw at their abilities. Lets think of them in that light since most competitive decklists I've seen tend to gravitate towards that area. In truth, the BUG color identity allows you to do quite a few things. Leovold, for instance, is a pretty nuty general that has made waves through Doomsday oriented lists based on locking people out of drawing.
With that in mind, let's talk about these guys as infinite mana sinks. I'm leaving out bomberman as a combo as it's not really on plan, relies on the yard, can't protect itself, and doesn't have redundancy.
Mana Combos:
This combo requires lots of mana to get started and it can be stopped through effects like Hushwing Gryff. That's its main downside. On the other hand, it's the combo that protects itself the best, its pieces have the most utility, and it's incredibly redundant. Many decks that run this combo will lean on things like Phantasmal Image, High Tide, Peregrine Drake, Eternal Witness, Ghostly Flicker, etc. for added insurance. The combo is also incredibly easy to tutor for as it consists of basically anything you want. Still, the main appeal comes from the fact that you can Tooth and Nail into the combo, effectively making the whole affair a one-card combo. You can also tooth and nail Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir onto the field for protection. Since BUG doesn't have access to silence, this serves as its main plan for that effect. Finally, the Palinchron combo generates colored mana, something that allows you to cast your entire library after the draw without putting something stupid like Gemstone Array into your deck.
These combos have pieces that have some degree of utility while also being somewhat easy on the mana requirements. The Rings plan can even go for cute stuff with Cabal Coffers+Deserted Temple on the side, but that's not necessary. Just like the palinchron plan, these combos are also vulnerable to some hatebear stuff. Its also notable that these combo can't protect themselves. Finally, they generate colorless mana. Ive included them as one as they are rarely run alone. Unfortunately, they dont have overlap.
Cheap combo with the potential to generate colored mana quite often. When you dont go on the actual infinite mana plan, it can also generate you lots of advantage. Sticking something like Mana Drain on the scepter can prove backbreaking if the game is going long. The main downside to this combo is that its hard to recur. Once Dramatic reversal is exiled, its incredibly hard to recur unless you run something dumb like Pull from Eternity. Given all of that, its rarely run as the only mana combo.
When it comes to these combos, Tasigur is basically required to use the Palinchron plan while Thrasios can run any of the above. From the lists Ive seen, Thrasios players seem to favor running the rings and scepter combos. My personal preference is to use the Palinchron plan, but arguments can be made for any of the 3. In the end, Tasigur running the palinchron plan and Thrasios relying on the rings + Scepter plan ends up taking roughly the same amount of card slots while also demanding some affordances in deck building.
The way I see it, theres no clear winner in this category.
Color Identity
If you're running Thrasios, Red gives you Gamble and Vial smasher. Not all that great.White gives you swords, path, enlightened tutor, eladamri's call, silence, and some other stuff if you want it. Should you go with the palinchron route, Ravos, Soultender can add extra resiliency. If youre ok with dropping white, Silas Renn, Seeker Adept can do similar things with artifacts for. Otherwise, Tymna the Weaver can sometimes serve as card advantage. All of these partners have worthwhile effects in rare circumstances. They are included for color identity, not because they are powerful enough to deserve a slot.The big thing to come away with is that including white gives you access to two cards that are particularly noteworthy: Silence and Enlightened Tutor. The tutor is basically a necessity if youre going with the RingsScepter setup in thrasios. It does nothing to facilitate the palinchron plan. Even if tasigur could run the enlightened tutor, he wouldnt as the deck benefits more from creature tutors.You could make a case for swords being amazing, but given that Reality Shift occupies a similar space in Tasigur while also acting as a game finisher, Id say that the point is rather moot.
In the end, I'd say adding white is good but not insanely so. In this regard, Thrasios does indeed have the edge.
The Generals Themselves
Im going to ignore the partners here as Ive already briefly gone over them.Neither Tasigur nor Thrasios are generals you're likely to cast early. It's just a bit foolish to tap out to cast them in the early turns of the game. In reality, youre far more likely to set up your board or interact with your opponents during turns 1-3. At this point in the game, youre not going to be activating the abilities of these two generals. It costs far too much mana to do so.
Both generals are incredibly cheap to cast. Tasigur, however, has the potential to dominate the board quite often in competitive games. Hes regularly the largest creature on board. Even chips from him can add up. In comparison, Thrasios' 1/3 body is pretty mediocre.
Id like to make the point that Tasigur's mana cost isn't all that relevant. He's played through infinite colored mana, so that's not an issue when comboing and Delve helps keep him at decent costs. In fact, if you actually want to use Tasigurs ability for value, it's often necessary to clear the yard of rubble.
Later on in the game, Id say that a single activation from either commander gives you roughly the same amount of value. Thrasios ability is relatively straight-forward and easy to evaluate. Its Tasigurs ability that many people fail to evaluate properly. I often hear people say that because the choice of what card gets returned falls on your opponent, the ability is terrible. In truth, the best way to use the ability is to utilize the political nature of the format to your advantage. If you promise one player that should he give you the Abrupt Decay sitting in your yard, youll use that card on another players high-priority permanent.
Im not usually a fan of people who play a commander making elaborate defenses of their pet commander, but Im trying to remain as objective as possible here. Having played Tasigur for something like a year, I can safely say that his ability is incredibly good. The potential of recurring a card and using it several times to target a single player is annoying. Couple that with Tasigurs 4/5 body and you see why Tasigurs pretty great at making a single player feel like shit. Once people are aware of this, they wont readily piss on your cheerios. It usually takes some convincing for them to willingly anger you.
Id rate the abilities that Tasigur and Thrasios have as being relatively equal. Tasigurs body and constantly cheap casting cost put him over the edge for me, however.
Final Thoughts
The big thing that matters with the whole Tasigur vs Thrasios is graveyard hate and finishing pieces. Unfortunately, Tasigurs ability relies on the graveyard. It isnt as relevant as you might think, however. Common hate cards like Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus require specific timing to pop. Since youre going about Tass activations one at a time, youre often going to be able to deal with these pieces better than you think. Its really Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void you need to worry about. If youre going to play Tasigur, youll need to make some affordances for enchantment hate.Then theres winning the game. Using Tas/Thras abilities a bunch doesnt actually win you the game. You need some way to actually finish the game. For Thrash, the most common win con is casting Blue Sun's Zenith on all of your opponents. Given that your combo runs off of colorless mana in many cases, you may run into problems from time to time trying to achieve the required to cast BSZ. The easiest way to solve this problem is to use the rings combo to cast the scepter combo. In addition, your mana rocks, Candelabra, and Time Spiral help, but it isnt guaranteed. In addition, should you need to cast counters during the comboing itself, you might run into some kinks every now and then. This is a minor consideration to make.
In contrast, Tasigur doesnt have issues with colored mana. Using loops of Beast Within and Reality Shift to destroy all opposing permanents and then exiling enemy libraries is pretty darn amazing. In addition, you can just rely on BSZ for the classis draw kill.
Ive tried being as fair as possible in going over the differences between Tas and Thras. Once youve thought about the above, youre free to make your own decision concerning which general you prefer. For what its worth, I still like Tasigur better.
December 5, 2016 9:35 a.m.
I still don't see the point that you're trying to make, everything you just stated either makes thrasios clearly better or makes him and tasigur equal other than that fact that you need colored mana to cast any win cons you draw off of thrasios. I fail to see how this makes him worse than tasigur seeing as you need infinite colored mana anyway for tasigur, maybe I'm missing something but how does color restriction make any difference?
December 5, 2016 12:11 p.m.
I didn't want my post to sound too biased, so I tried to edge away from talking about my personal preferences and beliefs too much.
Essentially, the reason I think Tasigur is better than Thrasios is that very few of the common yard-hate cards in EDH turn him off outright. That's the biggest complaint I hear people throw at him.
I'm also of the opinion that the best infinite mana combo available to bug is the palinchron combo. It's simply the most resilient option you can turn to. It also has massive utility as cards like Deadeye Navigator, Eternal Witness, Phantasmal Image, High Tide, and so on can all be used for fantastic effect even outside of their respective combo. Compare that to Dramatic reversal where it would often be foolish to cast it early. I love the option of running out Eternal Witness or something early. The best part is that these combo pieces are also creatures, meaning you can sometimes go on a beatdown plan using them. Using Tasigur + Deadeye, for example, puts players under considerable pressure to deal with them. Oh, and they also protect each other.
Yes, the combo requires the most up-front mana to get rolling, but I find that to be mitigated by just how busted of a card Tooth and Nail is. It turns on your combo or fetches you protection.
Yes, Thrasios can rely on the exact same combo, but I've yet to see lists that do. Legit all the ones I've seen default to Rings+Scepter as their main loadout.
In addition, I value the option to use Tasigur as a 1-mana 4/5 a ton. He lets you pressure people throughout the game while still keeping your shields up.
Finally, when you desperately need a card off of the respective abilities of Tasigur or Thrasios, the likelihood of you getting value from Tas is way higher than Thras because if there's some problem that's going to fuck you up, it likely extends to the whole board. Someone will be okay with giving you even Cyclonic Rift if it means saving their own ass.
I don't think that the inclusion of white warrants not having access to Tasigur. The value you get off of Silence isn't worth the opportunity cost to me.
December 5, 2016 12:35 p.m.
Lilbrudder says... #41
TheDevicer: Thank you for the in depth response. You definitely bring up some good points. After reading your post I can appreciate Tasigur enough to agree that in a political control/BUG storm build he is the better option. Having the ability to recur removal is very good and the BUG mana base is much kinder to High Tide. I maintain that this kind of build is his only niche anymore.
Thrasios+Tymna reanimator is a significant upgrade over Tasigur as the addition of bombs like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, creature based reanimation in Loyal Retainers, and additional tutors in Enlightened Tutor makes a big difference. Once you add Boonweaver Giant to the mix Thrasios+Tymna blows him out of the water. It allows you to play cards like Heliod's Pilgrim which grabs Animate Dead, Pattern of Rebirth and Power Artifact. Adding Angel of Glory's Rise allows you to assemble infinite mana combos (Trinket Mage grabbing LED & Auriok Salvagers) and boonweaver combo (Academy Rector and Cartel Aristocrat) with a simple Buried Alive + Reanimate . This is on average much easier to pull off than T&N as being 4 mana allows you to pack protection for the combo turn and run less ramp.
Thrasios also does Hermit Druid combo really well.
Dread Return into Angel of Glory's Rise reanimating Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Laboratory Maniac, and Grand Abolisher produces a rock solid win condition that BUG simply cannot match. This win condition also overlaps with Thrasios infinite mana combos as Basalt Monolith serves as a combo piece with both Power Artifact and Mesmeric Orb as a backup hermit druid enabler.
I think at the end of the day, despite thier similarities, Thrasios and Tasigur pilot very different decks. Tasigur is very much a viable tier 1 commander. There is just less reason to play him as a reanimator general (Thrasios+Tymna) or as a doomsday general (Leovold) anymore since better options have been printed for those archetypes.
December 5, 2016 3:14 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #42
My Thrasios+Ravos deck runs Hermit Druid. It's the perfect colors for the combo, and very fast.
MollyMab says... #2
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
December 3, 2016 7:50 p.m.