Kethis is worse than Karador, Change my mind
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on June 25, 2019, 7:06 p.m. by GhostChieftain
I mean sure he can pump out more cards from the yard than Karador, but in all reality most of my favorite reanimate targets arent legendary so it is super conditional. If kethis isn't just a flash in the pan, it wont be because he reanimates... it will be some sort of gravestorm shenannigans. What are your thoughts and opinions?
I think Kethis will have staying power due to one important factor: availability. Not everyone can get their hands on Karador, Ghost Chieftain any more, whereas there will be a lot more Kethis in rotation following m20. Im gonna talk a little bit a bout it in an article ill hopefully post early next week :)
June 25, 2019 7:52 p.m.
Kethis, the Hidden Hand can set up some dumb loops with Saffi Eriksdotter and Aluren , which if you're tailoring your deck to Aluren already, isn't too shabby. But yes, Karador, Ghost Chieftain will be better in most circumstances.
June 25, 2019 8:20 p.m.
TheBloopKing says... #5
- Kethis is a part of a endless combo. Karador isn't
Kethis, the Hidden Hand + Ashnod's Altar / Krark-Clan Ironworks / Phyrexian Altar + Hope of Ghirapur
Mox Amber also works with Krark-clan
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Karador only hits 1 creature on your turn. Kethis also hits enchantments, artifacts, lands, and planeswalkers and as many as you can play
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Karador only makes himself cost less. Kethis makes all legendaries
I will give Karador, Ghost Chieftain the fact that it costs less to make a okay-good deck. But my personal opinion is Kethis, the Hidden Hand is better substantially
June 25, 2019 9:13 p.m. Edited.
TheBloopKing says... #6
Kethis is looking to be the brand new Breya, Etherium Shaper where you can go endless a bunch of different ways. I seriously wouldn't recommend sleeping on Kethis. Deck looks absolutely insane
June 25, 2019 9:25 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #7
I think a more interesting question here (a less obvious one- yes, Karador is way better unless you’re playing a self-piloting, one-note combo deck) is which of these is best- Kethis, the Hidden Hand , Captain Sisay , or Sisay, Weatherlight Captain . I think there’s a strong case to be made for all of them and I’d be intrigued to hear your thoughts on the matter.
June 25, 2019 11:28 p.m.
Honestly I don't think we should be putting Kethis against Karador because the two are definitely much different decks. Primarily due to the fact that Karador is gonna be a creature based deck while Kethis is almost always going to be a much more combo based deck. If anything, I'd say Kethis' main draw will be turning Kamahl's Druidic Vow into a reusable draw engine. Not to mention the loop mentioned previously. Or utilizing Saffi Eriksdotter into some broken hijinks.
June 26, 2019 12:03 a.m.
Also Kethis takes a lot less set up to be as effective as Karador will in a lot of cases and doesn't need creatures in the yard to be cast turn 3 or be useful.
The drawback to Kethis is just the fact you have to make a choice of two cards to exile to use his reanimation ability, but he aows you to hit any legendary in your graveyard and allows for multiple legendaries per turn. Not to mention he's also an Elf, which is a super relevant creature type.
June 26, 2019 12:07 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #10
Once again, dbpunk, it’s well more interesting to ask whether Kethis is better or worse than our previous “legend tribal” commanders; the Sisays. Kethis and Karador play so differently- Karador trying to grind out consistent value and Kethis looking to win the game at least most of the way in one explosive turn.
I’d say, my personal verdict, is that Sisay, Weatherlight Captain may be my favorite of the three, as it finally allows me to play Arvad the Cursed alongside Tariel, Reckoner of Souls and Edric, Spymaster of Trest . Why?, that seems ridiculous! Does it? Two words; Legendary Politics/Kingmaker.
June 26, 2019 7:10 a.m.
Honestly I think Kethis still acts much more differently than those two. While Kethis works great as legend combo, those act as a way to find said legend combo pieces. Also, by that same logic, any five color commander is better automatically than any other commander with any similar ability.
June 26, 2019 7:20 a.m.
ThoAlmighty says... #12
They’re for different decks as well, doesn’t make much sense in my mind to compare them. Kethis supports superfriends/legendary tribal, with reanimation as a combo/value alternative. Korador is first and foremost about reanimation.
June 26, 2019 10:03 a.m.
Kethis doesn't create infinite loops. His ability only gives the legends in your graveyard the ability to be cast when you activate it. If a legend goes to your graveyard after he's been activated, it won't be castable from your graveyard unless Kethis is activated again.
June 27, 2019 2:26 p.m.
TheBloopKing says... #14
Arby_Q the cards don't lose "you may play this card from your graveyard" when they hit the battlefield or go into the graveyard. They keep that ability till the end of the turn so, yes. Kethis does create the infinite loop
June 27, 2019 6:21 p.m. Edited.
TheBloopKing says... #15
I agree with past comments. Comparing the two commanders when their decks do two different things is hard.
Karador supports a reanimation deck way better and has a way wider range on styles of decks that you can make. Like I've made a boardwipes deck with Karador that was meant to wrath and gain constant value
Kethis supports legendaries, in my opinion, the best. He kinda builds a aristocrat deck, similar to Karador, but the two decks are entirely different. Kethis tends to combo off and make sure creatures stay on the battlefield rather than gain value off its graveyard. Ideally you only want to use Kethis's ability twice to 3 times in a game. Once or twice to get ahead, a final time to go off.
Kinda repeating what I've past said. I still think Kethis is better due to how quick the deck can perform and lock out a game. But at the end of the day, both are very good in their respective shells. I just love that Kethis, the Hidden Hand gives legends a competitive deck (im in a firm opinion that Sisay tutors is too easily shut down, and slow).
June 27, 2019 6:33 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #16
Btw, speaking of Kethis (shameless plug) I’ve made this weird legendary/political deck. It uses New Sisay, but Kethis is an important tutor target (Sisay starts with 3 power). Take a look if you’re interested (My Politics Game? Legendary.)- if not interested, sorry for the distraction.
Karador was actually a serious consideration for the deck. He may well have gone in if Sisay could tutor him up.
June 27, 2019 8:29 p.m.
ThoAlmighty says... #17
@ZendikariWol: sorry to ruin the moment but Sisay, Weatherlight Captain doesn’t include herself when checking for colors, she can only start with 2 cmc stuff. Fblthp, the Lost makes a decent first tutor, as it lets you refuel a bit and get another power.
June 28, 2019 1:58 a.m.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/core-set-2020-release-notes-2019-06-25
Kethis's last ability affects only legendary cards that are in your graveyard at the time it resolves. Legendary cards put into your graveyard later in the turn won't gain the ability. If you play a legendary card and it returns to your graveyard, it won't have the ability anymore.
Google is your friend, friend.
June 28, 2019 2 p.m.
I was going to point it out myself but Arby_Q beat me to it.
All the infinite speculation around Kethis is dead wrong. Once a card changes zones in Magic, the game no longer considers it the same "card." It's a new object with no memory of it's previous existence. In order to loop with Kethis you'd need to continuously exile 2 new legendary cards from your graveyard, which is obviously infeasible for an infinite combo.
Since he reanimates so many things at once, you could probably enable other infinite combos pretty well by dumping your deck in your yard with Hermit Druid , Mesmeric Orb , and the like, but Kethis as a combo piece just can't happen.
I'm surprised so many people missed that. New objects is like MTG rules advice 101.
June 29, 2019 10:59 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #20
sonnet666, as one of the people who fell for this, let me explain.
The misconception is largely a matter of memory failure- remembering the card’s text as “you may cast legendary cards from your graveyard this turn,” rather than the actual text, which is much less exciting.
shadow63 says... #2
I think most of the time karador is gonna be the option you want. But if you want to build legendary tribal in abzan kethis is the undisputed choice
June 25, 2019 7:41 p.m.