Mass LD and infinite combo etiquette.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 16, 2016, 10:40 a.m. by Dredge4life
I am part of a commander group at my LGS. It's fairly casual, but not to the point where there's no mass LD and infinite combos mixed in. My question is how far would be acceptable to take this. Does your group allow this, and if so by how much? Comments must appreciated.
People house rule weird things. If the group is happy with it, let it be. If you want to play with that group, you can always abuse on that meta. In a group with no combos or LD, ramp is disproportionately strong.
January 16, 2016 11:17 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #4
I mean...I think you just bring this to your playgroup and discuss it with them. Their reactions should be helpful to you when deciding how you want to proceed with the deck. You could always build it anyway and reserve the deck for a more "competitive" EDH setting if your group isn't amenable to it.
January 16, 2016 12:56 p.m.
theres one person in our play group who has a habit of building unfun decks. a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician deck that runs a ton of Winter Orb like cards, and a Narset, Enlightened Master that runs a bunch of mass LD. everyone hates being in a pod with him bc no one gets to play anything, but we all just deal with it. im all for infinite combos, but loathe mass LD
January 16, 2016 9:34 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #6
Thanks once again for all of your input guys. It's great to see the different point of views on the subject. I guess for now I'll hold off on the LD until the playgroup comes to an agreement.
January 16, 2016 9:53 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #7
For Land Destruction, if it makes you win that turn or a turn or two later, then sure do it. Like using Jhoira of the Ghitu to suspend an Obliterate and an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. This is fine, because you are going to win in a few turns of attacking. Otherwise, if you do it out of spite/anger, to prolong the game, or because you think it's "funny", then no, don't do it.
For infinite combos, it's whatever. Usually they result in that player winning soon. Which is fine. But if the player could have won already and decides not to in order to prolong the game, or pretend to play "God" in the game with his infinite mana/life/untap/spells/etc... Then no, don't do it.
January 17, 2016 1:06 a.m.
Dredge4life says... #8
@Raging_Squiggle The example I have is one where I'm playing my Daretti, Scrap Savant deck and have Obliterate and Darksteel Citadel in my hand. I have Wurmcoil Engine in the yard and two opponents dead-set on killing me. I have Daretti in play. Would this be an acceptable time to use Obliterate? I definitely don't find LD funny, I try to only use it when necessary.
January 17, 2016 3:33 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #9
If it makes you win in a few turns of attacking, at least as far as your knowledge goes of them being able to bounce back, then sure that's fine.
January 17, 2016 5:41 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #10
Well my 95 land deck with Maelstrom Wanderer grabbing a card like Apocalypse has made quite a few people salty...
I wish it was cut and dry like that, but people don't like decks that try to win as effectively as possible, and MLD/stax tend to be the least fragile ways to win the game as your opponent is highly limited on ways to rebound.
January 17, 2016 6:14 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #11
I prefer Maelstrom Wanderer with Charmbreaker Devils + Time Warp and 97 lands, personally. ;)
January 17, 2016 7:48 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #12
Basically, it depends on the group and your ability to be reasonable and polite about everything else you're doing.
I do not have a consistent group, though some people I play with more than others. I consider infinite combos a normal and healthy part of the format. If I feel a playgroup is really casual or not ready for it I'll point out the combo when the pieces show up (which could mean they're revealed, on the stack, etc.) so my opponents know they should do something. I'm not going to say which piece of the Duskmantle Guildmage + Mindcrank combo you need to remove, but I'm going to tell people (especially if they're younger players) that it allows me to kill opponents at instant speed.
This way, people don't feel like I was toying with them or being unsporting. In a less casual group I'll combo off without the warning.
Mass LD, I usually will tell people before choosing commanders that it's in there, or at least that the deck is "no holds barred" or "unapologetically mean" or "an asshole deck". My Daretti list did make people salty because one of the win conditions was hard-locking opponents out of permanents, lands included. It ran mass LD to trip people up, too. I didn't apologize for this since I'd given warning in advance and I could explain exactly why it was in the deck. Most people will scoop when they're locked. If not, they're kind of the asshole at that point for keeping the game going out of spite but you as a player have to deal with that either way.
I'd highly recommend switching decks after using mass LD. Give people time to cool off.
@Raging_Squiggle: Still the funniest decklist I've ever seen. I laughed for fifteen minutes.
The "win after mass LD" rule depends on the group and the decks involved. I have used mass LD as a tempo play, but it is decidedly feel-bad. Some people will get saltier than others and it's on you to get a feel for whether your opponents will take it personally or be able to keep those negative feelings within the context of the game. In my Daretti list it was part of a hard lock, but that didn't actually win the game and again... in a control list you might not have a quick way to win after that. You're establishing the lock and opponents can choose to try and break it. I think this can be fine, but if you bring it into a new group you can expect some people to get upset.
January 18, 2016 1:35 a.m.
PookandPie says... #13
I've played with a guy who drew and cast an Armageddon on his fourth turn because it was his only 4 drop and he wanted to be on curve. Unfortunately, he had no more lands in hand, nor did he drop any mana rocks the turns prior, so he basically land-locked himself for 4-5 turns, which made it hilarious when he drew a Coalition Relic the turn after casting Armageddon. The Chainer player quickly recovered from this using the Phyrexian Arena he cast on his third turn (yes, he cast an Armageddon with a manaless draw source on board for his opponent) and the Armageddon-caster never got the opportunity for a comeback.
Those kind of things- just really poor uses of fairly powerful cards, bug the hell out of me and our playgroup. Locks are completely different: If someone establishes a lock, the vast majority of the time, they've earned it. If someone's got Darksteel Forge, Mycosynth Lattice, Nevinyrral's Disk out with open mana for counter spells behind it, odds are the players without indestructible permanents are going to concede.
Combo is about the same way. We have a guy who basically builds his decks to win unless someone stops him, and then I have decks that combo as well though I try to Always Combo Responsibly™. We always have those moments, after a sweeper, MLD, or failed combo attempt by 1-2 players (instant speed shenanigans ftw), or something, where everyone's just kind of, "Eh, this game can end now." So, with Always Combo Responsibly™, I'll do my best to pop that combo and take us to our next game. Y'know, because reasons.
As an extension, we generally treat MLD the same as combo, or at least I do. Always Cast Responsibly™.
The logo for Always Cast Responsibly™ has Uril, the Miststalker suited with Shield of the Oversoul and/or Battle Mastery, flipping off Bruna, Light of Alabaster.
January 20, 2016 2:53 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #14
"If someone's got Darksteel Forge, Mycosynth Lattice, Nevinyrral's Disk out with open mana for counter spells behind it, odds are the players without indestructible permanents are going to concede."
I threw in an Unwinding Clock for good measure and for maximum evilness. For extra fun, add Clock of Omens and use Kuldotha Forgemaster to assemble the whole thing at instant speed. But I digress...
... yes, you need to not be a dick about this. Really, that's what it all comes down to. It's up to the playgroup what constitutes being a dick, but that rule remains.
January 20, 2016 3:26 a.m.
readerrw07 says... #15
My meta tends to frown on mass LD, though spot land destruction to deal with Maze of Ith and the like is all fine. Infinite combos are discouraged early into the game. My personal feeling toward infinite combos depend on how many cards are needed. If a game ends up going "I play cards x and y, nobody has a counterspell? Okay I win" Or comboning Deadeye, Prophet of Kruphix, and Venser, though that isnt a problem as much anymore :P
MagicalHacker says... #2
If your deck is letting people not play magic by playing lands, tapping lands, casting spells, attack with creatures, or all of the above, people will get butthurt. There's no way around that. How would you like to be invited to play tennis and then watching your opponent beat the crap out of you since he's making you wear a straitjacket?
That said, I still play decks that can only win by destroying all permanents except for a commander that is a three/two turn clock.
January 16, 2016 10:55 a.m.