Morality Of Going Infinite
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on April 6, 2016, 7:59 p.m. by Dredge4life
So we've all been there when someone combos out or takes infinite turns during a game of EDH. I've recently been guilty of several Deadeye-Chron infinite mama combos due to my Simic combo deck, and I've run into various different opinions on combos. Some players said that it was "no fun" and that it should be banned. Some players were fine with it and let it happen so I could get the brief feeling of accomplishment. Unfortunately there was more of the first then of the second so my question is this: what do you think? Are infinite combos a good thing, a bad thing or a neutral thing? Are they out of the spirit of the format, are they mean, or are they really no different then getting someone from 40 to 0 by attacking? Do you let it happen, or refuse to play if it happens? I'm interested in your thoughts. Post them in this thread if you want to voice your opinion. Thanks so much, as always.
I stay away from infinite combos in all formats. I mean I have some ready, but I normally just sideboard them to shut down douchebags.
April 6, 2016 8:07 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #4
For me and my playgroup it's essentially what canterlotguardian is saying but boiled down to:
If you are comboing off with a clear win con; fine, if you are comboing off and don't know how you are going to win; stop wasting our time.
A small addendum is that my playgroup gets extra salty when it comes to extra turns because we had someone in our playgroup who would take infinite* turns and have no idea how he was going to win so he took each individual turn and made a whole thing out of it. He was taking infinite 30 minute turns. About the 3rd turn with no clear wincon we all just scooped and played a new game.
*infinite meaning he would take one turn, then draw into another extra turn spell and repeat so he never knew.
April 6, 2016 8:15 p.m.
nobodygaming says... #5
I think if the group all accepts a player is looping turns they should just 'draw out' their deck to show their win con. Of course at that point someone counters their win con and let's them sit out of the game because they are out of cards
April 6, 2016 8:27 p.m.
I have a few infinite combo decks and different combos got different reactions. It breaks down into 3 combo types:
My UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary deck would use the damage method utilizing Intruder Alarm and Imperious Perfect to create infinite elves and send about 1000 at each opponent. That was actually received as "ok, we let that one happen. Our bad. Everyone kill that thing next game!"
My Azami, Lady of Scrolls deck was met with less amiable results. I did the infinite play by myself type combo. It was more of a "Really, you're doing THAT to us?" The same deck was able to keep retrieving Time Warp or Temporal Manipulation from my graveyard using Crystal Shard and that ETB retrieve an instant/sorcery card. That was also met with more of the "Oh, COME OOOOON!" Attitude. This was usually because Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir was already on table and it turned into the "look what I can do" show. It's kinda a jerk move on both occasions.
The third type is more of the inevitable everyone knows what you are going for and its really a matter of the "can we stop him?" race. This would be Obzedat, Ghost Council using Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond to go infinite. People usually said "ok, you got there before I could stop it".
Usually if it wasn't game ending right away it was groans.
April 6, 2016 8:30 p.m.
It should also be noted that I went on a combo rampage and had my playgroup ban Vendilion Clique due to me using Pili-Pala and Grand Architect for infinite mana to continually bounce and play Clique enough time to hit all players then hit them all with copies of Tunnel Vision. It's not exactly infinite but they all preferred Azami
April 6, 2016 8:35 p.m.
My playergroup is rather hardcore. We essentially play with an 'anything goes' type of mentality. We only really start to groan when people take 15 minutes to resolve stuff. Those are some nice Lim-Dul's Vault piles, mate. You about done there?
I'm toying with the idea of writing an article on why it's ok to play hateful decks in any meta atm. Any interest?
April 6, 2016 9:03 p.m. Edited.
It depends on the event in which you're playing:
If it's a tournament, then go ahead and wombo-combo if you can;if it's a MTG night with your friends, infinite combos will bore those nights up... until maybe you don't gather at all and we all know there's no Magic without The Gathering.
So, Tournament approved, no doubt. Your goal there is to win, and doing so si surely the best way to have fun in a tournament.
April 6, 2016 9:06 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #10
I have a personal philosophy that if I put a potential infinite combo into my deck, then I'm not allowed to put in tutors. That way I have a way to end the game when I need it, but I can't go tutor->tutor->win.
I also try to make sure any combos I create can be disrupted using "normal" cards and strategies.
Every deck needs to have a way to win the game. Sometimes that's an infinite combo, and that's okay. Just don't be a dick about it.
April 6, 2016 9:13 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #11
TheDevicer hell yeah that sounds great. I'd love to read that.
April 6, 2016 9:16 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #12
Much of its already been said, so I'll keep this short. Basically, clear it with your playgroup. Whatever the consensus is goes. If it's not fun for the majority of people involved it's not worth it.
April 6, 2016 9:19 p.m.
Megalomania says... #13
Like TheDevicer, my group is pretty much anything goes as long as the deck follows the banlist.
We occassionally allow guys who have Griselbrand or Emrakul in the deck if we all know the only deck they have are build for Duel Commander.
The only unwritten rule in my group is that combo decks, especially fast ones, get all the hate in the world. Infinite combos are fine but you better not be salty when everyone starts dogpiling on you every single game.
I've learned to deal with it and made a Zedruu deck whenever the mood of the group seems to lean towards more fun than competitive.
April 6, 2016 10:23 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #14
It's part of the game and neutral. Combo pieces are just threats that demand an answer Or they win the game in an efficient way.
April 6, 2016 10:43 p.m.
My opinion on combos is this: every EDH deck should potentially have one game-ending (not necessarily infinite) combo for a stalled board state. If your friends really detest combo, then only use that combo in a situation where everyone is miserable and all you're doing is putting the board out of its misery.
April 6, 2016 10:49 p.m.
I run a whole slew of infinite combos (all of which win quickly) in my artifacts edh. My group adapted to hate it out. So I put in a stax package. Maybe the worst decision of my magic career haha. Lesson is, if combos are off in your playgroup, don't push the envelope too much.
April 6, 2016 11:49 p.m.
I personally keep a infinite combo in my decks just because the play groups I have been in are the kind that just like to stall the game with massive amounts of board attrition (constantly mass LD/recurring Cyclonic Rift every other turn) and at some point i just want it to be over so we can move on with our nights
April 7, 2016 12:38 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #18
I think they're totally fine. Personally, if they stopped being used in EDH (which will never happen) I'd quit the format.
April 7, 2016 2:18 a.m.
It is another way to win. Especially if you build a deck with infinite combos that combos off later in the game. It can be really tough to get to that point in a creature and aggro heavy meta. I play tasigur with some combos and it is fine until I counter enough threats and then I am target number one because everyone knows I might win the next turn out of nothing. Imho this is a fair way to play combo and should absolutely not be banned by the playgroup because fun is an individual thing
April 7, 2016 3:05 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #20
Maybe I'm a weird one, but I absolutely love combos, whether they're infinite, pseudo-infinite, or non-infinite. When it comes to EDH/Commander, I only have one card-related pet peeve, and that's MLD/Stax when the game can't be closed out quickly. If you make it so I can't do stuff on my turns and it's gonna take you 15 turns to kill everyone, then I will view that game as less enjoyable than most.
However, my only big pet peeve is conceding for reasons other than emergencies. Whether it's conceding before lethal damage is dealt to prevent the player from getting damage triggers, conceding to take spells off the stack to hurt a player that would win otherwise, or just conceding because the path to victory is more difficult than a stroll in the park, I cannot see a mature player conceding except in situations where they need to leave.
April 7, 2016 10:01 a.m.
MindAblaze says... #21
Time restraints? Sometimes we concede in our group so we can move on from a slog-fest to a fresh start. If it's 10 on a work night, and we can quit, or spend an hour battling back (while one of the other players has already been knocked out) we're probably going to let the guy with the huge lead win and move on.
April 7, 2016 10:18 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #22
I will usually concede when I'm dead to board but only if they point lethal at me.
I'll stay with it until they declare attacks/targets at me then it's a "whelp GG"
April 7, 2016 10:52 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #23
Was that in response to me or in general, MindAblaze?
April 7, 2016 11:41 a.m.
MindAblaze says... #24
To you. I was just suggesting that when someone has an obvious advantage and they're pressing it to where they've got 2-4 turns to win and I've got no answers in sight rather than slog through a few more turns or into a potential board reset once someone had already been knocked out, I'll concede and/or suggest we let that person win so we can get another game in.
April 7, 2016 11:53 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #25
If I were at that table, in a losing position with you, and I asked you to join me in trying to figure out a solution to give ourselves a chance or at least make the winning player have to use resources to kill each individual player to give the last player a fighting chance, how would you respond?
In a way, I have a personality that cares more about the journey than the destination, especially in a game like Commander.
April 7, 2016 1:41 p.m.
I'm fine woth them as long as they make sense with the deck you're playing. If you run black and have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion in there and they add nothing but the combo? Yeah, I don't like that shit
April 7, 2016 1:51 p.m.
But I run a Rakdos deck that centers around infinite damage and the combo takes at least 3 cards the do so
April 7, 2016 2:02 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #28
See the thing for me is that I was introduced to EDH as a format where you do big, crazy things. It doesn't get much bigger or crazier than an infinite combo. So in my mind, playing EDH with no infinite combos would be like playing Legacy without Force of Will or Brainstorm, or Vintage without the Power Nine. It's a pale shadow of what it should be.
If you hate infinite combos so much, just play Standard or Draft.
That's my mindset. I recognize that other playgroups may not have that same idea, but I do still believe that playgroups which disallow infinite combos are missing out, and failing to grow as Magic players.
Also helps that I originally played in a group where someone ran a ridiculous Azami, Lady of Scrolls deck, and another person had Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with tutors and Triskelion. That never struck me as wrong, or un-fun. It was just EDH. You learned what the dangerous cards and plays were, and then if someone got out of hand, the table could gang up on them. That's what's nice about a multiplayer format.
April 7, 2016 4:19 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #29
If there is a legitimate opportunity for us to win, and
If continuing to play the game means we're not keeping another player/friend from enjoying another game,
Then yes, of course I'm going to see the game out. But if I can scoop and let someone win so player number 4 can play another game, and it makes the difference between going home at 1 vs 2am, then I'll do that.
April 7, 2016 5:04 p.m.
I don't mind infinite combos at all.They only thing that I don't like are one-card + commander combos. It's ... tacky. "Hey guyz! I got dat card with mah commanduh! Anyone got an instant to stop me? No? I guess I win then."Some decks/commanders will have infintie combos in them just 'cause. If Roon of the Hidden Realm is your commander, why wouldn't you put in Deadeye Navigator and Peregrine Drake? Any abzan deck will probably be playing with Altar of Dementia, Sun Titan, and Saffi Eriksdotter, even if they haven't built around the combo.Infintite combos will also end a stalled game and keep super nasty commanders like Omnath, Locus of Rage from winning too often.
April 8, 2016 2:55 a.m.
I am personally totally OK with infinite combos, but I am not the biggest fan of playing them. If I ever have a deck with an infinite combo, it must either be:
a. REALLY elaborate (deadeye + palinchron into sidisi dread returning tasigur into lab man into strix) OR
b. Used only if necessary; or a kind of coincidental combo that's in there for the cards, not the combo itself.
I just don't feel ok going "You all die now" when the game is just beginning.
April 9, 2016 10:52 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #32
Well Kala, it's cool... the game's not beginning, it's ending! Your opponents just might now know it.
April 10, 2016 12:59 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #33
Most often the combos I use are used as a reset button as well. I feel like this line of thinking is what separates competitive and casual.
I call it, competicasual.
We play the game to have fun but we try and play with the best built decks that we can.
April 10, 2016 1:09 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #34
Golden Rule for EDH: "The 70% rule".
If you're in a group that primarily dislikes infinite combos in general, then tune your deck down a bit.
If you're in a group that's competitive, screw them, do your thing.
What I do, is I have a straight up combo/control deck. It focuses on winning via combo. But, in a more friendlier playgroup, I may take out some combo pieces to bring the deck down to a much lesser level, still leaving in the main wincon of the deck, although. But I also keep those cards I took out and set them aside for if I play in a group that's more competitive, I'll swap out the lesser cards for my more competitive version before playing.
At tournaments, I definitely make my deck 100% at its best and don't feel a bit of remorse comboing off to kill them.
April 10, 2016 2:53 a.m.
I'm with NobodyPicksBulbasaur. I don't mind infinite combos in the least, but personal policy says I'm not going to ever tutor for them. From a deckbuilding perspective, I typically either put a couple of infinite combos in the game or a couple of tutors. With the exception of my competetive Captain Sisay deck, which has both (well, not really infinite combos, but Living Plane and Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite pretty much lock the game out for urrbody else), but that's for tourneys and such.
April 15, 2016 9:46 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #36
Now that I think about it, because of my desire to only play combo pieces that are good individually, I don't have any infinite combos in any six of my decks (unless you count Darksteel Plate + Pariah's Shield)!
Which is weird cause I love going infinite! Maybe I should build that Tasigur, the Golden Fang infinite combo deck that wins with Goblin Cannon after all...
April 15, 2016 10:45 a.m.
Dalektable says... #37
I dont have a problem with infinite combos...but im biased as that is how i win 65% or more games. One deck is BW Teysa, Orzhov Scion which I will tutor for pieces. Does that make me a bad person? Idk. I have won a couple of times w/out the combo with just synergy but thats unlikely. I also have an Arcanis the Omnipotent deck that wins via it + Mind Over Matter. However, that deck doesnt tutor but i do draw a LOT. It just plays as mono blue control though, it can win in a variety of ways that is just the easiest / quickest.
April 15, 2016 10:46 p.m. Edited.
readerrw07 says... #38
I only have a problem with infinite comboes when the game basically goes
Turn 1 tutor for Mindcrank
turn 2 tutor for Bloodchief Ascension
or similar setups where the only point of the deck is tog et out one or two two-card comboes immediately
canterlotguardian says... #2
As long as it ends the game, fine. If it prolongs it, but you're digging for your game-ender, then somewhat less fine but still fine. If you're just combo'ing off to prove you can or because you just want to, then yeah we're going to have a problem.
April 6, 2016 8:05 p.m.