Mutation in Edh
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on April 23, 2020, 8:28 p.m. by TheDarkPlague
Hey people!
I was wondering if the mutate mechanics was worth it in edh and what commander would make a better use of the mechanic.
What color should be included?
I was also wondering about a few interactions about mutation.
Does commander taxes need to be included in the mutate cost?
Is it true that if My commander is mutated (not sure if its the right word) and send back to the commande zone that all the cards will follow and are gonna be unusable for the rest of the game ?
Thanks guys.
I would assume for going to the command zone that any creatures mutated with your commander would just go to whatever zone your commander was going to be put into.
Afaik there are no spells that simply "put target Commander in the Command Zone" or anything like that so any time it would leave the battlefield it has somewhere it's supposed to go and then you redirect it to the command zone. Any other cards would just go wherever it was supposed to go.
April 23, 2020 9:29 p.m.
I just looked it up and Leadership Vacuum does, in fact, put commanders directly into the command zone. I'm not sure what would happen then.
April 23, 2020 9:45 p.m.
Some quick Google research looks like Leadership Vacuum would put the entire pike into your Command Zone but you would only be able to recast your commander.
This is a discussion specifically about Mutate and Leadership Vacuum: https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/fw9w3a/how_does_leadership_vacuum_work_with_the_new/
April 23, 2020 9:56 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #6
Nethroi, Apex of Death and Vadrok, Apex of Thunder seem to be the strongest and easiest to have functional. Illuna, Apex of Wishes might be another strong one. I wouldn't run the others as a commander unless you feel really attached to them.
Nethroi can simply act as a crazy strong reanimation spell. Since it works off of power things like Ghave, Guru of Spores count for 0. If you get some good mill going and a bunch of low and 0 power creatures you could cast Nethroi and bring 20 creatures from your grave. If someone board wipes you just do it again... He is definitely resilient. Speaking of board wipes you could also run the deck as board wipe tribal with creatures that like to LTB and ETB. Wipe the board, play Nethroi, rinse repeat.
Daedalus19876 came up with a very fun if gimmicky Vadrok here Endless Forms Most Beautiful: Vadrok EDH. I think at most tables it would be quite powerful.
There are problems with mutate. It is a very odd mechanic so you'll need to know your rules around it or end up with a lot of frustration. There isn't enough of it which is why I'd recommend against using Otrimi, the Ever-Playful. It has some good synergies but without more mutates its ability to bring them back is quite limited. The 2 I listed above want some mutate creatures in the deck but are also able to function as the only mutates in the deck if need be.
April 23, 2020 9:57 p.m.
Daedalus19876 says... #7
Okay so, as someone who built Mutate in EDH and is enjoying it immensely --
1) If your commander is mutated, and dies/gets exiled/etc, the commander card itself heads to command zone and the other cards mutated onto it go to the correct zone (graveyard, exile, etc). The exception is Leadership Vacuum, which WILL pull the rest of the pile into the command zone, leaving the non-commander cards stranded there forever. This also means that your commander will trigger "dies" abilities when it dies, even though the commander card returns to the command zone.
2) I'm going to have to half-agree with DrukenReaps here. I think Nethroi, Apex of Death and Illuna, Apex of Wishes are the most generally powerful. Brokkos, Apex of Forever and Vadrok, Apex of Thunder are both very good if built right, but are somewhat... odd. Casey4321's Brokkos Infect deck is a menace, and I'm VERY happy with how my own Endless Forms Most Beautiful: Vadrok EDH [PRIMER] deck is functioning so far! It's getting much less gimmicky and more focused as I test it more -- it'll never be truly cEDH, especially since I'm only using two of the three potential colors, but it can demolish most midpower and focussed EDH metas.
3) I definitely agree that you NEED to know the rules to play with mutate. It's a bizarre mechanic, which has a lot of odd interactions, and you won't get full value without exploiting the corner cases. But it also allows a lot of fascinating new combos, such as Dockside Extortionist + Lore Drakkis/Vadrok, Apex of Thunder + Snap to generate infinite mana! Or just Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker with Sea-Dasher Octopus ;)
April 23, 2020 10:29 p.m.
Daedalus19876 I wouldn't call my deck a menace... Decent maybe. Definitely fun!
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-forever-strain-brokkos-infect/
April 23, 2020 10:46 p.m.
I like the idea of using hydras or other 0/0 creatures with lots of +1/+1 counters, and then mutating stuff onto them for the power/toughness boost. I think that's good enough value, and it would go great with Nethroi. I don't know enough about how Mutate works to understand your combos, Daedalus. How does Kiki-Jiki with Sea-Dasher Octopus work? Thanks!
April 24, 2020 10:28 a.m.
kpres I'm assuming you flash mutate Kiki with the Octopus on top and then create infinite copies of itself (since the Octopus is non-legendary it can target itself with Kiki-Jiki's ability). Do this at the end step before your turn and you can attack with infinite #s of them (almost tried use the plural for octopus there but decided against it...).
It would work with any non-legendary mutate creature on top but your opponents would see it coming without the flash.
April 24, 2020 10:53 a.m.
That makes a lot more sense now! Thank you! I didn't realize Kiki-Jiki would be able to target itself. Cool!
April 24, 2020 11:15 a.m.
TheDarkPlague says... #12
mn6334 but how would using Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker’s ability then flash mutate Sea-Dasher Octopus on top would allow the creation of infinite tokens?
What’s the mechanic that would allow it?
April 24, 2020 11:41 a.m.
TheDarkPlague If you mutate a non-legendary creature on top of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker this makes a non-legendary creature that has the ability to and "create a token that's a copy of target non-legendary creature you control". It can now target itself to create a copy of itself and the copy will have the ability to create another copy and you can use this to create infinite tapped copies of it.
If you flash in Sea-Dasher Octopus and create the copies during the end step before your turn you will still have them during your turn because Kiki-Jiki's ability says to sacrifice them "at the beginning of the next end step".
April 24, 2020 12:21 p.m.
Daedalus19876 says... #15
TheDarkPlague: Until recently I was using this combo in my Vadrok deck, but I ended up cutting it because in most cases it's just too obviously predicted.
dbpunk says... #2
So mutate is a little weak in commander due to the lack of cards referencing it, but there are some cards that fit well into a lot of decks! If youre looking to build it, I would either say build in Sultai colors and use Otrimi. However, any tri color commander that isnt human should work.
If youre mutating using a commander with mutate from your command zone, then yes. Its an alternative casting cost.
Creatures that are mutated onto your commander wont enter the command zone, the same way auras dont enter your command zone. Im not as sure on this one, so you should ask a judge as well.
April 23, 2020 9:14 p.m.