Oko in cEDH settings
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 14, 2020, 5:41 a.m. by jaymc1130
If you're playing in Simic colors there's no real good reason to run Gilded Drake or Legacy's Allure in this card slot these days. Both of these options are far more limited in functionality as they can only handle commander specific issues while Oko, Thief of Crowns can handle an astoundingly wide array of situations, threats, and hate pieces. Homeward Path that's often run as a solution to theft effects essentially becomes a dead card slot in the decks that do run it when a commander is elked rather than stolen. Allure is extremely slow as an answer taking several turns to accumulate counters and an absolutely awful choice to take into opposing commanders such as Zur, Gitrog, or Kess. The Drake, meanwhile is a very poor answer to most partner commanders, particularly opposing Tymna decks that won't at all mind killing their own stolen Tymna and then beating your face in with the gifted evasive card advantage machine so kindly bestowed upon them. Neither Allure or Drake is a win condition in their own right, while a looped Oko is a win condition in the exact same way a looped Swan Song is a reliable win condition. The only downside for Oko in comparison to these other 2 options for that card slot in competitive decks in Simic colors is that Oko is slightly harder to tutor for by not being a creature, enchantment, or 2 cmc spell, and this is almost never relevant anyways.
Why it takes so long for the community to come around to these things is something that always mystifies me, but in this case particularly so. If you're in Simic colors Oko has been a clear and massive upgrade in that card slot and role for almost a year now and yet I see "competitive" lists in Simic colors running either of the other options over Oko more often than anything else.
So, I guess the question is: what is it that causes players to stick to clearly, objectively worse choices when the intention is to be as competitive as possible? Is it a nostalgia thing? Is it a comfort thing? Is it a herd mentality thing? Is it a "look at my ancient rare card for bragging rights" thing? I'm genuinely curious why it takes so long for these types of changes to take root as the standard option.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #2
I am a simic player, and I play both Oko and Drake. They are both good in their own right. And since Simic has a lot of lacking options to tutor for your wincon outright on turns 1-2, simic needs to slow down the game by stopping a couple premier plays from your opponent(s), to allow them to get to their wincons. Oko and Drake do just that.
As for the original question/post...I have to say, and I mean no offense by this, I find this whole thread to be a joke. Of course Drake SHOULD see play. Just because they are both forms of "removal", doesn't mean you play one over the other. For consistency basis, you don't just throw in 1 or 2 pieces of removal, and hope to draw them, you throw in more than that as to increase your probability to draw them or be able to tutor for them. Especially in Simic, without any other additional colors, you need a little bit of redundancy to ensure the odds work in your favor, especially in critical and key match ups.
August 17, 2020 9:26 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #3
August 17, 2020 10:10 p.m.
Still a fan of both if the deck has cards slots to allow playing both. I still think it's hard to go wrong with that, especially in Simic only.
I think it's only really a matter for consideration when only one card slot for that particular role is available and then there is a tougher decision to make. Generally Oko is the better all around performer, but deck construction (say with lots of creature tutors) can make having the Drake a preferable option at times if there's only one card slot available.
August 17, 2020 10:45 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #5
SynergyBuild I feel like too many people feel like: "Oh this one, singular card is going to drastically improve my deck and I will finally have that 1 answer I always needed to deal with [blah blah blah]" and just hope to draw into it...out of 92 other cards...by turn 3 or 4... What a joke. lol.
People do not understand that in singleton formats, you need that redundancy, especially in colors that do not have great answers to the vast array of things that will be thrown your way.
August 18, 2020 6:13 p.m.
Very solid point UpperDeckerTaco. Gotta play the odds game if you're looking to be consistent.
It's one of the main fundamental philosophies that deck builders make mistakes at. Sure it's nice to run Oracle and Jace Maniac as the wincons, but that's 2 cards out of the set and if either gets exiled the games become a lot tougher. Just one stuffed attempt in such a situation can mean a loss and this was why strategies like Inception were so powerful for a period of time. Triple redundancy is generally speaking the name of the game, you want the things your deck does to be done in triplicate to afford an ideal level of resilience. For interactive spells a pilot definitely wants to keep that count up high enough that they consistently have answers to evolving threats in game or else run the risk of being caught between a rock and a hard place.
August 18, 2020 6:43 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #7
Well, and then there are decks like Najeela that their wincon is in the command zone, and double redundancy of oracle/jace on top is just brutal, so trying to get rid of wincons is impossible and at a certain point you just need to beat them xD
August 18, 2020 6:45 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #8
The conversation about Drake vs Oko has nothing to do with the other pieces of removal you slot, its a comparison for that specific slot. Nobody said it was the only piece of removal they are slotting. This is a straw man and a complete tangent. This thread is not a joke, but I do implore you to read for clarity and comprehension before you post.
Specific 1 card slot changes DO have an impact on performance and efficiency. Competitive focuses on the nitty gritty, specific slots for specific cards is not only the thread topic but quite literally the entire basis of creating a deck. A single card slot change may only improve a decks win percentage by less than 1%, but any improvement is an improvement. Every single bit of extra edge you can add to your deck is important for cedh.
Coming into a thread to say you haven't read the thread is not productive. Competitive is also a different beast than casual because the community is focused on objective choices and deck building. When we talk about "This is a better slot, include it" its because the focus of cedh is for maximum efficiency. It may seem silly to you, but there is a reason people make threads to have this exact conversation about slot efficacy and evaluating cards against each other.
If you wish to monetize, make a website, or start a youtube channel. Sponsorship is a neat idea but unrealistic if you have no weight in the community. Even a prolific brewer like Shaper would not be able to get a sponsorship with just their tappedout profile.
August 23, 2020 4:32 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #9
dingusdingo Nah I meant on my completely unrelated (don't find me it's embarrassing) YT channel xD
August 23, 2020 8:32 p.m.
dingusdingo
i would respond to your mention of me
But i lost interest after the first three sentences and flipped to SynergyBuild's Yt channel
August 23, 2020 10:20 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #11
DeinoStinkus Hey, it's cool that someone wants to see my content, however currently I am planning on ~3 channels, and have a few hundred videos awaiting uploads on them all combined, one to do with MTG, and another for something somewhat related. I have a separate active fanbase of some number, but additionally want to keep in under wraps before uploading.
Right now the YT algorithm wants an insane upload schedule and like at least 3-12 videos to start on any channel, or else that channel will crash and burn. This way I can make these channels quite popular to spread awareness to the games and other activities I am interested in. Not planning on monetizing through adsense, it is annoying and as one of my channels will be music I find it even distracting, a sponsorship or self-made advertisements can be easily tailored to my channels and work much better with the net result.
Basically, for now I am revamping my channel, and since that is going on, I am a little hesitant to bring any more attention to it before I am done!
August 23, 2020 10:28 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #12
Your choice to stay ignorant is your own, but please stop posting in threads when you can't even read them top to bottom.
I tried to honestly respond and engage with you about cedh, but I see I have wasted my own time. Unfortunately, the intense mediocrity and apathy you display is par for the course on tappedout, rather than the exception. You should try applying yourself sometime.
August 24, 2020 4:19 a.m.
Mate, you have been exclusively and unbelievably rude in this thread.
It's probably best for you to just stop posting if the only comments you have to make are of the rude, hostile variety.
RambIe did read the post, has commented on it, and engaged in the discussion in a positively contributing fashion. None of that deserves for you to berate and insult him. Please do everyone a favor and find something better to do with your time than be hostile to other members of the community.
August 24, 2020 4:36 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #14
Oh, on topic btw jaymc1130, while I haven't changed my mind on Gilded Drake v Oko, Thief of Crowns, after more testing I have found Oko, Thief of Crowns has been outperforming other cards that Gilded Drake already was, but I considered inbetween the two on some measures, on of which being Swords to Plowshares, which matters more than some other cards due to the fact both are creature interaction.
Basically, Oko has been increasingly more adept at handling issues that I didn't expect. I always do like more blue cards to pitch to Force of Will too ;)
August 24, 2020 2:16 p.m.
i don't think Gilded Drake vs Oko, Thief of Crowns is a fair assessment
2 cmc vs 3 cmc , 2 is a clear advantage
mono vs duel colors, mono wins because it fits more decks
etb vs a pw alt, etb clearly wins out
Beast Within vs Oko, Thief of Crowns would be a closer comparison
but even then
Instant speed vs sorcery speed, well ya thats an easy choice
mono vs duel colors, mono wins again
so again its not a fair comparison because its to different
Oko, Thief of Crowns vs CEDH worthy
I think oko stands a chance because
1. most cedh don't pack answers to planes walkers
2. its able to fill the utility of multiple cedh cards
August 24, 2020 2:53 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #16
RambIe I agree, and discussed that somewhat earlier, but do want to stay on topic, and wanted to share the results against other staples when in game, basically if I had to cut removal, which removal would go first? Probably swords, depending on the deck!
August 24, 2020 3:02 p.m.
@SynergyBuild
its funny that you would say that
something for another topic, friend and i were just talking about seeing a decline in white because of recent printings
August 24, 2020 3:17 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #18
DeinoStinkus Honestly between that card (been tryna explain to people how stupid good it is, specifically the token part, the lands obviously make it an option, but the tokens make it great imo), Drannith Magistrate, Faeburrow Elder, Dovin's Veto, etc. I think white is simply going to change from the color you add for removal and a few hate pieces (Rest in Peace, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc.), now it will be a value color.
As is it already has a lot of new one-sided hate pieces, or draw engines like Mangara, the Diplomat (not saying it's a cEDH card, just pointing where white is heading), it already had Aven Mindcensor, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Silence, etc.
Adding in Drannith Magistrate and friends from newer sets and you can see high-value hatebears that compete on a whole new scale than older ones, giving tons of new staples to the format, and warping deck archetypes. Magistrate was so good it made Kess, the list that with Consult and Flash decks all over the format (pre-ban), it was tiered as high as Najeela and TnT (Kenrith wasn't around) as one of the top 3 decks, but after it was slotted into every deck it really hurt Kess, despite being mostly an answer to commander-focused decks.
Value in cards like Smothering Tithe and Keeper of the Accord changes the game a lot too, giving white a powerful splash color for decks just looking to play the most powerful threats. These cards can do insane things, and feel like white's equivalent to Seedborn Muses, Rhystic Studys, etc. Now I feel like red's Dockside Extortionist, while busted, just doesn't give as much value outside of storm and combo, and red just doesn't feel like it has a great long game, and white does.
I think that because red has gotten Conspicuous Snoop it is getting much better combos and with Goblin Recruiter being a one-card, easy win it shows red is still finding interesting synergies, I'd actually say that Black, White, and Red are getting closer.
RambIe I think it is pretty interesting to look at each color like I did above and it seems you and your friend did, but as power creeps up and up, I think the net result is that each of the colors becomes more powerful, and the end is that a 5c or 4c pile (As is I doubt TnT would ever be phased out) becomes the best deck, as we continue to see pushed 5c generals and the decks get more insanely based on just whatever the best cards are rather than synergies.
August 24, 2020 4:02 p.m.
it is interesting and over time evolves and changes
for a while boros was actually lower then white or red in mono
that no longer holds true
red is fun to track because it can be top today and bottom tomorrow
but now they have printed alot to support temur
for the first time we were noticing red actual hit mid range favor
which is why we felt white came down a notch
and are betting that we will see alot of 3 and 4 color cedh decks pop up not running white
but no matter what colors seem to get the most favor day to day
each color set has always maintained powerful cards
also please note i am not discussing information complied from a massive data list
this is just from a conversation between friends from personal observations
August 24, 2020 5:55 p.m.
i think r&d views themselves as mad scientists in there lab
and subconsciously releases a broken simic card in every set
August 24, 2020 6:07 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #21
I mean... Luckily Uro isn't breaking our format, and Oko is just really good, not like... a certain simic card, ending with the epithet of Triton Hero...
August 24, 2020 6:13 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #22
Commander Legends has Rejuvenating Springs, not broken, but something if nothing else happens, and don't forget Tamiyo, Collector of Tales that was homogenizing the format with Nexus of Fate
(they were insane together)!
August 24, 2020 6:17 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #23
This thread escalated quickly. This all seems like a tech choice to me. If your meta is full of commander dependent commanders Gilded Drake seems like the correct choice. In a stax heavy meta Oko will shine; a lot of people are on decks that can win independently of their commander but that's not every meta/store.
August 24, 2020 6:18 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #24
I think itd be neat if they reprinted the duals with a different border but made it so that printing was only legal in commander; similar to the gold border cards.
August 24, 2020 6:21 p.m.
@DeinoStinkus "Actually, there wasn't a broken Simic card in Commander Collection Green, idiot."
There just releasing half the combo at a time.
@RNR_Gaming ugg you are right,
sorry everyone for the off topics
sometimes my mind can be like a paper bag in the wind
August 24, 2020 6:23 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #27
I'm out here waiting for the time they just unban Balance and everything else and say F*** it.
I'm on Leovold fighting off the army of Triple Mox starting hands from TnT and Najeela just trying to hold the line as soon as that day happens.
August 24, 2020 6:25 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #28
DeinoStinkus Seems accurate, though Drake also is just as bad, and Legacy's Allure is the proven best commander, right jaymc1130?
August 24, 2020 6:28 p.m.
@DeinoStinkus
no joke, i was at one of my fav lgs's and asked for the blue commander binder Battle of Wits was in the second page.
jaymc1130 says... #1
Lol,that's not a bad idea Synergy. The money made from trading profit or local tourney's is piddly by comparison. Definitely worthwhile to check on a sponsorship.
August 17, 2020 6:58 p.m.