Opposition Agent needs a preemptive EDH ban
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 5, 2020, 8:10 p.m. by jaymc1130
Yeah, ridiculous to think about it for a card that will be printed in a set intended for EDH, but this card single handedly breaks the entire format to an unheard of degree. No more powerful EDH card has ever been printed, no card more warps the format than this card will. Soon enough it will be realized that the only viable (in competitive terms) concepts to play are Agent based concepts and more casual settings will despise the card because of the 3 for 1 nature hosing games very quickly at an extremely affordable pricetag.
No worse card for EDH has ever existed, and likely no card worse for EDH ever will.
This card absolutely should be banned from the format before the set is even released. Who ever thought of it should be removed from any and all EDH design teams in the future to prevent further catastrophes.
I could go in depth into all the reason why this card is the most disgusting thing ever seen for EDH, but, quite frankly, the text alone says enough. Any card that is a must run that makes Scheming Symmetry a must run card in the cEDH meta is a very very poorly designed card.
Opposition Agent... sigh. Seriously WotC? Seriously?
Indeed there are. And what do all of these decks have in common? They are running tutors to be able to employ their game plans effectively and reliably.
Which is precisely the element OP Agent disrupts, which further cements the points I've been making in this thread.
Now, I'm not here to convince any one that my opinion on this matter is correct. I'm not here to try to get a card banned. I'm just here to state, publicly on the record before any body else, that it's clear this card is a major issue for a huge multitude of reasons and what should happen with it initially is not what will happen with it initially. Not everyone else has the same experience with MTG that I do, not everyone else is going to have as intuitive a feel for the impact various cards will have on various formats. I've been at this a long time and I've seen a lot of things and I don't often have these kinds of dramatic gut instinct reactions to cards. What I can mention is that I felt a similar way a few times in the past about a handful of cards. When I first saw Memory Jar the first words out of my mouth after just reading the text for the first time ever was "This card will be banned before the next set is released". And it was. When I first looked upon the artifact lands Skullclamp and Arcbound Ravager I immediately said "Standard is now broken. All this nonsense will be banned before the set even rotates." And it was. When I first saw Chrome Mox I said "This card is so strong it's going to double in price in the next two months", so my group traded for several dozens of them and when they doubled in price we made a tidy profit. When I first looked at Jace, TMS I said "This card is going to single handedly break Standard", and it did. When Mental Misstep was first spoiled I said "This card will break Vintage/Legacy and get banned". And it did. When Once Upon a Time was spoiled I said "This card is absolutely busted and will be banned in multiple formats". And it was. I don't have these feelings about every card I see for the first time, and I don't have these feelings about every card that winds up in that type of position where it becomes an issue. But every time I HAVE had this gut reaction to a card the first time I saw it I was dead right and it's because these are cards with glaring, obvious concerns. Sometimes not in and of themselves mind you, but when taken in context of the way format play patterns will be shaped by them and their interactions with other pieces of the format. When I tell you that the second I saw OP Agent I knew what it would lead to you can rest assured it's significant. I won't try to tell any one that a wait and see approach is wrong, because most of the time it's simply not. That's usually the right call.
I'm just stating that I don't need to wait and see, I already know where this ship is sailing and these waters be murky af.
November 6, 2020 12:29 a.m.
I don't run tutors in my Niv-Mizzet deck I run lots of draw it is one of my combos the other is the standard combo with one of the two nivs in the next. I am not playing cedh I am running at level between full casual and cedh. I think opposition agent can be broken real easy. I already knew about the forced tutor lines of play hell you can do field of ruin and go get 4 basics which is kind of funny because it is so wrong.
November 6, 2020 12:48 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #4
"I'm not here to try to get a card banned". Title of the thread: "Opposition Agent needs a preemptive EDH ban"
It's ok to say that you want it banned, but it irks me that you're acting as though you don't, jaymc1130.
We know the card is good, the problem is that you're pushing it to be not only format-warping, which it will be, and potentially bannable, which it is...but that you're saying it's unanswerable. That any deck that relies on tutors (read: all competitive decks) literally cannot cast Counterspell on this card. If people were unable to counter things because of "proper backup" or whatever tf, then FoW would be useless. Because it would always be countered. I agree that it is VERY pushed, but it uses the stack. And even if it needs a ban (which, again, it likely does), it still can be stopped.
November 6, 2020 12:49 a.m.
I don't think cEDH or casual makes much difference to be honest. EDH, like the eternal formats, is a format that is fundamentally attrition based. In Vintage there is are no truly relevant Tempo or Control based concepts as these are play styles that are reliant on a fundamentally equal distribution of resources accruing for each player over a series of turns. Instead, all the viable playstyles in Vintage revolve around one primary fundamental element of MTG: resource attrition. It's most important in Vintage to win the battle of attrition by acquiring more cards and making more land drops than an opponent to be able to win consistently.
EDH is the same, but with the restrictions of 100 card singleton making consistency significantly more difficult to achieve. The best methods to achieve consistency in these circumstances is to, again, draw more cards, make more land drops, and tutor to find the critical lands and cards. In a world where OP Agent exists alongside Ashiok, Maralen, Narset, Notion Thief, and Hullbreacher (complementary pieces in exclusively U/B without consideration for any complementary pieces in other colors) games become inordinately difficult for decks not employing these tools to win because those decks can longer fight along the axis of attrition and win the battle along the most important fundamental elemental axis in EDH, acquiring enough resources to fight off a trio of opponents and make good on a game winning line of play.
Op Agent isn't a problem solely in and of itself (although this is certainly also true) as much as it's a problem because of the pieces that are currently present in the format that interact with OP Agent so favorably as to completely invalidate any alternative strategies using other cards and concepts as they cannot compete with this combination of tools along the most important fundamental axis. In order to win consistently a deck must be able to quickly, consistently, and reliably find the pieces of it's game plan while acquiring and deploying enough resource to implement and protect it's game plan. OP Agent in conjunction with the multitude of complementary pieces available to engage along this axis prevent all opposing strategies from both acquiring the needed card quickly, consistently, reliably, and, in some scenarios, at all in any capacity. What this means is that decks that cannot win with their opening 7 and don't contain OP Agent grindy style game plans of their own will not ever be able to win statistically relevant sample sizes of games and the games they will be able to win are 1% scenarios in and of themselves that are also not statistically relevant.
None of the above statements makes for a healthy, diverse meta. The above statements preclude such things and enforce a stagnant single dominant strategy meta that must be adhered to for any player looking to win consistently. If people whined and complained so much as to get Flash (and Flash wasn't even really that problematic, the community was just too lazy to find or understand the solutions to Flash based concepts) banned, what, exactly, do you think people are going to do for a card that is significantly more powerful and meta warping than Flash?
November 6, 2020 1:10 a.m.
I don't want the card banned. I want to bust tables up with it and abuse the hell out of it because its completely broken. But what I want and what is healthy for the state of the meta do not go hand in hand all the time. I very, very, very much want to play with and abuse this card.
What I think should happen with the card is a totally different story. I know exactly how badly I'm going to demolish everyone else I play until people start to adapt to the card and this is a circumstance that is going to play out similarly for the community as a whole the world over. Which means the overwhelming majority of players are going to have some extremely bad experiences due to the cards existence and legality, which, in turn, means less people playing MTG, community decline and stagnation. My opinion on what should happen with OP Agent, as such, is to have it preemptively banned (in much the same way Lutri was) from the format before it causes such a commotion as this will be better for the health of MTG as a whole over the long term and the short term (not to mention cause less secondary market volatility). Realistically, this care should simply never have been designed as it is and if released as spoiled just goes to show that some folks in the design department at WotC haven't the faintest clue what they are doing when they make cards.
What I want to do with the card and what needs to happen with it for the sake of the MTG community are two very separate things.
As for the play patterns involving OP Agent the issue isn't that you can't think of it along the lines one would think of for other win conditions. That's precisely how you should be thinking about it. It needs to be Counterspelled just as much as Ad Nauseam needs to be countered, more so in some situations. The issue isn't that it's unanswerable, the issue is that if those answers aren't present in hand prior to the casting of OP Agent then there will never be an opportunity to find any answers at all. Now sure, some one might have Oracle Consult combo in hand and you might think this is relatively similar, right? Wrong. If you expect a player to be setting up for Oracle Consult opponents have the opportunity to tutor for an answer to that problem so they have one ready in hand when the time comes. With OP Agent this is NOT possible. It would only hasten the time table for OP Agent's deployment and effectiveness. You cannot preemptively tutor for an answer to an expected problem when the expected problem is OP Agent and this is how it differs dramatically from every other possible win condition in the format. Just tutoring at all when ANY opponent has as little as a single black mana source untapped is such an inherently risky proposition as to be entirely untenable in a meta dominated by OP Agent as Dark Ritual into Agent into tutor theft could win the game on the spot. Tutors, in general, become much less viable lines of play in a world dominated by OP Agent because, again, as little as a single black mana source could (and will much of the time) mean you gift an opponent a win. No card in the history of EDH has limited play patterns in the format as much as OP Agent is going to limit them. So it's not so much that it "can't be stopped". It's that once the lock lands it's nigh impossible to handle and the threat of that game state prevents players from making proactive moves at all and still soft locks up the game state MERELY due to the threat of a potential future hard locked game state.
November 6, 2020 1:28 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #7
Ok I'm sorry it's too late for me to read three college theses' worth of text. I'm going to finish up my side of the discussion by saying that I primarily agree with you, and I'm not looking forwards to playing against black any time soon :)
November 6, 2020 1:57 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #8
I'm too Nayan to ever play this card myself, but I'm sure I'll be seeing it around the block if it stays unbanned, that much is for sure
November 6, 2020 1:58 a.m.
Let's be real here, the implications of this card are too far reaching for a single night's worth of consideration. Lol. It's just too much to take in over a couple of hours. I saw the text on this card and immediately intuited that it was a major issue, but it wasn't until I played around with it some and discussed things a bit with Synergy that I started to really put my fingers on exactly why my instant initial impression was "this card should be banned before it even hits shelves".
November 6, 2020 2:06 a.m.
This card is scary not just on the battlefield, but by virtue of the threat it presents. Any player in Black with three mana open instantly presents a huge threat to the entire table, forcing every player to assume they have an Opposition Agent in hand, and thus restricting the use of tutors by virtue of the threat alone.
Agent also has the additional problem of multiple players being likely to run similar win conditions--not only are you likely to cripple an opponents' ability to combo off, it is entirely likely you will simultaneously grab a card that will further your own victory.
But scary and likely to cause problems is not a reason to ban a card. This is not a Lutri, the Spellchaser situation, where a card is preemptively banned because its rules text is fundamentally incompatible with the format. That is not the situation here--Opposition Agent is powerful, and may indeed need a banning, but it is still compatible with EDH's rules as written. I think we should wait and see, and not make some rash decisions before the set is even released.
November 6, 2020 2:13 a.m.
While I think I agree with your clarification of why Lutri was banned preempitvely, I would disagree a bit on why OP Agent should not be.
Lutri, as so astutely stated, was banned preemptively because the card was fundamentally incompatible with the rules of format. If the card would have been allowed I don't think it would make the entire format fundamentally "unfun" to play.
I would argue that OP Agent is fundamentally incompatible with the spirit of the format: a multiplayer environment where every player is able to do cool and powerful things. I believe if this card is allowed to be present in the format it will make the entire format fundamentally "unfun" to play.
This would be my justification, if pressed, as to why I believe OP Agent deserves a similar preemptive banning. Again, it won't be, and I'd personally like nothing more than to play with it for a bit, but I think it should be preemptively banned for the sake of all those poor souls who would like to actually enjoy multiplayer games. While I fully intend to crush, in merciless fashion, the pitiable masses and hordes of players I shall defeat using OP Agent, it will not exactly be fun for me or the opponents. I'll mostly do it simply to feed my own insatiable desire for victory rather than enjoyment... and to me this is probably the scariest aspect of the card.
November 6, 2020 2:34 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #12
It's a 100 card singleton format. What if you draw Scheming Symmetry without the agent? Suddenly you're playing bad cards to enable good cards. Usually not a winning strategy.
So you combined Maralen and Opposition Agent. How is it different from Exquisite Blood and Vito? Just shuffle up the next game if there's no timely answer.
In every other situation, Opposition Agent is a steal-your-tutor that prevents other search effects from being good while cast with it on the battlefield. You're back to actual 100 card singleton, instead of the "win with the same 6 cards every single game and run 20 tutors to make it happen"
I don't like that it can cast the stuff you find, I think the card would be more interesting and less debilitating if it only let you decide what your opponent finds, but I do like a discouraging answer to the hyperconsistent "I'm gonna need to shuffle once again"-decks that are frankly running wild all over the format.
Having to think about running fetches and Demonic Tutor instead of no-brain auto include all the cards that make the game less variable and more consistent combo piles is a good thing. We need more effects like this, not ban the single one thing that counters the decadent power surge that's the high end of EDH nowadays.
November 6, 2020 6:29 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #13
plakjekaas So, I actually wanted to do the math on this, assuming you were in a Sultai+ shell, running the following tutors and cantrips, by turn three how often would you get OA and SS in hand?
Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Imperial Seal, Mystical Tutor, Lim-Dul's Vault, Worldly Tutor, Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe
If mulliganning to 4 is an option, the set looks to be a 64% chance to get both halves by turn three. This is further helped by running other forms of card advantage or search, effects like Neoform, Personal Tutor, Mindblade Render, slightly helped by running two commanders, Sylvan Library, Mystic Remora, etc.
November 6, 2020 8:52 a.m.
TotesMcGoats says... #14
Yea, you are absolutely overreacting. Is it kinda dumb that it steals your opponent's tutors? Yea. But you'll probably only get 1 off of it when you flash it in. And it could literally get killed in response. Its not as bas as it looks. Opposition Agent is fine. Dumb, but fine. Play counterspells, play removal, pay attention to your opponent's having open mana, or just Rule 0 it with your playgroup if you all hate it.
The ONLY thing I'm ACTUALLY a bit worried about is Maralen of the Mornsong . Maralen I could see getting a ban just so that we can avoid another Leovold situation. Opposition Agent alone isn't "the most disgusting card ever printed", but when you can't draw, can't tutor, you're slowly killing yourself, and your opponent gets to play everyone else's cards, NO ONE is going to want to play against that. Its like if they made a Commander that's intentionally designed to Mindslaver Lock you.
Maralen has never really seen a lot of play in the past because she's basically self-defeating since your opponent gets to tutor first and can simply find whatever piece of removal they want to kill Maralen. Cards like Shadow of Doubt , Leonin Arbiter , Aven Mindcensor , Stranglehold , and Ashiok, Dream Render ALREADY exist, but the difference is that none of them have been playable in a mono black deck with Maralen before.
So the real problem is that Opposition Agent should have been Blue/Black like Notion Thief , or IMO, ABSOLUTELY should have been a WHITE card. One of the few unique parts of White's color pie is hatebears. And Opposition Agent would have been a great piece of card advantage for white, similar to Alms Collector , which isn't nearly as good as it sounds since it doesn't trigger from multiple singular draws, but only if 2 or more are drawn at once from the same effect.
Opposition Agent otherwise has the same problem as Hullbreacher does. Its just going to die to removal immediately. You might get a bit of value from it, but once its out, no one is going to choose to tutor or draw extra cards until its gone. So you get some immediate value from it, and then its basically just another hatebear.
Hullbreacher is NOT Smothering Tithe . Smothering Tithe triggers on EVERY draw and it tricks you with the option of paying for it, even though few people ever want to, much like Rhystic Study . You still get to draw all the cards you want, someone else just gets a little extra benefit for it. It doesn't actually harm you unless you choose to pay for it. That's why its so good, it flies under the radar. Its why people will kill a Platinum Angel or Blazing Archon on sight, but don't really care about that Ghostly Prison even though they're both keeping you from getting attacked. One has an optional work-around, its just inconvenient enough to disuade people from doing it.
IMO, Opposition Agent should have been white, and it should have fit along the same lines as Smothering Tithe. Something like, "Flash, Whenever an opponent searches their library, you may also search your library for a card, unless that opponent pays 2. If you do, put it into your hand and shuffle." This way you're just taxing your opponents' tutors, or profiting off of them yourself.
People have said it before, but Rhystic Study should ABSOLUTELY have been a white card, and this would have been a cool way to do it, much like how Beast Within breaks green's color pie, so it was colorshifted to white in Modern Horizons as Generous Gift .
November 6, 2020 9:11 a.m.
golgarigirl says... #15
The power of this card scales with the power level of your playgroup.
In cEDH it's a terror. In my level 7-8 group, it's something to keep a removal spell for (sure, my Scapeshift and I are going to get blown out at least once, but you live and learn I guess). In lower levels, it's a pest. As such, I see it being more like Flash in that the cEDH community is going to have to prove how backbreaking it truly is before the rules committee will consider a ban.
Personally, I think like the lotus, people are overreacting, probably because they are looking at it purely from a best-case scenario cEDH perspective. For the rest of us, how useful is it really outside of really specific builds (I do kind of wish it only had 2 power...Alesha is slighted again!)?
November 6, 2020 9:39 a.m.
So your worried about a two card combo that locks players out of the game if they don't have an answer in hand when you cast op agent? Guess you never heard of stax before. Most of my decks have 0-1 tutors in them. Yeah this will hurt but most of the time itll steal a win con then eat a Purify now I see this being powerful in cedh but not broken. Also your saying itll steal counters but also steal wincons. No one is gonna tutor while this is on board.
November 6, 2020 9:39 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #17
TotesMcGoats I actually, for casual purposes agree with this entirely, excluding Hullbreacher, and think the white sentiment should be carried for both of these hatebears. OP Agent comes with a couple issues for competitive environments it doesn't for casual.
Getting 1 card from this in a OP Agent meta will either get you a free counterspell, which protects the agent, making it much worse than an Aven Mindcensor to try to remove, and by the nature of metagaming, the chances you can find a second copy of Agent, to steal another agent after your original agent was killed, then another tutor was cast. The OP Agent Chaining is my bigger issue, as the card is insanely good, and gets better the more opponents that run it. The best way to beat it is by running it, or Praetor's Grasp to steal another one, or Gilded Drake, because it shifts the power dynamic of the most powerful card type in the format; tutors.
Otherwise, yeah, I agree OP Agent, without SS or Maralen is probably going to get you maybe 1-2 cards maximum, maybe a stray path will get you a land or something, but most paths would be aimed at the Agent, so most likely 1 card. But each opponent needs to expect it, and that fear will diminish the power of tutors, which is the fear factor of the card, its akin to Flash, the card didn't need to always win, the fear is why people didn't tap out, this is one card, that combo or not needs to be answered before stealing 1 card, because it steals any card. It takes another one of itself and now you have to deal with two, the second being able to be flashed in from a nearly impossible-to-interact-with zone, for 3 generic this time, coming in at whatever point is most detrimental.
The playstyle is so slow and reactive it redefines some of the basest qualities of the format in cEDH. In casual setting however the lock piece with it is much more concerning. I could see either getting banned.
I think the Rhystic-Smothering Tithe style argument is sort of moot in cEDH, where tricking opponents, most of whom are previously in professional events or play on professional levels, at least in the cEDH playgroups and discords I happen to be a part of, isn't how we play. You can't do that outside of very casual playgroups that dont play around Rhystic Study type effects. The amount I have paid for Study dwarfs the amount I haven't, close for Tithe, not even close for Remora, because I dont play into that one nearly at all, just dump creatures.
By that logic, and by the meta of the format of cEDH, you'll see a lot of the meta lists are greatly affected by Hullbreacher more than Tithe or even Narset. The ability to stop all draws on opponents' turns and just 1 draw per each player's draw step is pretty impressive. It's a cheaper Notion Thief without black and with added toughness and a different benefit.
golgarigirl weirdly you dont have to worry about Scapeshift, since you can decide to sacrifice none.
shadow63 I think the wincon stealing was for forced tutoring, the protection from the first steal. Fair point otherwise, but that would be how I'd do it.
November 6, 2020 10:13 a.m.
I think this card should be banned for the same reason Prophet of Kruphix was banned - it is a single card that does not win the game, but warps it to the point where it is the most important card on the table and the game now revolves entirely around it.
Everyone will want to copy Agent, destroy Agent, prevent its effect. Every game action is taken with consideration for this card. I really would not want to play in such games of commander.
November 6, 2020 10:51 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #19
Boza I agree, but I think this is worse than prophet. That card is a powerful mana generating flash enabler, but it doesn't give immediate card advantage or ruin the game for other players, it's the difference of infinite mana vs stopping opponents from ever getting mana. Realistically both win the game, but one is much more rough to play against, and while neither are as powerful as these effects, I hope you understand why I think one is more worthy of banning. Otherwise fully agree with why there is precedent
November 6, 2020 11:19 a.m.
We've already addressed the "just use removal on it" angle and conclusively determined this is not a viable solution to the problem OP Agent presents. Now, you should want to run more spot removal in every deck once OP Agent is released because you will need the threat of spot removal to force opponents to hold onto that OP Agent until they can both cast it and protect it at the same time, but as a general solution to the problem the card presents (which is two fold: there is the game play pattern aspect that is extraordinarily powerful, and then there is the extreme degree of meta warping that will occur because the card is so powerful that every viable deck will be required to run it). Reacting to the second half of that equation and running more spot removal to help answer the first half of that equation does not really provide an answer to the second half of that equation, just reacts to it. This is why we can summarily dismiss the notion of "just bolt it" as a solution to the problem OP Agent poses, it doesn't actually solve the problem and only reacts to the situations that arise from the core of the issue.
This is exactly the argument people used for Flash for the longest time before the entire community finally gave up, cried uncle, and demanded the card be banned. The community at large was too lazy to find a true solution and instead opted for an ever increasing arms race of adding more and more cheap/free interaction to lists in reaction to the issue posed. This helped a little bit and forced the meta to shift slightly into longer and slower grindy style game play patterns because selling out to go for the turn 3 win every game became a sure fire way to lose the game on the spot just for attempting the line of play in such a greedy fashion. But none of this changed the meta warping effect of format that was allowed by the existence of Flash and this lazy attempt at a "solution" was utterly ineffective at addressing the core issue of the meta becoming a stagnant homogenized thing that people eventually became bored/annoyed with.
Now, with Flash, there was indeed a true solution in the form of the Inception style strategy that solved both halves of the equation to the point that Flash based combos became so useless the entire concept disappeared from the most competitive possible metas. Flash concepts have an inherent weakness that they are not card slot efficient and tend to devote 20-30 cards in the deck toward the deployment of a single combo win line that requires unique pieces that do not have existing duplicate effects (Flash, Protean Hulk, Narcomeba, Dread Return, etc). The solution was quite simple as it turned out: simply exile one of these critical points of failure faster than the Flash based concepts were able to employ a Flash based line of play as the removal of any number of these unique critical points of failure would cause the entire line of play (and thus the 20 or 30 cards devoted to it) to fail entirely. Extract was the solution, with an assist from Praetor's Grasp and targeted discard spells (at least until the printing of Veil of Summer that hosed Inception based concepts pretty hard) as this Inception strategy would dismantle opposing Flash strategies so consistently a turn, or even 2 turns, faster than the Flash concepts could deploy a Flash combo line that the Flash combo decks completely disappeared from the most competitive metas that adopted this solution to the problem. Now, most of the community never even attempted this solution, laughed at it outright, and went on ranting and raving about the existence of Flash to the point that a card that didn't really need to be banned for power level reasons was banned for power level reasons (I was perfectly happy with the ban myself, but purely from the standpoint that it would help diversify the meta as Flash based concepts had already proven they weren't overly powerful).
I relate all of this similar situation information to make a very specific point in relation to why such a solution cannot be found for OP Agent while it was found for Flash. And that point is very simple: it was easier to tutor for and play Extract than it was to tutor for and play Flash+Protean Hulk so the solution worked very effectively because the play pattern and deck construction techniques used to employ the counter strategy were significantly more efficient. This type of solution is not a possibility with OP Agent because the mere threat posed by it's existence negates and precludes the potential to use tutors to consistently and reliably find cards that could answer the threat it poses that are included in the deck. Counter strategies that employ specific cards to preemptively solve a problem before it arises are not a valid fix here, and as Flash conclusively proved beyond any shadow of doubt simply upping the interaction count in an every increasing arms race is also not a viable solution because it simply isn't effective, merely slows the pace of play, and a slower pace of play is an advantage to decks playing grindy OP Agent based strategies.
None of these above statements is in any way an "overreaction". This analysis is simply an accurate portrayal of the coming meta shift deduced and derived from the implications of a single card. It's less of a "Chicken Little the sky is falling" type of proclamation and more of a "the pace of current global climate change is incompatible with continued human existence and will result in the eventual extinction of the species and most life on Earth unless it's effects are halted" type of proclamation. Should people be concerned with going extinct tomorrow? No. But people need to be aware of the fact that the current trajectory of climate change will inevitably and invariably lead to that eventuality. Similar to OP Agent, humanity can do a lot to stop polluting the environment and actively harming the planet, but there is no true solution for a population growth rate that will even more quickly cause the planet to be uninhabitable. There are a number of ways to counter or remove an Agent, but there is no true solution to the coming stagnation and homogenization of the format outside of simply banning the offending party in much the same way there is no true solution to exponential population growth aside from expanding humanity's presence to other habitable worlds.
November 6, 2020 11:51 a.m.
People keep posting that you should run Lightning Bolt in your deck. As far as cheap removal goes there are plenty removal spells I’d rather run before I pick up Lightning Bolt. My picks include Dismember, Lightning Axe, Sinister Concoction, Weight of Spires, Go for the Throat, Terminate, Molten Vortex, and Heartless Act
November 6, 2020 11:55 a.m.
The single best piece of removal to find it's way into lists in the coming months is Path to Exile as this deals with the offending threat pretty permanently. It also combos very nicely with OP Agent itself to net a land to ensure a land drop when you miss a land draw to keep up the pace of tempo. Path is going to be the single most added card to deck lists in the next 6 months for these reasons. Pongify and Rapid Hybridization are the next two most effective removal pieces that will see additions to lists. Eliminate (and maybe Smother/Fatal Push) will be run in the 2 cmc removal slots more so than any card similar to Go for the Throat because it's restriction is usually slightly less problematic plus it can hit some of the very important complementary pieces (Narset, Ashiok, Maralen, Mindcensor, etc). Both Dark Betrayal and Human Frailty are fringe option considerations and while Snuff Out is no good but Deadly Rollick should be excellent for some deck archetypes (such as Yuriko).
The problem with most removal spells is that they tend to "destroy" the Agent and this doesn't really solve the problem. In my Maralen deck, for example, I'm already running Reanimate, Dance of the Dead, Necromancy, Animate Dead and have at times included for testing Unearth, Oversold Cemetery, plus a few other recursive elements. Just destroying the Agent is not a good way to deal with it, it's just going to come back (Noxious Revival, Regrowth, etc). You need to exile it. Swords and Path are the best bets, Winds of Abandon isn't terrible but it's also not instant speed. But the point here is that you want to exile the dude or find some sort of more permanent solution to the problem a la Gilded Drake/Oko than just spending some spot removal on a card that's going to make a return from the yard (Underworld Breach just to replay an Agent is a totally valid line to take in competitive settings, you'll just steal some one else's Breach to combo off). Can't stress this enough, you'll want to exile the Agent, not destroy it.
November 6, 2020 12:20 p.m. Edited.
SynergyBuild says... #23
jaymc1130 Tbh flash sorta sucks in an OP Agent meta xD
StopShot YES!, I have raved about a bunch of those, specifically Molten Vortex and Dismember.
Since Fatal Push needs revolt to hit Breacher and OP Agent, I think options like Ulcerate could actually be relevant.
Path to Exile as well as Swords to Plowshares off will quite possibly be run a lot more together, and actually is really good of you and an opponent have OP Agents out, so you can remove theirs and steal a land simultaneously. Exiling removes Unearth/Reanimate shenanigans so white has a massive leg up in the removal category.
Rapid Hybridization/Pongify feel more akin to the red or black removal spells, and bounce is so-so, but obviously countermagic and steal effects are possibly the best ways to deal with OP Agent. Gilded Drake has gotten a ton better with cards like Kinnan, Breacher, and OP Agent being powerful options for any deck, often especially ones outside of the colors.
I think green decks like Yisan are the worst off, while Ulvenwald Tracker is probably the best, it doesn't have many options past that, so I think they are hurt by this shift a lot.
jaymc1130 new comment, actually really enjoy Eliminate, feels akin to Abrupt Decay, despite obviously being worse, and ofc Assassin's Trophy is really good too, like Path to Exile
Edit: Trophy&path are may abilities, so it's not a free card.
November 6, 2020 12:37 p.m. Edited.
jaymc1130, If you badly need exile beyond Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile you can run Reality Shift, Dire Tactics, Angelic Ascension, Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor, Celestial Purge, Scorching Dragonfire, and Scorchmark.
While it doesn’t exile Mystic Subdual is also worth mentioning.
November 6, 2020 12:44 p.m.
My group had already been slotting Eliminate in a bit more often for testing as it handled the ever present Narset/Ashiok duo that every U/B deck is assured of running in every game and it could be a nice spot removal piece for things like Mindcensor or Tymna at times. But in a world with OP Agent the value of Eliminate goes way up. It's going to hit the offender and most of the complementary hate pieces to the strategy at the same time so it should be very very flexible. I think if I have to choose between Pongify and Eliminate for a final card slot it's a tough choice. U is easier to cast than 1B, and it works as a win condition when looped, but it doesn't hit Ashiok or Narset or Oko. Kind of a non issue for, say, Tasigur or Yuriko, but for T&T it's a rough, agonizing debate between the two for a card slot if there's only one slot available.
November 6, 2020 12:45 p.m.
Lots of good options there mate, the community is going to thank you for that post in the coming months. Count on it.
November 6, 2020 12:47 p.m.
jaymc1130 what about green answers via enchantments like Lignify and Kenrith's Transformation...mono-Black really has no answers for enchantments other than a sac outlet to kill their own enchanted agent or Maralen. Do these options see more play once agent arrives?
November 6, 2020 12:48 p.m.
There’s a slight overhype about running Path to Exile while you have your own Opposition Agent out. May I remind everyone that Path to Exile’s land tutor effect is a may clause and your opponent can simply decline to search. You getting a land is not guaranteed however, removing the drawback to Path is still an upside in itself and I still intend to run Path in spite of that.
November 6, 2020 12:50 p.m.
Also if you’re running green you should be using Abrupt Decay over Eliminate or both.
November 6, 2020 12:55 p.m.
Transformational enchantments will certainly see an up tick in play rates once OP Agent hits. The downside is they usually aren't instant speed and thus can't prevent the first tutor theft, so instant speed is an important aspect for potential answers. Still, not all decks are going to be 4 color hyper competitive piles and decks that have more limited access to suitable answers will have to make do with the answers that are available. Having something to unlock the game state will be important even if you have to allow the Agent to generate some value before it's answered. Politics, in general, will become a significantly more important aspect of EDH in an OP Agent world as dealing with a resolved Agent will not be something any player can tend to do alone. You'll need to hone those political skills and understand how, when, where, and who to ask for back up when you go to remove that Agent that thieved some protection for itself, be it of the counter spell variety or the duplicate copy variety.
November 6, 2020 12:58 p.m.
Ugh, I can't edit my original comment but there's also Magma Spray and Necrotic Wound.
Does anyone mind telling me what happens if I try to search my library and all three of my opponents each own an Opposition Agent?
November 6, 2020 1:25 p.m.
My understanding of that situation is this. You are the active player. There are 3 identical effects that modify your action. As they are identical and you are the active player you get to choose which of those effects apply. So you choose which opponent searches for you.
November 6, 2020 1:28 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #33
StopShot maybe you forgot, but Scorchmark is a direct downgrade to Magma Spray
EDIT: You mentioned this, frick, ok, imma just make a decklist link so I can edit it.
November 6, 2020 1:30 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #34
jaymc1130, weirdly enough, the two abilities are actually separate, the control ability during searches is based on timestamps like Mindslaver, where the latest OP Agent to enter the battlefield is the person to control it, but the exiling of the card found is actually a replacement.
The last OP Agent gets to search, you choose who gets the card though.
November 6, 2020 1:33 p.m.
Ah, so the control aspect isn't a replacement effect and the result isn't quite like when two opposing players both control a Notion Thief and you choose who draws as the active player. Only the exile portion is a replacement.
This brings up another question that is liable to be important. Opponent A and B control an Agent, B's Agent came in last, B gets to search. I'm the active player who attempted to search, I choose to have A's replacement effect exile the card. Can opponent A then play the card even though it was not his Agent that sent the card to exile? It would seem like opponent A could play the card as the text does not specify that the card must be exiled with that Agent's ability to be played, merely that the card must have entered exile as part of the replacement for search and find.
No matter what, I've played this situation incorrectly so far. Good thing it only happened once.
November 6, 2020 1:40 p.m.
TotesMcGoats says... #36
It'll be a bigger problem in cEDH than casual play, same as Jeweled Lotus, and I still hold the same opinion over cEDH:
If you enjoy it, go for it, but commander is a casual multiplayer format. Its just not designed to be a competitive format. The card pool is too big to properly manage with bans. Its why we so rarely see them from the rules committee.
The primary governing force that keeps commander going is what's referred to as Rule 0, the unwritten rule that, "If your deck is unfun to play against, no one will want to play against it." Playgroups are supposed to be self-regulating.
There are people who enjoy playing commander decks built to win as hard and as fast as possible to test the limits of the format, but the format itself is inherently pretty easily broken. I understand the appeal, and that's why the concept of 'cEDH' became a thing in the first place for competitive players to be able to differentiate themselves and find others to actually play their broken decks against.
In a 4 player pod, you'll only ever win approximately 25% of the time. 75% of the time, you lose. The point of commander isn't to build the most powerful deck possible so that you can win as much as possible. The point is to self-regulate and limit yourself in a way that everyone can have fun just playing the game, win or lose.
That's why casual players hate things like STAX, or Discard themes, or Mass Land Destruction, or comboing off too fast or too consistently. People play the game to play the game, not to get shut out of it.
That's why OP agent is a problem, not because it shuts down tutoring, but because of its lockout potential with Maralen, and that's why people hate Jeweled Lotus, because games can end before they've even really had a chance to play. But these cards don't need to be banned, just don't play them.
That's why the cEDH community is going to have such a hard time dealing with these cards. They don't know how to self-regulate. They can't NOT play the most busted cards. And that's why they're asking for a ban from the rules committee to force people not to play them.
The cards are dumb, and I don't think they should have been printed, but rather them ignoring them like most of the casual community will, the competitive community will struggle, and that's less of a problem with WotC, the cards, or the rules committee, and more of a problem with the community. WotC printed Jeweled Lotus and OP Agent because they knew they would sell, because they knew how powerful they were, and they knew the competitive communities would get overhyped and be forced to buy it.
November 6, 2020 1:46 p.m.
This is a ridiculous idea. I can't imagine it ever getting banned in EDH.
November 6, 2020 3:01 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #38
jaymc1130 While a ruling will need to happen, precedent would say that only the player who owned the card got to decide who gets to keep the card, but the latest timestamp would actually see who chooses the card.
Basically, both effects go off, and both effects take place, the owner decides which to choose, and whoever they choose last is the only one that effectively has their OP Agent exiling it for these purposes.
TotesMcGoats As a casual and competitive player, I'd agree that the format wasn't made for competitive viability, it was meant to be a silly format for judges to test and never meant for casual play either, and later was rebranded for casual play. At the same time, M:TG was meant to be a time waster, while DMs for D&D set up for further campaign management.
The difference many people brought up historically was that M:TG was later rebranded for casual and competitive play, and that they were balanced for it, and set up competitive tournaments with prizes, reinforcing competitivity repeatedly, with EDH not having that equivalent.
The reason I said that was historically the argument used was that with 2019 and commandfests, with prize awarded tournaments, and balancing banlists from much earlier, bans like Flash because of it's cEDH dominance, products made to balance it and cards specifically made for supporting EDH strategies to make them more competitive, etc.
Rzepkanut Why?
November 6, 2020 3:42 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #39
jaymc1130 I think you misunderstand how the Consult Oracle line plays out with Agent...
Demonic Consultation doesn't "search" neither does Oracle, so therefore, Agent has no effect on those cards. Also, if an Agent is in play, nothing is stopping people from Drawing answers or wincons using "Wheel" effects or just blatant card advantage commanders such as Thrasios and Tymna. All Agent decks will still be running Consult Oracle because it's probably the fastest way to win currently in cEDH.
In order to be truly oppressive, you would need both Hullbreacher and Agent, which you have stated to be ridiculous, but now you're talking about tutoring for the pieces yourself, if you don't have them in hand already, which slows you down and might allow the opponent to just go for the win, because you are expending resources (mana) to find answers, and at most, it will cost you 4 mana, but when players can go off on Turns 1 through 4, you have very little time to put the Breacher and Agent together to lock someone down unless your deck is actively aimed at slowing everyone down, and a single stax deck at a table struggles against hyperfast combo decks, even if it slows them a turn because most stax decks run pieces that affect everyone, even themselves.
So...YES...Agent and Breacher are amazingly good cards, and yes, if played correctly, it can bring the game to a sheer halt...however, acting like no one can do anything about these 2 cards is absurd. You stating you can just FoW someone's removal can be easily said the other way around, FoW your Agent...?
While both cards are very good, the only issue I see is that cEDH will become more focused on Agent and Breacher to the point, everyone runs it, but hell, everyone is running ThOracle Consult packages and those that don't, more times than not, lose to it.
Only time will tell, but there are definite answers to these cards and ways to get answers outside of tutoring. The only thing that might see an uptick in play since these two cards being printed is creature removal, which is fine because cEDH has felt like a very spell based deck and everyone is just OK with Tymna smacking people in the face over and over.
November 6, 2020 6:09 p.m.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #40
(Disclaimer: I only read about the first half of responses)
I find the whole topic hilarious considering that I specifically run heavy card draw over tutors in most of my Mono-Black decks to begin with. Now on top of that to have specific tutor-hate in is absolutely hysterical to me..
But on a more objective note: I see Opposition Agent is to , as Force of Will is for ..
November 6, 2020 9:05 p.m.
Sure if your meta is tutor-pushed. Why are we assuming in a more casual environment you are going to see a ton of game-breaking tutors? I have played plenty of midrange games where, if an opponent always wants to hold up 3 mana waiting for a tutor, they can be my guest... Likewise it does fuckall against the "spin the wheel" types of decks that aren't even searching. Sounds like some people are overreacting based on "search library" heavy metas... You are not speaking for all of us though, in my meta the most impact this card will have is, be a turn-by-turn waste of 3 mana.
November 6, 2020 9:17 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #42
Gleeock Maralen doesn't need them to have tutors, nor does SS.
November 6, 2020 9:19 p.m.
& they can move Maralen right on to cEDH for all I care if that is what happens. We talking about preemptive bans for a corner-case deck? Or scheming symmetry extra tutor?
November 6, 2020 9:22 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #44
Gleeock The issue is that's for non-competitive environments where this is just a good card, in competitive ones, tutors are everpresent, the wheel decks use tutors to chain wheels together, or to find payoffs, as naturally wheeling is a sure-fire way to lose the game, so they need a narset or similar effect out. To get those consistently, that takes tutors.
November 6, 2020 9:28 p.m.
TotesMcGoats says... #45
Gleeock, SynergyBuild, UpperDeckerTaco
Exactly my point, the problem isn't Opposition Agent itself, the problem is playing it with Maralen of the Mornsong. If anything gets a ban, it should be her I think.
Maralen has been a relatively unplayed $6 card from Morningtide for years, but the day that Opposition Agent was spoiled, it spiked to $40 and sold out everywhere immediately.
November 6, 2020 9:28 p.m. Edited.
SynergyBuild says... #46
TotesMcGoats Agreed for casual, but for cEDH Maralen is fine, the Agent needs to go.
November 6, 2020 9:31 p.m.
TotesMcGoats says... #47
I think of Agent for cEDH like Force of Will in Legacy. It'll end up revolving around it, but I think you can learn to play around it. Like, actually playing interaction.
November 6, 2020 9:34 p.m.
NOTHING needs to go. Banhappy people won't even let the card play out & see how format-warping the card truly is. We should see if this is more (sky-is-falling) talk.. I'm just not seeing it here. What I do know is that both WoTC & to some extent the RC are trying to step off the gas on the poor banning precedent that has been set before, especially without all the proper information & testing (which is a good thing).
November 6, 2020 9:37 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #49
TotesMcGoats I'd agree, if Force of Will drew you another Force of Will, but was more specific than countering anything.
I'd say it's closest to Veil of Summer in Oko standard. Oko was the Oracle combo, or anything really, but the reason it couldn't be stopped was a piece of interaction that was specific to most ways of stopping, but ended up getting card advantage. In this case it's not drawing a card though, it's tutoring a free counterspell or other copy of an Agent, as well as being a repeated stax piece with combos that are powerful with something like Maralen, SS, or simpler effects like OA chaining.
Gleeock Agreed. I don't want it banned, but I do think this design is a problem, that's all xD
EDIT: I don't want it banned just yet, at least we should see if we are doomed lol!
November 6, 2020 9:42 p.m. Edited.
I'm extremely familiar with how Consult Oracle works, amd the reason why Agent negates the competitive viability of that line does not revolve in how the line functions.
The reason Consult Oracle and other 2 card combos become extremely risky to run in a deck opposed by OP Agent is because ANY tutor to find any of these components can be usurped to instead have the Agent player use that combo using opposing cards. Scheming Symmetry is a tutor any two card combo present in multiple opposing decks to hand and play said combo that turn (be it Consult Oracle, Power Monolith, Dramatic Scepter, LED Breach, etc) simultaneously using the combo and preventing both opponents from every being able to use the combo. The risk to these types of combos lies not in going for them and having Agent steal them, it lies in choosing to run or rely on said combos at all as the Agent player can either/both deny you the ability to win the game and win the game with a single 3 mana play. In the event the Agent player is stuffed when they go for these lines, no harm no foul, they don't lose any cards or access to any of their win conditions but the pair of players the Agent thieved do lose at least one (and often any) possibility of a combo win.
hejtmane says... #1
That's funny I blown up up tables with a budget version of Underworld Breach i run it in my budget niv-mizzet instead of lion's eye diamond I do a Mana Geyser Shattered Perception for a $1.25 standard labman/thassa oracle etc wincon. Budget jank for the win.
You can also leverage Isochron Scepter Dramatic Reversal infinite mana for a reasonable price and end games cheaply in a lot of decks one of the easiest lines of play.
Teshar and a KCI combo with KCI loops and other cheaper loops with blasting station.
There are lots of cheap decks to win with that can destroy tables easy
November 6, 2020 12:06 a.m.