Opposition Agent needs a preemptive EDH ban
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 5, 2020, 8:10 p.m. by jaymc1130
Yeah, ridiculous to think about it for a card that will be printed in a set intended for EDH, but this card single handedly breaks the entire format to an unheard of degree. No more powerful EDH card has ever been printed, no card more warps the format than this card will. Soon enough it will be realized that the only viable (in competitive terms) concepts to play are Agent based concepts and more casual settings will despise the card because of the 3 for 1 nature hosing games very quickly at an extremely affordable pricetag.
No worse card for EDH has ever existed, and likely no card worse for EDH ever will.
This card absolutely should be banned from the format before the set is even released. Who ever thought of it should be removed from any and all EDH design teams in the future to prevent further catastrophes.
I could go in depth into all the reason why this card is the most disgusting thing ever seen for EDH, but, quite frankly, the text alone says enough. Any card that is a must run that makes Scheming Symmetry a must run card in the cEDH meta is a very very poorly designed card.
Opposition Agent... sigh. Seriously WotC? Seriously?
ZendikariWol says... #3
Preemptive bans are always a bad idea, except in the case of a card like Lutri, which would be undeniably correct to play in every deck that could possibly run it.
November 7, 2020 2:15 a.m.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #4
You know things like Nevermore also exist, right?
November 7, 2020 4:29 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #5
Drannith Magistrate for that matter. There's plenty of cards that completely invalidate other strategies. The fact that Opposition Agent hates on probably the most powerful effect in singleton sends lovers of powerful magic seemingly in a frantic state of panic.
It might stir up the meta, making new decks viable, that aren't dependent on search effects to win. Fetchlands may not be just the most powerful lands in the game anymore in all formats this is legal. This even blows out Cultivate and all equivalent green spells that are considered quite powerful. Just because of the existence of this one card!
It's amazing and I'm all for it.
November 7, 2020 5:37 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #6
ZendikariWol Fully agreed, I mean, in the case of effects like conspiracy or other cards that break the fundamentals of the format, ofc too. I think this is the equivalent to Prophet of Kruphix however, it will be around for a while, always will be problematic, and then eventually will be banned. A few people may be upset, as they liked it a lot, but most people will admit it was ban worthy.
Metroid_Hybrid I'm not sure if you are serious, that card not only is a bad answer because if you draw it after OA hits you are screwed, but unlike PE or PoK, isn't cheaper to cast than OA, nor did it ever affect those cards not being banned. Nevermore is always such a bad card it's never been considered for any card's banning, despite always having been an option.
plakjekaas Really interesting points here, and honestly diving deeper into the lines of play w/ and against Drannith Magistrate are amazing. While it stops the cast of cards stolen with the Agent, it doesn't stop the stealing itself, so if they both die, the Agent player then gets access to all of those cards.
Weirdly enough, by only stopping the cast, Agent players do get to play lands they steal, just an interesting point.
Drannith Magistrate also locks out one of the 3 main avenues of card advantage in EDH, Commanders, where it works so well with Agent, that if one opponent has an Agent, and the other has a Magistrate, the two remaining players are screwed w/ card draw outside of the CZ/tutoring. Itd seemingly favor the Agent player slightly from there, but it'd be akin to Armageddoning the stax player so they can't cast another Sphere of Resistance. It works, but it's a bad idea unless you can abuse the new, harsher lock better than they can, without the help from the people you locked out, or with the downside of those people targeting you and the Agent player.
Really interesting, is that with a Hullbreacher/Narset, Parter of Veils/Notion Thief, Ashiok, Dream Render/Opposition Agent, and a Drannith Magistrate, the game is much worse off, because there are no forms of card advantage that easily slip through, with the inherent card advantage of a card(s, with partner) that you can recast over and over being lost.
Overall I think Magistrate both supports and hurts Agent to the point both will be run and I'm honestly down to see how insane that'll be!
Finally, I do want to mention the best answer that I've found works pretty well so far, though is a little inconsistent. Oko, Thief of Crowns shows very promising results so far, it acts as a card that until removed just stops people from casting Agents at all. It's a powerful, already run, repeatable answer that an Unearth or Reanimate won't stop, but like Drannith Magistrate does make locks with OA harsher.
November 7, 2020 8:24 a.m.
skoobysnackz says... #7
I just want to give my input because I'm a filthy casual and you said casual players will hate it too, but honestly I could not care less about this card and I really can't see it breaking the casual edh format, which means that it probably will end up getting a similar treatment as flash if it does prove to be too much for cEDH. This might just be me and my playgroup but we each have somewhere between 2-4 edh decks and no one really has any tutors other than things like kodamas reach etc. so its really not that game-breaking imho.
November 7, 2020 9:24 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #8
skoobysnackz I think no one said that, they said it'd hurt them through Maralen and SS.
November 7, 2020 9:40 a.m.
skoobysnackz says... #9
literally the first paragraph: "Soon enough it will be realized that the only viable (in competitive terms) concepts to play are Agent based concepts and more casual settings will despise the card because of the 3 for 1 nature hosing games very quickly at an extremely affordable pricetag."
November 7, 2020 9:44 a.m.
skoobysnackz, What about Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, Ash Barrens, Fabled Passage, Prismatic Vista, Armillary Sphere, Bant Panorama, Esper Panorama, Grixis Panorama, Jund Panorama, Grixis Panorama, Blighted Woodland, Burnished Hart, Expedition Map, Myriad Landscape, Renegade Map, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Solemn Simulacrum, Sword of the Animist, Thaumatic Compass Flip, Thawing Glaciers, Traveler's Amulet, Wanderer's Twig, Wayfarer's Bauble, or Wood Elves?
For some of the casual play groups I’ve been in Opposition Agent would really hose their ability to mana-fix and I can’t think of anything more annoying than sitting on removal you could use to take it out, but not having the right mana to cast it.
November 7, 2020 10:40 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #11
It's going to be the same part of the social contract that governs Armageddon, Winter Orb, Notion Thief and the likes, to regulate this card on casual tables now. If you want to be the @$$hole who prevents the rest of the table to play their decks in a casual environment, you're free to do so, just count on the possibility that the others might not invite you back if you're overdoing it.
Although "steal your stuff" is a massively popular casual theme that this card could really shine in. And it counters the silly Boundless Realms stuff that usually wins games in casual.
The card will make an impact on EDH as a format, that's for sure. But I'm not sure why we're so scared of a shake up now, is that the aftermath of the state of standard in the past years? Why is this card worse than Notion Thief which is commander legal since 2013 and steals the second most powerful thing you can do in singleton, namely drawing cards?
November 7, 2020 11:15 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #13
skoobysnackz my issue is that I doubt it will be easily affordable xD
Gleeock Opposition Agent actually gives it to your hand effectively, by putting it in castable in exile, no matter how the tutor worked, whether an Entomb effect or Worldly Tutor. Btw also Gamble works, but the owner, not the OP Agent stealer, discards a random card but gets nothing. Use SS to target two opponents to steal combo pieces!
November 7, 2020 11:36 a.m. Edited.
Mmmm, Synergy answering all the things while I'm asleep. Good lad.
November 7, 2020 11:53 a.m.
StopShot a 3 cmc stopper of fetchlands? That's not much of a case for casual breaking either. Leonin Arbiter taxes this at 2 cmc & often is just either removal bait or has pretty minimal game impact when it's all said & done. I'm obviously with skoobysnackz on this one, as I posted about the same thing... Probably some metas feel that this is format-wrecking because they are used to their tutor-rich & endgame-combo rich styles of play. Whereas I have several decks & casual metas where this guy is a 3cmc do next to nothing card (maybe ground blocker?). Maybe it is good to shake things up? How many hoops do you have to jump through with this if you're playing it in a casual meta with about 0 synergistic or combo-cons? Yeah, ok you can search through my Blim, Comedic Genius deck.. did you find a wincon? If anything, the most offense this card is committing is wasting people's time if used wrong. Maralen is corner case (I think I'm the only one in meta who's used her). If she is commander she will be hated out likity-split
November 7, 2020 11:55 a.m.
& all that worst case scenario stuff is maybe your meta. My meta runs so little library search, we have so few combo players it just won't be those scenarios. To argue that a card should be preemptively banned based on meta play just doesn't work. Maybe the meta should shift tactics? or be more careful with their tutors?
November 7, 2020 noon
Mate, your meta isn't relevant in this discussion. My meta isn't relevant in this discussion. We aren't talking about this card from the perspective of one or another particular meta. The discussion is about the impact this card has on the landscape of every meta the world over and just how much of a game changer OP Agent is from a purely fundamental standpoint.
What Synergy and I have been explaining is HOW the meta is going to shift, worldwide, due to printing of this card. Not only are we explaining how every single meta is going to shift to employ this card (because every last single meta will, regardless of whether any one likes this fact or wants to agree with it) and how metas are going to have to adapt to it's presence. We've clearly established that tutoring at all, in any form at any point, becomes an extremely risky scenario. We've also established the layered effects that limit card draw and card acquisition as being the primary complementary compenents to an OP Agent game plan and shown that not only will tutors in general be less viable, but just plain drawing cards is going to become extremely difficult. We've also shown how risky it is just to even run compact combos in a world with OP Agent.
There are some very important ramifications to consider based on these conclusions. First, without access to reliable tutors, card draw sources, or game winning combos, games become inordinately difficult to play at all. This reduces the enjoyability of games at all levels of play. Second, "put into hand" effects become extremely important as these are necessary to find answers in game to a particular game state. These types of cards are not particularly common and effective ones can be rather expensive (Necropotence). In a world with OP Agent and Hullbreacher being perhaps the most commonly run pair of cards in EDH decks, both of which will be on the less expensive side of things (at first), this means the barrier to entry for all levels of EDH play, casual to uber competitive, raises in price level for any player that actually wants to win at least their fair share of the time. Third, the standard types of solutions to problematic cards by employing strategies, tactics, and cards that counter a particularly troublesome and powerful card are not viable against the combination of OP Agent + Hullbreacher (without even considering the other complementary pieces). There is, in fact, no true game play pattern solution to this issue at all. There are tactics and cards that can mitigate the impact to a degree, but these concepts are never going to be reliable because you won't be able to tutor or draw and dig for them. This leaves the only realistic true solution to the issue presented by OP Agent as a ban announcement. There are already cards that do things like what Hullbreacher does, the meta can handle that card alone, but OP Agent is the deal breaker. It amplifies what all those cards and that type of strategy does to a point where it's so dominant that it will become ubiquitous making the critical component that requires removal from the format obvious (both now, and in hindsight).
Now, knowing all of this, I proposed that the correct thing to do is to ban the card preemptively. This will not happen. WotC wants to sell product, personally I want to buy this product and abuse it, and so that is what will happen. To the detriment of the community for as long as that state of affairs is maintained. It's not a question of whether or not the card should be preemptively banned, it should outright never be printed as it is, and yet it will be. The only real question is how long the community is willing to tolerate and enjoy the presence of this card before it is inevitably removed from legal play, and that I cannot answer. Again this isn't ever going to be a question of what should happen with the card, it is only ever a question of when.
November 7, 2020 12:34 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #19
SynergyBuild, whether it's likely to be banned eventually or not, is that reason to pre-ban?
November 7, 2020 1 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #20
ZendikariWol Hey, I am not a proponent of prebans, I keep saying that xD
I even wanted a day or two of Lutri ;)
November 7, 2020 1:22 p.m. Edited.
If it's eventually going to be banned this would not be a reason to pre-ban the card. Definitely not the case.
The only reason to pre-ban the card that is justified is to pre-ban it for the sake of the health of the mtg community if that is a concern. Now we know that this is not always the case, WotC does not tend consider this to be a relevant factor, they generally never have historically. Mirrodin block saw a whole slew of cards printed that were obviously broken as all hell and realized as such before they were ever released and nothing from that set was banned pre-emptively, and with good reason. WotC was confident that the long term benefits would outweigh the short term consequences, they gambled, and they were correct. Yes Mirrodin left a bad taste in the mouths of the community and many many thousands of players quit playing MTG for a time because that set disgusted them (I personally mostly quit playing professional level events because of that set). But time went on, the cards sold out like crazy, despite people knowing the bans would come, and the bans did come. The MTG landscape was very volatile for a time period, but things settled down after a while and life went back to something more normal. Eventually, sometimes many years later, many of those players returned to MTG. And some of those broken cards found unique homes in various formats to become mainstays, focal points, and aspects that drew in more players to the format (Skullclamp, for example). For the price of some very negative short term consequences WotC wound up with a blueprint for how to maintain the long term growth and expansion of their business by printing extremely broken things in short runs with longer stretches of more mild print runs.
That's exactly what's happening here and it's been a very successful business model. So a preemptive ban for any card will never have anything to do with whether or not that card will eventually need a ban, nor should this ever be the case. Preemptive bans are justifiable from the type of standpoint Caerwyn related: situations where WotC and the RC are concerned with the well being of the community in the short term because there is no certainty about their long term intentions in relation to a specific card. If WotC is printing this card as is then I feel pretty confidant making the statement that they also have some sort of well defined long term game plan for the product as a whole and some of it's specific pieces that is about to be released.
It is merely my personal opinion that this is an unwise gamble to take at this point in time with the state of the world in the middle of a pandemic crisis that is liable to last for quite some time to come. I don't think the short term sales power draw of such a powerful card is enough to offset the damage it will do to a community that is already purchasing less paper stock and playing less in person games due to the fact a deadly virus is afflicting the entire global community. I believe it's too big of a short term risk, when all factors are considered, to go for this type of business choice at this particular time and the chance of significant, perhaps irreversible, community damage is too high when long term planning is so difficult to achieve due to the state of global affairs.
November 7, 2020 1:23 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #22
Yeah, no. I'm not buying it. I think a lot more players than you assume, play the game to play the game, and just don't like to lock up tables in the magnitude you're suggesting. Because the way you picture it, there will be no decks left not playing blue or black in the world.
I will not be jamming Hullbreacher in my temur landfall deck, Opposition Agent will not make the cut for Rankle, Master of Pranks, nor for Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire (excellent answer right there in the command zone btw). Commander players all over the world like to play suboptimal decks with janky combos, tokens, big creatures, tribes, any way to personalize the experience and make it fun to play. The problems you are projecting are only for tables that rely on their tutors to do anything they want to, with only interaction, tutors, and instant, hard-to-interact-with win-the-game combo pieces in their deck.
Which is currently the most powerful way to play magic in EDH, because you're playing singleton. But not really, because every tutor counts as every other card in your deck that it can find. OP agent, like Aven Mindcensor, Stranglehold,Mindlock Orb and Leonin Arbiter, will absolutely WRECK cEDH tables, nobody will disagree with that. If you can't answer a 3/2 with your hand and/or boardstate, without searching your library, or if your deck can't win without its Thassa's Oracle, yes, then this card is a major problem for you.
But in the top 100 cards on EDHrec, there's 16 that get hosed by OP agent. 9 of them only search your library for land(s). If that was enough to be banned from a format, Null Rod and Collector Ouphe would have been banned ages ago, because almost every deck plays mana rocks (23 out of 100 are hosed by those). Getting your stuff stolen feels bad, however, so this will immediately make the top Salt Cards list on EDHrec.
It sounds like only the most powerful decks and tables are not ready for the impact of this card, the paradigm shift that searching your library to find exactly what you need at any time, can be answered now, and might no longer be the best thing to do in any situation, it might even lose you the game now. The rest of the world, who can just cast a 6-power creature from their hand, or the command zone, and start beating the player who forbids them to play their deck until he is no more, along with the other 2 players who don't have an OP agent in play and like to see it gone, will shrug and consider this the next unfun stax piece, like Stasis, Winter Orb, Armageddon, Cursed Totem, Drannith Magistrate, Notion Thief, Narset, Parter of Veils, Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top, Glacial Chasm and others that have mostly been self-restricted at 90% of all EDH playgroups in the world, but not banned.
So to preemptively ban this card because a small subset of commander metas around the world will have a hard time dealing with it, is hard for me to get behind, especially if that's the same subset that will have a Force of Will, an Assassin's Trophy, a Cyclonic Rift and/or a Mystical Tutor to find those or a different answer with OP agent on the stack.
November 7, 2020 2:03 p.m.
but SynergyBuild metas are relevant to the discussion if individuals are arguing for ban/preban based on the argument that the card is going to be too game warping across the format. When individuals are presenting meta-based arguments & case scenarios & applying this to the collective we in the format, then yes, it is relevant to say that there are several groups where this will not need to be banned. This is a punisher card with upside that is only as pushed as a meta is. I say good job WoTC keep making punishers with upside - next I want to see a "leaves the battlefield or bounce" punisher with upside.
November 7, 2020 2:04 p.m.
TheVectornaut says... #24
This seems to me like one of those scant few moments where having separate ban lists for different power levels could be useful. I can definitely see the potential danger of unleashing this on the highest level of play, but that's also why I see it as an appealing silver bullet card for casual. In my playgroup, it's generally discouraged to bring more competitive decks unless you've made preparations for such a game in advance. However, literally every other week someone breaks that rule anyway. Having access to a card like this that would disproportionately affect refined lists full of tutors while only stopping everyone else from cracking their Terramorphic Expanses seems like a positive. I've had similar success with Rule of Law and Magus of the Moon in the past. They can range from mildly inconvenient to fairly annoying to utterly useless against most players. But if they can punish the errant Chulane or Gitrog Monster trying to bully the kid that just sat down with Sekki, Seasons' Guide he built from his cousin's old Kamigawa bulk, then I'd hate to see such a card banned from the format before it sees any testing.
November 7, 2020 2:15 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #25
plakjekaas Do you think Prophet of Kruphix or Paradox Engine deserved bans? Because if the argument is that rule 0 sorta replaces that, and players won't do busted things because it's not fun for the table, I agree with you, honestly no banlist EDH is a fair thing, but it does ruin the competitive environment, which WotC, by putting on prize-awarded cEDH tournaments seems to want.
For most casual, non cEDH players, it's a good card, not banworthy, but that's basically true for all cards, I mean why ban the moxen, I wouldn't see any change at my LGS xD
Just personally this is bad for cEDH, that's all I meant by my comments, Maralen could be really rude w/ it in casual too, but that's a deck that you can answer w/ enough removal, they're in mono-black, not a ton of protection in that color identity xD
TheVectornaut The issue with that, is that the way to punish cEDH decks w/ this card is by tutoring this up, if you can't consistently get this turns 1-3, it'd be sorta useless against true cEDH decks. Gitrog would win by then. I still wanna see play w/ it tho!
November 7, 2020 2:23 p.m. Edited.
TheVectornaut says... #26
I never said it would be consistent. Yeah, I still lose to the local Gitrog player 90% of the time, but the fact that answers exist out there is an important thing in my mind. Not needing to instantly concede every game because stubborn players refuse to abide by rule 0 is something I think is worth building around a little. While I'll never have a deck that can always get everything it needs in the first turns (and I don't want to), I'm not above running Buried Alive, Traverse the Ulvenwald, or Idyllic Tutor to have a better shot. And it's not like true cEDH decks are the only valid targets. This card would utterly ruin my middle power level Momir Vig deck, and for as often as I seem to get early Archetype of Endurance into play to cripple black players, that's probably a good thing. Still, if it does end up being too oppressive at lower levels of play, I'm totally fine banning it then. I just think the degree of influence cEDH has over the format is already problematic for casual players, and preemptively banning cards for the minority of the community would be pushing that influence too far.
November 7, 2020 3:01 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #27
TheVectornaut Rule 0 doesn't work where people are stubborn and don't abide by it, unless they lie. Rule 0 is a decision between all players, so each of them can have fun and play within the balance of a playgroup, if someone doesn't want to go by another's personal rule, that's personal rules, not Rule 0.
If you are blaming people for not applying to your personal rules, it's not them being stubborn, it's you being stubborn. If they agree to your rules and then go against it, have a discussion, talk like mature friends, and then if they lie you can decide whether or not to play with them in the future.
Also why would Archetype of Endurance cripple a black deck? Can they not Pharika's Libation it or Withering Boon it or board wipe it, in casual those are pretty common option for metagaming.
November 7, 2020 3:43 p.m.
TheVectornaut says... #28
The way my store runs commander events, we are not allowed to prevent anyone from playing in games for any reason (barring harassment or the like). As a group, we have agreed that bringing cEDH decks to casual events isn't a very sporting thing to do and we even agree to designate non-FNM days for cEDH games. Still, 2-3 of the roughly 40-50 players that come through the store are not willing to abide by that agreement. Many of us have had conversations with these individuals, and in one case, this did in fact resolve the problem. In an ideal world, every dispute would end this way, but reality isn't so kind. For the other cases, they are more than happy to hide behind the store policy and go on massive winning streaks despite a total lack of prize support and the inevitable isolation their behavior brings. It's absolutely their right to make that decision. In response though, I feel the rest of us should have access to as many tools as possible to improve the quality of our experience.
As for Archetype of Endurance, I should note that I usually get Prowling Serpopard out first and I have both Trolls of Tel-Jilad and Tajuru Preserver in the deck (which is composed of only lands and creatures for gimmicks' sake BTW). More than that though, my meta really is on the weaker side apart from the handful of outliers. Despite having 0 instants, sorceries, artifacts, or enchantments, my Momir is still on the very upper end of the meta's power level. When I mentioned that Sekki deck, that wasn't a hypothetical- that actually happened XD
Anyway, I apologize if I've seemed overly argumentative or combative. Maybe I'm still bitter about losing to Iona, Shield of Emeria for 5 years while competitive players kept telling me to get good, and now I secretly want them to suffer the same pain. I'll have to mention that to my therapist...
November 7, 2020 4:26 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #29
TheVectornaut Tbh, you sound like a jerk, I don't ever mind when I bring casual decks to my table and lose, if I play, I don't play to win, people can bring whatever decks they want, and I will play against them with my mono-white soldier list and team up against the best deck or I'll lose. That's okay, there is nothing wrong with losing. Calling people out because they play a different way then you is a trashy thing to do, and the mob mentality of saying "the group decided" as well as saying "but some of the group really didn't decide, so we dislike that they win, and abide by store policy."
No one is hiding behind a policy, because the policy exists for a reason, it's an event, where there are winners, and competitive natures thrive there, they are wanted. If you don't like it, you don't have to play that event. No one would force you to. You seem to want to play more casually, which means the event probably isn't for you in general, but if you want to play it, that's perfectly fine!
Don't be rude to people who want to win, they are allowed to, and that's okay, if you don't want to lose, get better at playing, get a better deck, or just learn to be okay with losing, if it's a casual game first and foremost, don't get mad at losing, it's not competitive.
November 7, 2020 4:48 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #30
I am one of the players that believes that Commander would be more enjoyable if decks couldn't be searched.
November 7, 2020 5:51 p.m.
What about a world of EDH where 3 players don’t get to search but the 4th gets to search not only his or her own deck but also each of the opposing decks?
November 7, 2020 6:04 p.m. Edited.
SynergyBuild the flipside of that is someone going to "casual" events & pubstomping players in the same way all the time with a tier 0-1.5 commander & strategy group. I don't think wanting more options to stick it to pubstompers makes one "a jerk".
November 7, 2020 6:06 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #33
Honestly, if a player is truly competitive they'll adapt. This card is VERY strong but I feel for the most part competitive players will either rely more on engines or time tutors more appropriately.
November 7, 2020 6:14 p.m.
TheVectornaut says... #34
I definitely think I've misrepresented both myself and the others involved in my story here, and I again apologize for that. I'm not a competitive player at all. I don't mind losing at all. The majority of my EDH decks are designed to be bad because I generally prefer to go for wacky strategies knowing that I'll lose, but the experience of hanging out with friends and using that time to catch up is more fun than trying to win. And I don't begrudge anyone who does want to win either. When I play at prerelease, for instance, I tap more into that competitive side so I certainly understand that desire.
The problem I've been hinting at isn't with cEDH players or competitive players as a group, only with essentially one individual that deliberately ignores the wishes of everyone else despite everyone else already making many concessions for this player. I think I should at this point clarify that the events I'm referring to aren't really events in the traditional sense. They aren't WOTC sanctioned, the store doesn't decide pairings, there are no recorded scores or prizes, and players come and go as they please. It basically is a casual setting. But, the store still manages the play space so they get to enforce the no exclusion rule. And for the record, I am very very in favor of this rule. I don't think it's respectful for players to be highly selective about who they choose to play against when that means people are going to be left out. The caveat is that, as human beings, we enter into social contracts designed to make experiences better for as many people as possible. Deciding to not play really slowly and thus waste the little time we get to play together is an example that is universally agreed upon at my LGS. In others, agreement isn't reached so easily. While I prefer to see a casual game go long and give everyone a chance to test out their decks, I acknowledge some will not share that opinion. I fully agree with you that in such cases, players should not be coerced or bullied into accepting a specific set of terms. I nor anyone in my group has ever brought up the topic with this player in anything other than a respectful discussion (at least as far as I'm aware.) Rather, the player in question is the one that has never engaged in discussion and treated others with contempt by refusing to play in a pod if someone else is running a strong commander, refusing to play against proxies knowing that other can't afford to optimize their decks without them, and even sharking younger players in trades. I have played against many players with decks and skills far surpassing my own, and I have great respect for these players. In this instance though, I can't respect the behavior I am seeing.
I really didn't want to go into so much detail calling out this individual, but I realize by not being clear I have made a specific issue into a broad one without intending to out of a selfish desire to get these complaints off my chest. I wish the very best for the cEDH community and if Opposition Agent becomes half as strong as OP has described, I hope it is quickly tested for banning for the health of the format.
(Also, thanks for the support Gleeock. I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to get at despite my poor conveyance of that point XD)
November 7, 2020 6:16 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #35
Gleeock the only way to truly stick it to pubstompers is effective politic - get the table to team up on them 3 mediocre decks should be able to take down 1 decent deck. Unless they're the scrubs from my store XD (I'm mostly joking I only play for prize support not to beat on casuals)
November 7, 2020 6:19 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #36
Gleeock More options for hate is actually something I am for, I just think the advantage this pushes is more powerful than the thing it hates on xD, that's all! (Additionally, to beat said pubstompers or cEDH decks, you need to be able to consistently stick this much faster than usually, requiring ramp, tutoring, and protection, moving your deck toward cEDH in the process.)
I do however think judging people for their gameplay, whether you call it pubstomping or not is fair, it's a game, not anything to get stressed over if you are truly playing casually. If it is allowed within the rules of the game, the store, and the country/provinces/states in question of couse, it is allowed. Complaining and belittling others for the way they have fun is my issue. That's why I said they seemed like a jerk. With the addendums listed by TheVectornaut I'd say they aren't the problem, but that wouldn't be such an easy issue it discuss for other members of the community.
TheVectornaut thanks for a deeper explanation, you no longer seem like a jerk xD
RNR_Gaming is actually, and as usually, very correct. The best way is to use politics, and proper play is the best way to beat pricy decks or more competitive builds!
November 7, 2020 6:33 p.m.
Adaptation is going to be key, but in the end there will be only so much space to explore in that regard, that space won’t be infinite. I can’t say exactly what every potential shift the meta will experience moving forward but the obvious changes are at least something we can theorize and speculate on right now.
I’m excited to get in a thousand games playing with and against OP Agent to have a nice sample size to draw some good conclusions from even if I know this card is something I won’t be able or want to play with and against indefinitely.
November 7, 2020 6:38 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #38
I'm wonder if Obeca might be more viable due to the presence of the theif. "Oh you don't want them stealing your search? Well, if you end your turn they wont steal your Ad Nauseam and win the game next turn. I know very niche but with as much as we're gunna see this card a commander that is basically a counter for it may be kind of interesting.
November 7, 2020 6:47 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #39
RNR_Gaming Sadly it also stops the entire turn xD, still seems like a fun option in casual settings!
Btw, link for people that don't know: Obeka, Brute Chronologist
November 7, 2020 6:51 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #40
I think it has very fringe applications in cedh but its really gunna boil down to "why aren't you playing kess" this set definitely has some heavy hitters but non of them are legendary but that's another topic lol - I don't want this getting the preemptive ban Hammer I wanna see the chaos ensue or not. I mean Gavin is literally the lead designer I don't think he'd create anything for a commander exclusive set that would need to be banned in commander - I'm sure the RC gets harrassed enough as it is.
November 7, 2020 7:14 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #41
RNR_Gaming fam you say no heavy hitting legendaries? I get to play double tymna now in my esper deck (Tymna the Weaver/Sakashima of a Thousand Faces)
November 7, 2020 7:17 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #42
It's not as format warping as the original partners/urza. For the most part I feel they kept the power levels in check. Theres no do all commanders this time around and maybe it's just me but i think with the exception of maybe 3 cards the power level of this set is mostly 6-8.
November 7, 2020 7:19 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #43
RNR_Gaming Yeah, agreed, Jeweled Lotus, Opposition Agent, and Hullbreacher are insane, Wheel of Misfortune is honestly pretty amazing, arguably better than Wheel of Fortune, but often worse, only slightly, and the land cycle is great! The rest of the set is pretty normal however.
November 7, 2020 7:50 p.m.
Jeweled Lotus is only good for mono colored commanders that cost 3 or more mana. Outside of those situations it's actually useless. In the context of empowering Maralen or Urza or Emry or Yisan it's a solid include in lists, and could maybe be included in lists running Sakashima, but over all lotus isn't much of an issue from a pure power level standpoint and it actually helps improve the diversity of the meta as one of the most difficult things for mono colored decks to do was compete with the speed of deployment multicolor decks could manage. More consistent turn 1 Yisans is a big benefit to that deck and mono colored decks like it.
November 7, 2020 8:07 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #45
I would argue it homogenizes rather than diversifies--it's just another copy of Mana Crypt to some strategies, and a serious barrier to entry for many people. and I would also argue that two, even three-color decks could seriously consider running the Lotus (I'm speaking from perhaps a more casual standpoint). Here's the playpattern, the example being my Atla Palani, Nest Tender
deck: T1--Mountain, suspend Greater Gargadon, pass. T2--Plains, Jeweled Lotus, crack it for Green, tap out and cast my commander. T3--Forest, activate my commander for an egg, cast Worldly Tutor for an Avacyn, Angel of Hope or something equally scary, sac the egg, and put her into play... and I'll remind you again, on turn three. And that's THREE color. AND I NEED TO PAY HOW MUCH MONEY TO DO THAT AGAIN??
November 7, 2020 8:19 p.m.
Why use a card slot on Lotus when that role could be equally well filled with Mox Diamond, Gemstone Caverns, Chrome Mox, or, much more importantly, any number of 1 cmc mana dorks and any number of g/x dual lands?
If price is a concern, no, you won't be opting for Moxen, but you also won't be opting for Lotus in that spot because dorks and duals are just plain going to be less expensive. If price isn't a concern, then you will be opting for Moxen, and dorks, and duals, but definitely not lotus because it won't be an efficient play pattern. You won't even get full value out of it for that play pattern and that slot could be held by something that still ramps for 1 mana and costs 0 but doesn't sacrifice as a one shot deal.
So no, Jeweled Lotus is not a card to ever run in multicolor commander decks, there are better options for both budget and non budget deck lists. Jeweled Lotus is a card that is exclusively good for helping out mono colored decks that very much needed the help. Since it's only good for those decks and those decks struggled mightily and weren't realistically viable helping push them toward viability is a positive step in right direction for meta diversity.
November 7, 2020 8:28 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #47
jaymc1130 Najeela, Sisay, Emiel, and a few other multicolored commanders nearly need to run them to remain competitive.
November 7, 2020 8:35 p.m. Edited.
On this I agree with you SynergyBuild. I do want to see the chaos ensue. IMO the chaos will not really be that great, but I do want to see what happens. And if it does actually prove a powerful enough punisher (or weapon with SS/Maralen) to cause a paradigm shift in cEDH deckbuilding that will be interesting too.
November 7, 2020 8:38 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #49
Gleeock Tbh, cEDH is a slow format to change, even when it should have a massive shift, people will have to lose 20 games in a row before they catch on and start making changes.
November 7, 2020 8:41 p.m.
I don't think Jeweled Lotus does anything for these commanders. Najeela is already a highly competitive deck and it doesn't really need help in that regard. And each of these decks has access already to green dorks and ramp that keep them on the same pace in terms of commander deployment as the fastest deploying decks in the format. I'd find it very difficult to believe any of those commanders would even want to run a card that is only ever going to relevant in 5% of games and in those 5% of games where it's relevant it doesn't offer much in the way of improving the odds of winning the match. It'd be a card that's very likely to have a net negative expected win rate change for those decks as an addition when that card slot could simply go to something more impactful.
I mean, is getting Najeela out on turn 1 really going to help the Najeela player? It's not like getting her out a turn earlier is going to matter much when it comes to protecting her, assembling the combo around her, or providing much of a meaningful clock. It'd be a more valid play pattern to drop her with it on turn 2 and have both land drops untapped as back up to help protect her, so speed clearly isn't a factor in this equation, and 2 mana still won't be enough to defend against 3 opponents with standardish interaction packages.
No, I can't see any world in which this card is relevant for multicolor decks. They mono colored commanders with multicolor identities don't have issues with employing their game plans quickly and with access to so many colors don't need to as they rely on playing more conservative and interactive games in the first place. It's the mono colored decks that don't have viable interactive play patterns and are forced to be super fast that want this card. Maybe Gitrog/Umiel would make some use out of it? Aside from these cases it's just not a card multicolor decks are going to want outside of casual settings where it's mostly run for bragging rights or one upmanship.
jaymc1130 says... #1
TotesMcGoats
Maralen is not the issue, it's not the bigger problem, it's just a complementary piece that is only effective in decks dedicated to an OP Agent game plan. The issue is the Agent itself. Banning Maralen does nothing to stop OP Agent strategies that employ Narset, Notion Thief, Hullbreacher, etc. The issue isn't OP Agent + 1 of these cards is a problem.
The issue is that OP Agent plus all of these cards is an overwhelmingly dominant strategy, the key component being OP Agent as this is the card that allows the simultaneous neutering and elimination of opponents as threats while threating a win with a single 3 mana play. The rest of the complementary pieces are already strong, powerful staples, but only OP Agent breaks the concept completely because it does things no other card has ever been able to do. There is no single card that says "I win the game now if you don't stop me and if you stop me you guys can't ever win" but this card comes so close that this, for all practical purposes, is the text printed on the card. There are some two card combinations that essentially fill this role, but OP Agent is the first and only card that does this by itself.
November 6, 2020 10:40 p.m.