Primetime
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 4, 2015, 7:01 p.m. by Schuesseled
What do people think about the likelihood/benefit of unbanning Primeval Titan. Personally I don't see why it's banned at all, sure it's a strong card but it's no where near as degenerate as some other cards, and those are perfectly legal (cough eldrazi).
MagicalHacker says... #3
August 4, 2015 7:21 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #4
Palinchron wins with deadeye. Depths/stage doesn't win and just forces removal. Ith/vesuva is hilariously underpowered.
August 4, 2015 7:33 p.m.
SimicPower says... #5
I do think the banning is inconsistent with Tooth and Nail being not banned. For just a few more mana, you can tutor up a plethora of infinite combos.
August 4, 2015 8:28 p.m.
The reason it was banned originally is that it was format warping. While it didn't win games outright, every green deck ran it and every non green deck ran cards specifically for cloning / stealing it.
If you want to liken Primeval Titan to any card currently not banned, it would Prophet of Kruphix. The second one is played, the entire focus of the game changes. People stop focusing on winning or losing and the player who played it all of a sudden is throwing every resource into keeping it alive. Menawhile, everybody else is either trying to kill it or steal it. Again, it doesn't win you the game, but warps it around the card. Things like Tooth and Nail and Deadeye Navigator, although CAN be used for value, usually are played to finish a game.
Also, the ban-ability of a card should not be how broken it is with Deadeye Navigator as you can stick just about any half decent ETB with it and abuse it to the Nth degree. That just means Deadeye Navigator is broken.
August 4, 2015 8:52 p.m.
enpc is spot on. Prime time is banned because as soon as it hits the field, everyone starts pulling their Control Magic, Clever Impersonator, Take Possession, Treachery etc to the front of their hand. The game becomes, "Who controls prime time?"
Don't even think of it from a Dark Depths perspective. Just look at it from as simple as a raw mana perspective. If you play prime time and get an attack in, you've ramped four mana. The fact that there are probably some spicy utility lands among those is absurd. Not only do you get to a point where you're casting multiple spells a turn quicker, those spells that you're casting several of aren't 3 and 4 drops, their 6 and 7 drops.
August 4, 2015 9:32 p.m.
Consecrated Sphinx is getting close to that point too. I've seen many board states with several token copies of her floating around the table.
August 4, 2015 9:36 p.m.
Karns_Pyromancer says... #9
If you unban it, we might as well unban the moxen and Black Lotus and add the "exile it" line that WotC is so fond of these days.
August 4, 2015 9:38 p.m.
Not to mention when you have optimised decks that go
Turn 1: Land, Exploration, land, Mana Vault
Turn 2: Land, Primeval Titan.
At this point, it doesn't matter that the lands off primetime are comign in tapped. At worst it's a better Explosive Vegetation. If you get it to stick a turn and swing in, the sheer amount of value you've gained (and will keep gaining) is absurd.
And while that might be a bit of a stretch (for a turn 2 play at least) I have seen many decks that have absolutely no problem doing that on turn 3.
August 4, 2015 9:40 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #11
Let's just ignore how grotesque mana vault is and blame prime time
August 4, 2015 9:41 p.m.
enpc I couldn't agree more.
- Turn 1: Suspend Search for Tomorrow.
- Turn 2: Khalni Heart Expedition.
- Turn 3: Resolve Search for Tomorrow, Fetchland, Crack Fetchland (that's 3 land drops), crack Khalni Heart Expedition. Cast Explosive Vegetation or Skyshroud Claim or Ranger's Path. You have 8 basic lands in play on turn 3. Could even Mwonvuli Acid-Moss instead and only have 7 lands.. oh boo hoo.
Ramping in EDH is absurd. That's even without Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt etc.
August 4, 2015 9:47 p.m.
Gspot: hehehe yeah, Mana Vault is just rude.
-Logician: Yup, Consecrated Sphinx is also another card in the category of "get your Clones out". Not to mention the fact that they play off each other is ridiculous.
Let's also not forget our good friend Sylvan Primordial (who was basically made for commander). There's another card we won't ever see unbanned, especially since turn 1 Entomb into turn 2 Animate Dead is a thing (applies to primetime too).
Too many broken cards that give too much advantage.
August 4, 2015 9:49 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #14
T2 animate dead is busted no matter what fatty. T2 jin gitaxis was my jam when I stated edh. The edh ban list is a literal joke, when they claim that fast reanimation and strong rampnare the problem so they ban two 6/7 drop creatures that are prime targets, instead of the degenerate shenanigans that allow it.
August 4, 2015 10:06 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #15
The reason I brought up the first combo is because 9 mana for a 20/20 indestructible flier when you're ahead OR undoing two attackers when your behind ALL on a six drop...
That's the very definition of broken if you ask me, a way to make a comeback impossible when youre ahead and a way to comeback when you're not is a scary SIX drop. By itself.
August 4, 2015 10:42 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #16
Primeval Titan is banned because it offers massive advantage to players in non-competitive metas that's hard to overcome. The EDH banlist exists for the benefit of people playing Battlecruiser Magic, and the ramp it offers for as little as it costs is unbalanced. It would be one thing if it only fetched basic lands, but that it can grab Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth all in one turn with a single blink or haste on turn 4 or 5 is bananas.
Prophet of Kruphix is not the same because it's dependent. You need creatures in hand to play on their turn or you need a board state to activate abilities on their turn, it offers zero benefit on its own just from dropping and existing. It's a piece of a machine, not an engine that rockets you ahead. Yes it will probably win you the game if left unchecked, lots of cards will do that.
August 4, 2015 10:48 p.m.
FancyTuesday: That and the RC has a collective hard-on for U/G/x. That's the reason why cards like Cyclonic Rift, and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician aren't banned. Don't get me wrong, I am currently playing them (well rift anyway) and will continue to until they are banned, but that doesn't change the fact that I think they should be.
That being said, that definately is another discussion in and of itself.
Also sure, Prophet of Kruphix may only be an enabler but it's the same thing with Primeval Titan, it enables huge amounts ofr ramp. If the deck doesn't have land to fetch, he gets seriously nerfed. Same as if you don't have creatures/countermagic to play with Prophet. Its just that the decks who run her have those things in spades.
August 4, 2015 11:09 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #18
Prophet of Kruphix offers zero ramp and no card advantage on its own. If you play Prophet with 5 mana you get 5 mana on each of your opponents turns, less if any of it came from artifacts. The ceiling is still the same you just have more opportunities to hit it. Primeval Titan is a threat on its own that can explode your manabase regardless of if it swings or how long it lives. Unless you're being feed by something like Consecrated Sphinx (again, a dependency) Prophet's advantage is limited to maybe 5 cards in your hand and the activated abilities of your board, likening that to tutoring your library for land strikes me as a little disingenuous.
Don't get me wrong, I will absolutely murder Prophet the instant I see it. I've used Tezzeret the Seeker to fish out Oblivion Stone just to kill Prophet before. Duplicant, Swords, Pongify, Path, throw the kitchen sink at it because that thing has to die. I do the same for Avacyn, Omniscience, Deadeye, Blightsteel, Darksteel Forge, Birthing Pod, Vish Kal, Mikaeus, Dagsson, Sliver Overlord, Necropotence, Heartless Summoning, Consecrated Sphinx, Doubling Season, and a bunch of other cards. There are pieces in every deck that the board has to deal with or that player will run away with the game, Prophet is one of them, the line is that none of them on their own offer the sort of explosive card advantage of Sylvan or Primetime.
Cyclonic Rift is likewise dependent; you don't win with it unless you have a game winning board state. That said, Tooth and Nail is kinda bogus because that's a 100% guaranteed to win the game upon resolving if the deck is built to do it, but that's a social/meta issue that the RC seems content to leave to players to govern. It's a lot easier to point to the "problem" caused by Tooth and Nail and say "hey maybe let's not all do that" than it is for Primetime because of the nature of the advantage it provides.
August 4, 2015 11:53 p.m.
In a game last week, I had a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir in play, and I used Bribery while my opponents were tapped out, only to my surprise to find a Prophet of Kruphix. I took the prophet over several eldrazi options, blightsteel, consecrated sphinx... the works.
Without even getting back around to my turn, I made everyone quit, easily countering everyone's spells and having mana left over to refill my hand every end step. Prophet of Kruphix is absurd. Yes, Prophet didn't win me the game alone, but that was the card that allowed me break the game.
If I were to list the most absurd cards in my EDH metagame right now (disregarding chaos cards), starting from the worst, here it goes...
- Tooth and Nail: Total bullshit. I simply refuse to play against this card.
- Prophet of Kruphix: Overwhelming advantage. If a player keeps control of a prophet for an entire 1 round through the table, they are at least 90% chance to win on average.
- Deadeye Navigator: Too small mana cost for his ability. If I were designing this card, that ability would cost 6 minimum. No other card in magic even comes close to what this card does for even close to the shockingly low mana cost. Competitors flicker on their own schedule, like at the end step in the case of Conjurer's Closet, or only once like Restoration Angel.
- Consecrated Sphinx: Overwhelming card advantage.
- Hatred: Out of nowhere insta-kill
- Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault: Some people will disagree with me here, but just think back to those games where there are four players, and only one player gets a turn 1 Sol Ring. Wouldn't this just be better without that? There's a reason these cards are banned in Legacy. Do you play any decks without a Sol Ring? Seriously, is Sol Ring not an auto-include in every single EDH deck? There's no question that they are very powerful, and I think that EDH would be fine without them.
- Omniscience: One of my favorite cards, but I shouldn't be allowed to do this.
- Cyclonic Rift: Catch-all. Nothing can resist it. Gets around indestructible, hexproof/shroud, Sigarda's ability, etc. It's literally down to a counterspell, Dovescape, an Iona, Shield of Emeria on blue, or Chalice of the Void on 7. Easily splashable, instant speed, absurd.
- Memnarch: This card really doesn't seem fair. The best removal these days is gaining control of the damn thing. This guy puts that strategy into easy mode.
- Mindslicer: This card probably doesn't actually deserve a spot on this list, but as someone who fights strongly to have card advantage and value plays, I literally scoop to this card discarding my hand.
- Narset, Enlightened Master: Free shit, free shit there, free shit everywhere. Extra turn here, extra turn there, free Omniscience over there, free Time Stretch over here, free planeswalkers, free draw power. All the free stuff.
- Ruination: Yeah, if I'm playing one of my mono-colored decks, sure whatever. But I also enjoy playing five color, and this card seems way too punishing. I understand Price of Progress. That's fine. But Ruination is perhaps too much of a blowout against robust mana-bases. If you go from 12 lands to 0 lands, that's game over. If it's just Price of Progress, that's not game over, that's just 24 damage. That's punishing enough. I'd even prefer getting hit by Blood Moon.
I guess I kind of went off on a tangent, but yeah there's a reason why these cards aren't banned and Prime Time is banned. He's even more degenerate than these cards.
August 5, 2015 1:13 a.m.
SimicPower says... #20
I don't think that the mana advantage of primetime is what makes it bannable, it is the combo potential and card advantage. I am still a believer that Sol Ring and Mana Crypt should be banned, as they provide far too much mana too early. Instead of banning things like Omniscience and Tooth and Nail, we have to ban the cards that allow players to cast them turn 3-4.
Eh, maybe Tooth and Nail still deserves a ban. In many decks (including my own), it reads 
: Win the game. So I guess it would be banned along the same reasoning as Coalition Victory.
August 5, 2015 3:08 a.m.
How does Primeval Titan provide combo or card advantage? Resource advantage yes, card advantage, not so much.
August 5, 2015 3:47 a.m.
Prime time could technically retrieve a Tolaria West and something like a Golgari Rot Farm to bounce that to your hand, which can then be transmuted much like what is done in the modern amulet of vigor deck. You could sort of call that card advantage, but I would certainly agree with enpc and call that resource advantage. Getting to a point where you're casting two 6-drops per turn sooner than other players in the pod is what is truly pivotal.
August 5, 2015 3:51 a.m.
Amulet of Vigor + Deadeye Navigator + Primeval Titan can potentially pull every single land in your library onto the battlefield in one massive swoop. :P
August 5, 2015 4:22 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #25
Just so I'm completely clear: Primeval Titan was banned not for the mana advantage it provides, but for the card and resource advantage it provides. All cards and resources it provides, alone or as part of a combo, being mana, of course.
August 5, 2015 4:35 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #26
-Logician using Mana Vault or Exploration to just win with a combo a turn earlier seems better than playing value 6 drops.
August 5, 2015 5:42 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #27
SimicPower, you're a genius. I never though about it but it really is true; Tooth and Nail is just another Coalition Victory.
August 5, 2015 9:21 a.m.
RussischerZar says... #29
@ -Logician: Cyclonic Rift has CMC of 2, even if you overload it. Also, how do you "splash" in Commander? :D
I pretty much agree with your list though.
August 5, 2015 1 p.m. Edited.
RussischerZar you are indeed correct. It is CMC 2. It's always good to learn a new piece of rules knowledge. Thank you.
And I'm glad you mostly agree with my list. :)
August 5, 2015 1:07 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #31
I should point out that the reason for the banning of primetime is quite clearly stated in the wizards article that announced it. It was banned because ramp was too prevalent in their opinion. (RAMP in GREEN, who'da thought it.)
Interesting discussion guys.
Personally I think it should be unbanned, there's lots of really good, arguably better ramp already taking out primetime just loses us one of the coolest.
(for example Mana Reflection is better for ramping (just ramping) as are a lot of other cards.)
August 6, 2015 3:07 p.m.
I don't know, tutoring for both Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for 6 mana seems pretty good. And they enter the battlefield... It allows stupid amounts of ramp.
Should it be banned? I don't think so, but it's stupidly powerful.
August 6, 2015 3:12 p.m.
I'd argue that Prime Time is better than Mana Reflection.
Reflection does indeed double your mana, but Prime Time tutors the lands you specifically need, utility lands if that's what you need. Mana Reflection can get hit by a removal spell immediately and you will have not have anything to show for it. If Prime Time is answered immediately, you still got two lands out of it, minimum.
Reflection is disgustingly powerful, don't get me wrong, but Prime Time is banned and Reflection isn't for a reason.
August 6, 2015 3:12 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #34
The rc doesn't ban on power and explicitly say so. The edh ban list has devolved into a set of house rules with zero consistency. And isn't a way to judge card strength.
August 6, 2015 3:30 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #35
@-x-Juuzou-x-x- mana reflection and those cards is also as good. (Actually better once again).
August 6, 2015 4:09 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #36
I think it's important to distinguish the fundamental difference between ramp from lands and ramp from other sources. The resources provided by the likes of Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, Crypt Ghast, Caged Sun and a dozen other doublers can be completely revoked with common removal. Any deck worth the sleeves it's in is going to run removal for artifacts and enchantments to interfere with their opponents building up an unstoppable board state, land destruction is another matter entirely.
Most decks will only devote a few land slots to land destruction to remove problem lands, things like Wasteland and Encroaching Wastes to get rid of Maze of Iths and Glacial Chasms. Your only options in land-D are spot removal and sweepers; spot removal is inefficient and can't race ramp, sweepers give the guy that has Primeval Titan out a massive advantage. There's no balance to be struck here, no viable option that curtails strong reusable ramp that doesn't also warp the format as to be unplayable like Limited Resources or Balance. You can pick off Mana Reflection with Aura Shards and that guy probably just wasted a turn, you can wipe out Caged Sun with Vandalblast and they got nothing. You Stone Rain Gaea's Cradle that someone just pulled out with PrimeTime and they still have another land and Primeval Titan to deal with.
And I see consistency with the RC's rulings and banlist even if I don't agree with all of them. The banlist is by no means an absolute judge of a card's power in the format or the influence a given card may often have on a game, but rather the raw advantage it would provide in a vacuum or in very common scenarios.
August 6, 2015 4:20 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #37
FancyTuesday, I feel instead of banning Primetime because it enabled too much ramp and therefore let the player with G/x ramp into their plan faster. Playgroups should have been encouraged to explore different strategies other than ramp>fatties>sideways. Green is always going to over-represented by virtue of being the color that is designed with this plan in mind. Primetime didn't warp the format as a whole, only the low/med power metas where ramp/midrange was practically the only strategy across a majority of players.
August 6, 2015 4:27 p.m.
Gspot: but that's not how the RC works as demonstrated by the "No Tuck" rule. The other thing is the RC doesn't doesn't consider top tier commander (from what I can tell - see unbanning of Metalworker as a perfect example) and on a whole, most people are looking to play commadner in that mid band you're talking about. While T/O features some very high tier decks that get a lot of attention, I don't think this is truely representative of commander as a whole (not to mention the magnitude of basic commander decks on this site).
I think the other important thing to point out with Primetime is that it's stripping lands from your deck. This means that while it doesn't offer card advantage, you are increasing the chances of drawing into nonland card. Especially if you're deliberately hitting fetches off primetime to get as many lands out of your deck as fast as possible. And I'll take that any day over a Mana Reflection.
August 6, 2015 10:30 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #39
enpc I never said that's how they do, rather that I felt a hands off aproach would be healthier in the long run.
August 6, 2015 10:34 p.m.
Without doubt. there have been a few rulings like that where it would have been healthier in the long run to encourage inter playgroup discussion. Consider this just me ranting about the RC :P
August 6, 2015 10:37 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #41
Gspot & enpc: I agree. In my very first post in this thread I said that I believe the banning of PrimeTime and the banlist in general exist for the benefit of non-competitive metas. The RC have made it explicitly clear that this is the kind of format they want to foster, that ramp/midrange/battlecruiser style deck is the kind they want to protect. They're happy to let more competitively minded players to follow the French rules.
My league certainly doesn't follow the RC to the letter. We still have "banned as Commander" and use the old tuck rules. That's all part of the grand social experiment that is EDH.
Agunman says... #2
Deadeye Navigator
August 4, 2015 7:10 p.m.