Really Dissapointed in MTG
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 22, 2016, 3:40 p.m. by Profet93
I participated in my first MTG tournament just the other day. Still quite unfamiliar with varying commanders everyone has, I look at my options and decide to win game through 1 of my 2 win conditions, MLD or Combo. Now I understand those are not fun ways to win, but my main playgroup (who introduced me to magic) is competitive, so I try to build my decks to be the best they can be.
I got A LOT of hate from people who just targeted me next game and told me I would lose "points" for the tournament (as if I cared). I was just happy that I was able to pull out my win condition in a tournament format. People didn't really take that into account because they were salty, which is understandable to a certain degree. It wouldn't be fun if someone did it to me (it has, happened to me on MANY occasions), but I would at least be able to appreciate the process/steps my opponent has taken to win.
The main point of this is as follows. Why is it fair that I get SO much hate when someone plays a turn 3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest with hexproof and windfall's all of our hands and then adds Teferi's Puzzle Box to lock the board to the point where NOBODY could do anything. Why is it that his strategy which is more consistent, reliable, resilient, and DEVASTATING not receive any hate but my LD on turn 6-7 is out of hand?
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Living Plane was the MLD combo.
just to preface my comment i should warn you its this is just my opinion and i have no proof of this other than experience.
I believe it's mostly based on feeling as opposed to reason. most people hate LD is because it fundamentally prevents you from playing magic. magic requires cards to be cast, cards require mana (usually) and mana comes from lands (usually). so in essence other will most likely see you as stopping them from playing. while leovold is still pretty much a lock at that point, it still allows you to pretend like you are playing because you have all the pieces youre just not allowed to keep them. you draw then discard it and youre out, but you still had cards. you still have lands. you still feel like youre playing magic. but now it feels like youve been beaten down. someone is taking your cards each turn. but LD makes you feel like youre not allowed to play anymore. to compare it to another game lets try monopoly. someone is taking all of your money every turn, is leovold. you have lost, but you can clearly keep going around the board collecting money when people land on your property and then giving it up. LD is someone taking all of your properties and prevents you from buying more. at that point you're not playing the game any more.
should they get any saltier about LD compared to Leovold? no theyre essentially the same. will people? almost certainly.
not sure if that made much sense, but i hope it helps.
November 22, 2016 4:03 p.m.
The points are for prizes. Idc for prizes, I play just to play.
Like they could use artifacts or mana dorks for their sources of mana. Interesting how the artifact player had no mana rocks (a weakness in his deck, or perhaps just being unlucky).
November 22, 2016 4:12 p.m.
Sim_Will_CMcantfindmehopefully says... #5
Well when there is a points system the goal is too amass points. Winning in the game is usually a few points, then certain actions, can add or remove points, it's a different kind of winning.
This is to add more fun, variety, and skill into games.
November 22, 2016 4:20 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
I wouldn't go so far as to say that a point system adds fun or skill into games. Fun is subjective and nothing about a point system rewards skillful play any more than determining a winner within the already established rules of the game.
People don't like combo or MLD because they don't want to actually interact. They will say that they like "interactive games" but what they mean is they like bouncing creatures off of each other and praying to the gods of the top deck. As opposed to paying attention to other people's boards and interacting with them at instant speed to prevent what they are attempting to do.
November 22, 2016 4:55 p.m.
Shane.Allen says... #7
Profet93 Don't ever care what bitchy, whiny pussies say when you beat them in a game. Remember, and I feel you're like me, which is good, winning, even in competitive EDH is all that matters. Whether that means infinite combo or land destruction or stasis lock, it doesn't matter. People are going to bitch, because that's all they can do. You live in a country full of whiny piss-heads who have been coddled and babied and handed everything to them so they didn't have to earn it. Remember, in the real world there is no gold medal for second place. There is no participation price. Thanks for showing up. Next time your friends whine tell them to grow up and if you cant take the game, go to a different country, cause we don't want those people here.
November 22, 2016 4:57 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
If your event had a point-based prize structure, then the other players most likely had an expectation that their opponents would be playing in a way meant to maximize earned points and minimize lost points. In events like this the point system is usually designed to reward "positive" and "fun" plays and discourage "negative" or "un-fun" strategies. If you show up with a deck that flies in the face of the point system the other players think they're working with and generally cocks it up for everyone involved, yeah people are going to be annoyed with you. Not because you're a bad person or anything. You've just messed with their expectations too much.
To your specific question: I have no idea why people viewed the Leovold, Emissary of Trest lock differently from your Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite lock. I think many players are just more biased against LD compared to other "un-fun" strategies.
November 22, 2016 5:03 p.m.
It will always change as well. Nobody minded when I played my grief stax discard when there were combo decks running rampant. But once that certain group of players stopped showing up my deck was suddenly toxic, and got targeted. If there was a "buy-in" I feel no remorse. But if it's just a new playgroup, consider having decks of different power levels, i.e. I'd never bring my stax deck to a casual table
November 22, 2016 6:11 p.m. Edited.
Megalomania says... #10
Maybe they just don't like you. Lol. But seriously, there are a lot of times when players get hated on for reasons outside of the game. Gloating or flashing a smug grin after a win or a good play is sometimes enough to get a bunch of people to gang up on you. Let's not forget that multiplayer commander is a social format.
November 22, 2016 7:23 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #11
I say kill em all, fast and show them what real Magic looks like. It's EDH, where the card pool is vastly larger than most other formats. As well as it's a tournament...beat the living snot out of them with the most broken things. Don't sit down at the table if you can't handle the hot sauce I say. Good for you. It's not like they couldn't "counter" or respond to your plays to kill or bounce your stuff. I say shame on them for being bad players.
November 22, 2016 7:31 p.m.
I still cant fathom why theyd run a tournament, thats basically says dont play your $3000 t1 combo deck, like its tournament ive came to win, as efficiently as possible and as degenerativly as possible.
November 22, 2016 8:06 p.m.
I've played in shop metas before. Basically, you'll have maybe 1 to 5 people there who know what they're doing. The other guys really don't know jack about building for or playing in competitive metas.
My buddy steamrolls most nights with a Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury because few people give enough credit to how powerful elf-ball can be even under a general like her. His deck gets underestimated to such a degree that he doesn't have to even join tables at the end of the month to determine places if he doesn't want to.
I play blue combo decks and get hated on to a much higher degree. I actually ran Hanna, Ship's Navigator as my commander for the first two weeks once just because I wanted to fly under the radar. Worked really well until I hit the tables occupied by the top 5. Had to swap to Grand Arbiter Augustin IV at that point. It's laughable that people don't expect others to play their best decks when there's lots of store credit and a true dual on the line.
November 22, 2016 8:15 p.m.
Sim_Will_CMcantfindmehopefully says... #14
I believe many points systems add more strategy by making play unique, and discouraging and encouraging many play styles and cards, you have to evaluate each one in a new way, "will this cost or gain in points that this entails be worth the playability?", and the unique rules do add (subjective, yes) fun for me.
November 22, 2016 8:28 p.m.
My shop used to run non-assigned seating and a point system where the winner got 2 points and the 2nd (or person sitting to the right of the winning player if win wasn't controlled (Laboratory Maniac)) got two points. It encouraged players to collude like hell. When I was playing back then, it wasn't uncommon for me to go on defense to protect one or more of my friends. If I needed the points, it would be easy as all hell for them to sandbag and give me the win. Otherwise they could just end me.
We were essentially forced into playing in this way as the other good players banded together most of the time. Heck, they even brought in friends regularly to protect them with U-based decks with some combo-based win cons to fall back on if they weren't able to protect their friend. In the end, the top of the bracket ended up being a complex mess of alliances for the most part and most games didn't really have any politics as defacto teams had been established well in advance.
I hated playing in this shop. Most of it had little to do with shop EDH. The tournament was poorly judged, had a terrible ruleset, and the shop did nothing to discourage rude and unacceptable behavior from players.
November 22, 2016 9:52 p.m.
I definitely understand the experience you're going through. I play a shop where the meta is competitive and there is a point system and have gotten salt for playing stax as a response to all of the combo decks. My lock was Maralen of the Mornsong & Stranglehold. A lock that shouldn't be too hard to break but no one could so I took a lot of salt for it since people didn't get to Storm off or combo with ad nauseum. People will complain when they lose and they can choose to accept the loss, learn from it, and get good (like you have) or just wallow. If they choose the latter, might as well enjoy the winning process.
November 23, 2016 12:37 a.m.
ClockworkSwordfish says... #17
Feel no remorse; feel nothing. Crush them all. Watch the light extinguish in their eyes as their dreams are reduced to so much dust beneath your heel.
Magic players are vermin.
November 23, 2016 1:50 a.m.
@Wizno What kind of competitive groups can't handle that? Lol. Git guud, I guess.
November 23, 2016 8:45 a.m.
After doing some thinking, I won't quit MTG. I also decided that I should forget about their negative comments and realize that they are just salty and that they should understand the competitiveness of the tournament format.
November 23, 2016 1:17 p.m.
No, but for real though, if you're not playing in a tournament, it's best to try to build your deck according to your player group. That helps everyone have a better time and balances games out.
November 23, 2016 1:22 p.m.
I have a Talrand deck which sometimes loses to my friend's barely upgraded Meren Pre Con. I'm sure that with even more upgrades, his win rate will increase. I have weak decks, I just also like to play strong ones.
November 23, 2016 2:44 p.m.
Yeah. Talrand's a pretty terrible commander while Meren's actually pretty decent. Not surprised.
November 23, 2016 3:06 p.m.
Sometimes we play EDH here in my city, and since there are very high leveled players, we usually laugh of those locks. The common joke is "1. Beat XXX (a well known player); 2. Beat the players which are using blue; 3. Beat Daretti players (me included); 4. Start the politics".
It may look unreasonable, but since all of us have different decks, we bring out different games just because, if we always use the same decks, that makes things unfair and less fun that it should be. One day a Daretti player used Krenko as a Commander, just for hiding the planeswalker and sneaked through a solid win. After that, we started to use different and weird Commanders, and after we stopped because that turned into a obvious thing. All in all, fun's the golden rule, and we're having lots of it even with some salt.
Last week I threw Blightsteel Colossus + Lightning Greaves and Darksteel Forge + Mycosynth Lattice with two mono-colored Commanders on the board, just after they used Damnation and Wrath of God. That's the kind of salt we face.
Sim_Will_CMcantfindmehopefully says... #2
Well, points for tournaments do matter. It's how you win. Anyway, people like bitching and moaning, if you move past a playgroup it's something you have to get used to.
November 22, 2016 3:49 p.m.