This Infinite Turns? Worth it in casual?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 12, 2017, 12:03 a.m. by maxon
I was looking into wizards since I'm planning on getting the Grixis wizards pre-con. I'm not really into infinite stuff, but this seemed fun. The general's ability:
"Eminence - Whenever another nontoken Wizard enters the battlefield under your control, if Inalla, Archmage Ritualist is in the command zone or on the battlefield, you may pay 1. If you do, create a token that's a copy of that Wizard. The token gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step."
My thought was, if I had a merfolk sub-theme I could play Wanderwine Prophets, use the general for a hastey one and swing for a free turn. Alongside Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker this could result in unlimited free turns.
Does that actually work or am I missing something? Do you think it'd be worth bothering to go for a merfolk sub-theme in a grixis wizards build to include this combo?
Yeah, have the token exile the original one and somehow give the tokens some variation of unblockable (nor hard in wizard tribal).
You now have infinity turns. I doubt that should be a problem, though, since the entire things dies to any kind of removal, stop a trigger effect, or counter spell. You'll get to do it, maybe, once, but your friends will be the wiser next time.
August 12, 2017 12:52 a.m.
DrukenReaps says... #4
Everything is worth it in casual games!
Merfolk tend to be wizards and the tribes overlap a lot so you are not likely to brake out of the wizard theme even if you change all your creatures to merfolk.
I will say that people dont like to sit and watch other people play so expect to get targeted after doing this.
August 12, 2017 12:56 a.m.
I don't fully understand how it could go infinite without kiki. Can you explain a bit more detailed?
August 12, 2017 1:36 a.m.
1) Cast Wanderwine Prophets leaving a way to make 2 mana (but not at once).
2) Wanderwine Prophets ETB, Champion trigger a different merfolk.
3) Commander trigger, pay one, make token copy of Wanderwine Prophets.
4) Token copy ETB trigger, champion, exiling the original non-token.
5) Swing with token, assuming it has some variation of unblockable. (Archetype of Imagination as an example.)
6) EoT trigger, Token exiles itself, non-token Wanderwine Prophets etb.
7) Champion and pay 1, creating a token that doesn't get exiled until the -beginning- of your next end step (your extra turn).
8) Repeat
August 12, 2017 2:04 a.m.
You'd probably do best with having Thassa on the field honestly.
But this could actually be super legitimate if you have some way of making it hexproof/indestructible (for example, Rush of Vitality on an Isochron Scepter to keep your tokens from being destroyed mid combat).
August 12, 2017 3:33 a.m.
I try to avoid combo wincons in Commander. I almost never enjoy winning with them, and I almost always hate losing to them, especially infinite turns; anything that effectively says 'no one else gets to play Magic.' Yes, a savvy player will typically leave open resources and outs available, but this isn't always the most exciting choice. Some combos are amazing and fun and unique, however, and I'm happy to lose to anything once, but my favorite Commander games are battlecruiser, with strong board states slamming into each other again and again until victory is achieved through either attrition or outright overrun.
August 12, 2017 8:32 a.m.
Winterblast says... #10
I wouldn't even call that a combo but rather a combat trick. It's nothing I would focus on getting on the board because it doesn't really guarantee a win, not even if no one counters the extra turn merfolk...it's essentially a three card combo that needs mana to work
August 12, 2017 8:49 a.m.
For the first Wanderwine Prophets, would I even need another merfolk though for the champion trigger? Does this work?: When Wanderwine Prophets enters, the champion trigger goes off. Before it goes to resolve I use the eminence ability to make the clone. Then the copied wanderwine's ability goes off. I champion the original. Then I don't champion a merfolk for the original, but it's not around to have to sac it.
August 12, 2017 10:10 a.m.
You're forgetting that you need to have other merfolk to sacrifice to the combat damage trigger in order to get that extra turn; it's not automatic. You'll need at least one merfolk as sacrifice fodder for every extra turn. And you can't sacrifice the token copy, because that will break the chain with the original.
August 12, 2017 12:19 p.m.
Combat trigger sac is the token, so no the only merfolk you need in play for combat is the token itself.
You need one extra merfolk so that when the token leaves play EoT and the original comes back, you have something to sac for the champion trigger. Otherwise the original just dies upon returning to the battlefield.
The way the clean-up step works is if any abilities are put on the stack during clean-up, another cleanup step begins after the current one ends. So even if you tried to get tricky and make a new token during the end step, you'd just get yourself stuck in a loop of "pay 1 mana, take an extra end step, your merfolk doesn't die until your next end step." Therefore you need one merfolk in play just to make it to the next turn with your champion a merfolk guy still alive.
August 12, 2017 3:29 p.m.
Errr edit: I'm dumb, cklise is right, you need one merfolk to sac per combat to keep that loop going so that your wanderwine only enters at EoT
August 12, 2017 3:32 p.m.
Edit2: curse the timeouts.
1) Starting from combat with token in play and wanderwine in exile, you connect and sac token to itself.
2) wanderwine etbs, with etb on stack you make a token copy and champion original wanderwine.
3) token exiles self end step causing wanderwine to etb, you pay for a token copy again and champion wanderwine and that token lives to next turn to connect again. You don't get stuck in a cleanup step loop because token is exiled at the beginning of the end step, not beginning of cleanup (which is the last part of end step).
So it's 2 mana total per turn and you just need wanderwine and the commander to infinite loop, along with a way to connect with people.
So my first in this series of 3 is wrong, 2nd is wrong, you just need 2 mana and wanderwine to go infinite, and a way to make the token connect.
August 12, 2017 3:40 p.m.
Winterblast says... #17
DuTogira it's just because the new wizard says "at the beginning of your next end step" and not "at the end of turn". Once the end step has begun, all other "at the beginning of next end step" the triggers have to wait for the next end step while at the end of turn or until end of turn really ends when the turn ends.
rockleemyhero says... #2
Do you even need kiki? Just copy the original merfolk (assuming you paid for the champion of the original one). Then the copy champions the original. Swing with the hastey copy, sac it to itself to get the extra turn trigger. Then the original comes back and you can start the chain over again assuming you pay another 1 for the copy.
I'm sure there's an easier way to do this without infinite colorless mana as well.
August 12, 2017 12:26 a.m.