What are your opinions on "thief" decks?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 28, 2017, 4:15 a.m. by SteelSentry
I was bouncing ideas for a Thada Adel, Acquisitor list off of a friend and at one point they mentioned that this seems like a mean deck. His big problem was the searching of opponent's libraries for artifacts, but not necessarily the deck as a whole (ie. Control Magic is fine, Bribery is not). I agreed with him on that point, but I went and asked another friend and they said a deck based around stealing cards from others isn't "nice" at all. I feel like I'm a little too lenient on how nice a deck needs to be (my Grenzo deck has both Ruination and Blood Moon) and I don't see the big deal with them. What is your reaction if someone comes to the table and flips over Thada Adel, Acquisitor or Empress Galina as their commander?
Update: I made it a Yasova Dragonclaw deck, here's the link: Five Talon Discount.
Also, when I asked what your opinions on Thada Adel, I didn't mean for it to become a heated debate about tutors :)
Decks which consistently lock everyone out from playing their own decks is a problem. At that point if a single card is the cause, then it should be considered to be banned.
Stealing can still be dealt with, if your cards are being stolen, other players can help you by focusing on beating down the player who steals cards. The beat down should not apply at the beginning of the match, only when the player is beginning to steal powerful cards (from the field or the deck).
July 28, 2017 6:18 a.m.
Winterblast says... #4
CChaos firtsly, being locked out of the game is often a result of having decks with inequal power levels or wrong/too greedy mulliganing that results in a underwhelming start and mid game. Or it's just bad luck, which can happen as well. Not having the correct response to a threat can sometimes decide the game and that's the nature of the game.
Secondly, letting someone steal the problematic stuff is the problem that people should try to prevent. A reaction when it already happened is often too late because the thief is most likely in control of the game then. It would really have to be like one turn afterwards or two at most.
July 28, 2017 6:30 a.m.
I think the strategy is fine. I personally like a Sen Triplets playstyle sometimes. Playing other people's stuff can be a lot of fun, it makes each game you play different which helps prevent the deck from feeling stale.
The only thing I don't like, BUT is a natural part of the game and thus shouldn't be complained about, I don't like cards that go through somebody's deck. Even though you may only be searching for a specific card type, it allows you to see their entire deck. Any knowledgeable player will be able to see the entire decks strategy, combos, answers, etc. It gives far more knowledge to the searching player than is really fair imo.
I would like to add that it typically takes a long time for somebody to tutor through another players deck, looking for the best card. That isn't fun for anybody.
July 28, 2017 8:49 a.m.
Mediumrick says... #6
I think its completely and utterly ok. That is what blue does...
Someone wouldn't get pissed at a red deck for burning or a white deck for amassing tokens and blue uses it's opponents resources against them. People kind of amaze me by how butthurt they get over a game in which the goal is to win. For me if someone combos off, cool, good job. If they MLD, nice, i failed to stop it. If they build a stax engine, its my responsibility to break that down. People just don't want to include answers in their decks. Everyone is more than free to adjust to what they don't like and answer it in game with MtG cards rather than whine about it.
July 28, 2017 11:20 a.m.
landofMordor says... #7
It probably depends on how you're playing it. Nobody likes being locked out, but if you're just stealing one or two creatures per turn and using that as your strategy (not just using stealing creatures as a means to locking everybody out), and if you're not targeting a specific player, then it'll probably go over okay. Another way to balance out stealing is by using randomized effects like Possibility Storm.
July 28, 2017 11:31 a.m.
Dredge4life says... #8
What Ash3n said. Unless it's competitively leagues ahead of your playgroup, their is absolutely nothing wrong with the strategy.
July 28, 2017 12:50 p.m.
I generally run steal effects for creatures in my blue decks, and tbh most people never have a problem with them. Generally killing the creature or destroying the permanent gets it back, and there's lots of ways to get things back in each color or get rid of what's stolen in each color that most steal decks won't counter.
Of course, it depends on the playgroup, like any deck choices you make. If your playgroup isn't cool with some superoppressive steal deck, then maybe don't use it with them.
July 28, 2017 1:39 p.m.
SteelSentry says... #10
iAzire I agree, and that was my thinking when I cut Thada from the deck.
My big problem is I have two playgroups. One has stuff like Atraxa Superfriends and Gitrog dredge running around, which the Yasova deck I'm building should do fine in, but the other has a few people who use unedited precons. I do have a durdle deck that does fine in that group though, so I won't worry about it.
July 28, 2017 3:47 p.m.
That probably fixes your problem actually. I would definitely say just use Yasova in the more competitive group (although idk if Yasova would do as good as Thada Adel there).
July 28, 2017 4:20 p.m.
SteelSentry My issue is more so with groups that don't play each other often.
It should be fine if you play them often and know their decks. This is especially the case with unedited Precons.
The tutoring, especially every turn can become a problem because it takes FOREVER if you don't have an idea of what you're looking for.
Also I just personally find it rude for people to look at my whole deck, before or during the game, learning the Win Cons, overall strategy, hate pieces, etc. It is a part of the game, but I would rather people play my decks before looking at them.
July 28, 2017 4:28 p.m.
Winterblast says... #13
iAzire the part with getting information about the opponent's deck is a pretty important aspect of searching someone else's library. It's even a thing that using Mindslaver enables you to look at the opponent's SIDEBOARD in a tournament environment. sometimes it's more important to have a look at the opponent's deck with a card like Thada Adel than actually stealing something useful from that library. Even if you know someone's deck it's sometimes good to check again if that one combo piece is really still there or if the deck has been refined since you last played that guy
July 28, 2017 5:31 p.m.
SteelSentry says... #14
Winterblast I agree that knowing someone's deck is valuable information, I feel like it is detrimental to the fun, social environment my EDH groups have. I've had someone kicked Sadistic Sacrament me before, out of spite to let their friend win. The worst part wasn't removing all my relevant cards, it was them rifling through my deck. I've also had someone Mindslaver and use my Sunforger, and critiquing my instant package. I'm just going to avoid all of that and not play Thada Adel. Once a card hits the table though, it's open game.
July 28, 2017 5:43 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #15
SteelSentry Someone Sacramenting you so their friend can win can be filed under social/politics, a huge part of EDH. Plus as much as I like long games someone has to win eventually.
As far as steal decks go, they're fine. The only strategy I don't care for is MLD but considering my Atraxa runs Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Nature's Revolt as a win con I've learned to just roll with it.
July 28, 2017 6:32 p.m.
Winterblast says... #16
I think the whole discussion about fair and unfair mechanics doesn't lead anywhere. Most people who say some strategy or move was unfair are simply pissed because they've recently lost to that strategy or because they have no idea how to play against that strategy. As a passionate control player I absolutely hate when people play stuff that randomly help other players on the table...I could say that's unfair because it ruins my control plan and basically takes me out of the game but it's also part of the game and legal, so it can't possibly be more unfair than what I wanted to do to my opponents.
I think we should look more at how effective something is and if that effectiveness is needed in our playgroup or not. After this discussion here I'm inclined to put thada adel in my UW Stax, lol.
July 28, 2017 7:16 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #17
Just my two cents. A friend of mine runs Yasova Dragonclaw and when he gets to stealing stuff it is really hard to deal with but I wouldn't call it mean a single free sac outlet like Ashnod's Altar screws him. yes I lose creatures or whatever when sacing but I gain something from the sac and he lost a spell or perhaps an entire turn. It is a strong strategy but one of the better responses is easy to get a hold of and is often the strategy of a deck. To me mean is locking people out of playing a game, things like leovold lock and mass land destruction are mean. A deck based around stealing from others is also only going to be as strong as the rest of the table +/- a bit.
July 28, 2017 10:55 p.m.
Deck searching is like storm. If you do it fast and don't provide running commentary as you're doing it, it's tolerable. If you take 2+ minutes searching through my deck while mumbling to yourself, I'm gonna get annoyed and target you not just in this game, but in every game going forward where you use a deck that wastes my time.
Magic players don't like it when they aren't allowed to play the game. That means the 3 big sins of gameplay are:
1) playing an oppressively powerful deck, making opponents question why they even bother playing vs you.
2) Preventing someone from playing their deck (too many counterspells/mld/taxes are the big offenders here).
3) taking so long to do your turns that you spend more time playing than all of your opponents combined (usually caused by abuse of tutors both to search your deck and your opponent's decks).
Tl;dr: you can deck search your opponents and it isn't the end of the world, but do it fast if you must. Otherwise it's like making your opponents wait at a DMV just to finally be blessed with your play.
July 29, 2017 12:40 a.m.
If you are running theft or mass land destruction, you usually only get to do it once against me. I take it personal, and I hate you out from here on.
Pretty simple.
August 1, 2017 8:19 p.m.
I agree with taking turns that go too long is where the line should be drawn. There are ridiculously powerful cards in magic. That's just the way it is however I didn't sit down at the table to watch you shuffle, or take infinite turns. One playgroup I played with instituted a "house rule" of you can only search the top 10 cards of your deck for any tutor (including land tutoring). Then you shuffle your deck at end of turn. If you were to draw you would just draw the 11th card.
August 4, 2017 1:04 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #21
In my opinion, if it was printed and isn't banned, it's totally okay. Just don't get mad when I hit it with Counterspell.
August 4, 2017 1:29 p.m.
Winterblast says... #22
epajula that's a pretty weird rule as it actually ruins the consistency of every deck to the point of pure randomness. If you don't know for sure if you can even find a legal target for something as simple as a fetchland, you can't really risk playing that card at all. Everyone who got their fetchland Stifle d at least once can tell that a wasted fetch is the worst that can happen if you counted on it.
I agree that people who search a library for too long are annoying, but only if the situation doesn't warrant taking a bit more time. For example if someone is trying to get an Intuition pile with a deck that they haven't played for a long time yet, it's understandable that it takes some calculations and thinking. If someone plays the same deck every week and still can't find his preferred targets for a Tooth and Nail it's a reason for avoiding games with that person.
When searching an opponents library you should also know what kind of card you are looking for and you should think about what you can possibly find when targeting a certain player. If that library has very unexpected contents (for example last week someone wanted to get a Mana Crypt from another player with Thada Adel, Acquisitor only to find out there wasn't a single 0 mana artifact in that library...which is indeed unexpected) it's also understandable that you might look through the pile a second time, but it still shouldn't take ages.
August 4, 2017 2:06 p.m.
Winterblast The whole purpose of EDH in the beginning was "pure randomness". That is/was the reason for any singleton format. I'm not going to sit here, and hate on the style but what is actually the point of playing a 100 card deck that in actuality only does one thing (two if you count tutors)? I also respect that being able to repeat a task consistently within 100-card singleton isn't an easy thing as well.
It's easier to build around a rule that says search only the top 10 then it is to always have to have counterspell/removal in your hand to prevent your opponent from going infinite... again.
August 4, 2017 2:32 p.m.
Winterblast says... #24
epajula actually the point was not to make playing and winning completely random but to enable unique games because the probability of getting exactly the same opening hands and draws is very low with 100 single cards. This means games will be unique in the sense that the needed plays for a win will always be different and it takes a lot of spontaneous adaption of your strategy to still make your deck do what it should do, much more than in formats that run multiple copies of each card in a much smaller deck and therefore have more predictable situations in the same matchups.
What this house rule does is simply to make the very basic act of fetching for a land a random act, as if you were flipping coins at every spell and if you lose the flip that spell has no effect...that's randomness to such a high degree that it's impossible to reliably pursue any real strategy and it even makes important and strong cards against fetchlands (like Aven Mindcensor, Root Maze, Thalia, Heretic Cathar for example) absolutely irrelevant because you implement their hindering effects as a game rule. That's basically as if you would let every player have a Demonic Tutor instead of drawing because everyone on the table agrees to do so. House rules exist, sure thing, but this one warps the game in a way like free tutoring would, just the other way round.
August 4, 2017 4:08 p.m.
I mean, that's kinda a bad house rule. It ruins a lot of good cards and kinda breaks a lot of fun ways to win for most players.
Hell, I wouldn't even call that a house rule so much as a warping of the format. It basically make any land ramp spell worthless because you're not guaranteed to have a land in those, much less a basic like a lot of spells require. Nor do you definitely have a creature for people who play things like Worldly Tutor.
If I had to deal with that, I'd probably build my decks way differently, and make my deck into basically a good stuff deck. Because there would be basically no guarentee I'd get any strategy going.
August 4, 2017 4:39 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #26
Draw engines still function under those restrictions.
August 4, 2017 5:57 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #27
If anyone I played with implemented that search only the top ten rule I would play Maralen of the Mornsong good stuff. She just becomes so much more powerful under that kind of restriction. That rule warps the format too much and changes the power of so many cards like scry effects. I get some people take too long to search or that infinite turns yadda yadda yadda are ridiculous. But instead of warping the format to where you are not even playing commander anymore try answering them. Combos take time and effort to set up so understand the opponents combo and run a deck that moves faster. As for searches taking too long implement something more like losing life or taking commander damage after 40 seconds if it is an issue every time with that player. That doesn't alter the game too much while still putting pressure on them to speed up. You also need to understand that with 100 cards searches just take time the game is going to be slow. This isn't the format of 30 min games it is the format of 2 hour games. Big clunky creatures and things that simply dont work unless you can spend 40 mana belong here.
Tutors actually open up what is playable too. I have built quite a few decks that won't work without tutors because they were so durdly and dumb and needed 6-10 cards to come together in a specific way to have a chance of winning.
Commander would be a better format if everyone just played what they wanted instead of banning things and making up oppressive rules.
August 4, 2017 7:16 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #28
It sounds like you need to run more answers in your decks rather than utterly castrating tutors. Infinite turns are easily stopped. Combos have answers. Run answers, it's that simple.
August 5, 2017 12:06 a.m.
And here we see the tappedout community getting on a tangent telling another player how he's enjoying MTG the wrong way.
August 5, 2017 2:43 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #31
DuTogira it's actually a discussion, they brought up a house rule their group plays with and people are giving their opinions. Isn't that how a forum like this is meant to function?
August 5, 2017 2:50 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #32
Also when you change a core function of the game you tend to drive away new players.
August 5, 2017 2:52 a.m.
If the topic of this forum were "house rules and their enjoyability" then sure, you'd be right. This is about theft decks, therefore "house rules impacting tutors which is only slightly relevant to a thread whose topic implies tutoring through an opponent's deck" is in fact a tangent.
August 5, 2017 2:56 a.m.
Winterblast says... #34
Well, it just had to be said that this is not a good way to keep people from taking too much time when searching libraries. I'd rather use a timer every time someone searches for something than massively warp the game with unpredictable outcomes.
August 5, 2017 3:15 a.m.
SteelSentry says... #35
I just realized that when I finished the first draft of the deck, I didn't post it here. If anyone's still on topic, here's the link: Five Talon Discount
August 5, 2017 5:04 a.m.
Just to be clear, I understood this post as a "how does my playgroup stay healthy". I didn't tell anyone how to play, or "warp" the format. I initially said I wasn't going to hate, but seriously... if you can't win without tutors maybe you don't deserve it.
Oh, EDH began as a "house rules" format.
August 7, 2017 12:52 a.m.
SteelSentry says... #37
Actually, this post was a "I need help building a fun theme deck", and since said decklist is complete, I would love some feedback on it
August 7, 2017 12:59 a.m.
DrukenReaps says... #38
epajula it isn't that we can't win without tutors. Its that the rule you brought up drastically alters the effectiveness of certain strategies and cards. Some of my janky funny decks that everyone at my table thought were fun would simply be pitiful and totally crippled by that rule. I could also make some that become tier 1 with that rule. I think there were many less game altering ways to go about fixing your table. If that rule is what works for you then it works for you I guess. I suppose my big problem with it is you effectively ban cards without banning them and I don't think anything should be banned in commander.
As an example I simply wouldn't run terramorphic and pals or cultivate and pals because they are going to be useless which given that I cant afford a bunch of the better lands means I might now have an impossible time running cromat under that rule. Maybe the rule doesn't impact as hard as I think, I have not checked. But I'm willing to bet card draw is king, which means blue is king.
Again if it works for your group then great, just seems way over drastic to me.
SteelSentry sweet you got a list together, I might not have much to say about it but I'll take a look at least within the next few days.
August 7, 2017 2:35 a.m.
Winterblast says... #39
epajula it's exactly like Bhaal said, you don't prevent certain people from winning with that method - if I can build a turn 3 combo deck with the normal rules, I can build and pilot a deck that wins with your house rule as well. It's just a completely different strategy and everyone who uses cards that search a library at all under that rule could just play a game of dice because the risk of finding nothing with something as basic as a fetchland is not worth it. You could try it yourself and build a BUG infect deck and see if anyone can handle it with that rule.
I'll have a look at your deck SteelSentry and leave a comment there
Winterblast says... #2
A friend plays Thada Adel as well now. It's a very specific strategy but not better or worse than others imo. Of course the first target with thada adel will always be a mana crypt or sol ring in the early game, then probably Jitte...but what do we have Hurkyl's Recall for? There are numerous ways of answering that strategy, bouncing the stolen artifacts is probably the best because it gives you back your own stuff, maybe even a needed combo piece.
Stealing stuff from others is part of the game and you should be prepared for the possibility. Often a simple counterspell is enough. There's even Homeward Path against stealing creatures! For nonblue decks that have a constant problem with typical blue mechanics I would recommend playing Choke. Old school colour hate is often a good solution for known weaknesses in your own deck. Nothing is "mean", everything is just a matter of deckbuilding and being prepared for what you think is necessary.
July 28, 2017 5:15 a.m.