Will Blade of Selves be banned?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 15, 2015, 6:54 p.m. by MagicalHacker
On a scale from 0% to 100%, where 0% is absolutely not going to be banned and 100% absolutely going to be banned, how likely do you think it is for Blade of Selves to be banned?
Let's just Brainstorm the precedents for cards like it, and anticipate what action/inaction the EDH committee will take :)
Deadeye Navigator will be banned before Blade of Selves
November 15, 2015 7:05 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #5
Cost a lot to equip, useless in a vacuum and provides no evasion/protection. Even if it's going its effectiveness is limited by player count, in a 3 player game it's barely more powerful than Conjurer's Closet. Doubt very much that it will be banned, the RC doesn't seem to ban pieces no matter their potential unless the state they benefit from is enormously common, like Recurring Nightmare.
November 15, 2015 7:05 p.m.
Well, it's highly abusable for creatures like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Eternal Witness and any creature with a good ETB, but it's still not as strong as flicker effects frankly.
It offers almost no protection and can only be used once per turn at your combat. Not to mention that the clones aren't going to stay.
I don't think it's ban worthy, but a lot of decks should and could use it.
November 15, 2015 7:08 p.m.
It's pretty fun in a multiplayer game with something like Kokusho, the Evening Star, but I seriously doubt that it's going to be banned.
November 15, 2015 7:08 p.m.
0%. There is nothing out there that has such a powerful ETB as to warrant the blade being banned. If there was, then the ETB card would be banned because of Deadeye Navigator. And there is nothing in combat so oppressive as to be banned. This doesn't even trigger multiple declared attackers as the tokens are put into play attacking, so you can't abuse that.
November 15, 2015 7:09 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Rather than answer this question directly, let me ask the reasons for which you think Blade of Selves would even be considered for a ban.
November 15, 2015 7:10 p.m.
There's really no need to. The only cards it would be over powered with are already banned.
November 15, 2015 7:12 p.m.
griffstick says... #11
Short list of cards that makes it busted. Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Master of Cruelties, Armada Wurm, Craterhoof Behemoth, Terastodon, and Grave Titan.
November 15, 2015 7:15 p.m.
Even those cards don't immediately bust it griffstick. Players could survive any of those attacks. Plus Master of Cruelties wouldn't work.
November 15, 2015 7:18 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #14
It is one of the top 15 cards to ban in EDH. That being said, Deadeye Navigator, Prophet of Kruphix, and Iona, Shield of Emeria are MUCH bigger targets
November 15, 2015 7:21 p.m.
The worst thing (or at least the most advantageous combo) I could think of that would be fitted with the new blade would be Sylvan Primordial, Protean Hulk or Primeval Titan and they're banned.
November 15, 2015 7:22 p.m.
Yeah Master of Cruelties would work since on the gatherer page it says: An ability that triggers when something "attacks and isn't blocked" triggers in the declare blockers step after blockers are declared if (1) that creature is attacking and (2) no creatures are declared to block it. It will trigger even if that creature was put onto the battlefield attacking rather than having been declared as an attacker in the declare attackers step. Still though, it is such a niche case and there are more oppressive things that aren't banned so i can't see it being banned any time soon.
November 15, 2015 7:29 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #17
0%
It is a 2 mana equipment that equips for 4. even ignoring the equip cost it has to be compared to things like Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of the Meek and Swiftfoot Boots. I feel that all 3 of those are better than Blade of Selves and none of them are banned.
You have to think about what myriad does and assess what use a myriad equipment would be.
The most obvious fit is a strategy that wants to attack with creatures. So the three possibilities are voltron, tokens, and fatties. It helps voltron not at all because the copies do no commander damage and aren't suited up to do significant damage. Getting 1 extra token per opponent is miniscule to token strategies. Fatties is probably where it would shine the most, but I can't think of a single one besides Hydra Omnivore that would benefit from it greatly.
The second thing to consider is cards with ETB, LTB, or on hit triggers. The enablers in Bant Blink are all much stronger for etb/ltb effects and they are legal so I don't see this posing much of a problem. This only leaves on hit triggers. Most creatures with on hit triggers don't have native evasion so I don't see that posing much of a problem.In a deck with global evasion buffs Blade of Selves may be playable for fatties or on-hit shenanigans but I don't think it is anywhere near strong enough to even be considered for a ban.
November 15, 2015 7:30 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #19
Let me present what I think is the biggest reason against a banning.
Wizards just printed this product. It's one of its biggest selling points, moving into the hottest sales time of the year for them. They ban this card, there's no reason for people to buy the product that contains it. They lose money. Plus, they already had a fiasco when they reprinted Trade Secrets in the original Commander set, and it got banned a few weeks later. People were irate as hell over that, and such an uproar would further negatively impact sales.
Combine that with the fact that you're talking about a card with a mechanic that was introduced specifically for Commander 2015, and that just adds up to a further refutal of the notion that Blade of Selves will be banned.
November 15, 2015 7:41 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #20
Personally I have no strong feelings one way or the other. If it's banned, I wouldn't be surprised, and if it is forever unbanned, also not surprised. The reason I think it could be banned is because the committee is a bit unpredictable at times.
I guess I'm 50% on it currently.
November 15, 2015 7:45 p.m.
I mean it's not really a broken card, so why ban it? Not to mention that planets of creature cards are banned mainly because they're too valuable in a game. With those creatures, it becomes one big fight of how do I steal/copy this creature?
But how many times has someone thought to copy or steal an artifact right off the bat? Especially equipment, something that you not only need a creature for, but you need a decent one to synergize with an equipment like Blade of Selves as well?
Not really worth any form of banning. Also this thing will die very easily to artifact removal, which pretty much all players use in edh decks now.
November 15, 2015 7:52 p.m.
Things get banned from EDH for two main reasons.
1) Ruin the "fun" of the format, which Blade of Selves does not do by any stretch. It's easy to remove, and it doesn't give the creature it is equipped to any kind of protection. If it also said "Equipped creature has hexproof" then we would have a problem. The card is also not oppressive, like Braids, Cabal Minion, and while it does work very well with ETB effects, it is limited to one creature that can be easily removed. If the blade gets banned, so will the Deadeye, as other people have mentioned.
2) The game revolves around those cards. One of the main reasons Sylvan Primordial got banned was because once he hit play, the game became, "Control the Sylvan." Eating, reanimating, flicker, etc. The game became so focused on this ONE creature that it distorted literally every meta it was in.
November 15, 2015 8:11 p.m.
Izu_Korasu says... #23
edh is a highly political game, and almost all thee creatures mentioned in the thread get serious hate already.
Blade of Selves is strong, but its costly, has limited timing, and scales with the number of opponents who can react to it.
I think that it will find a nice niche in abusing cards like Solemn Simulacrum, Veteran Explorer or e-wittness providing a far less threatening advantage
November 15, 2015 10:20 p.m.
PandaJohn71 says... #24
The only way to make this broken would be to have a large number of players, have one playing an Abzan Token deck with Siege Rhino and equipping it to the Rhino and attacking with Doubling Season + Parallel Lives as well as other token doublers (such as Populate effects during the declare blockers step.
Also if you use this with a Legendary creature it is useless cause the copies are unable to get any damage cause they enter and then have to be instantly removed to comply with the Legendary Uniqueness rules.
November 16, 2015 2:09 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #25
It's really not obnoxious or oppressive enough to warrant a ban. There's really nothing you could put this on that would make it that bad. If you wanted to really abuse it you have to set up your board for it without anyone disrupting you. There's much more potent things you could do if you're able to make that happen.
November 16, 2015 3:03 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #26
Blade of Selves isn't that scary. It's answerable by destruction of the artifact or the creature it's equipping. Granted, there are cards that would make it stupid. (Reaper King, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Hydra Omnivore, Master of Cruelties, Strionic Resonator). But it's not a bannable offense.
November 17, 2015 11:05 a.m.
Izu_Korasu says... #27
Deadeye Navigator may be oppressive, and Iona may limit some players, but they tend to end or atleast are a step toward ending games. Its why infinite combos are allowed/accepted in edh, because they end games.
the main difference (and reason i give it a 60% chance to be banned based on the EDH rulings of un-funness recently) is because a strong Blade of Selves trigger is similar to land destruction, in that unless your doing it to resolve a game, don't be "that person". (along with other game crippling combos)
also surprised nobody mentioned Massacre Wurm as a blade target. also Lazav, Dimir Mastermind could create some interesting interactions with hexproof. (allowing for etb/ltb and death triggers)
November 17, 2015 4:25 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #28
Or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Yes, the legend rule will kick in, but as a state based action all creatures with toughness of 0 or less will also be put into their owners' graveyards.
November 17, 2015 4:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #29
I'm not following how you think a strong Blade of Selves trigger is similar to land destruction. Could you provide a specific example please?
Massacre Wurm would be Plague Wind on a stick it would actually move the game toward conclusion quite well. and Lazav, Dimir Mastermind would come in and die without doing anything unless you are counting on your opponents to have something with a good etb/ltb die while he is out. I have found that counting on your opponent's deck to provide you with something is suboptimal.
November 17, 2015 5:02 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #30
Blade of Selves stuck on to an Avalanche Riders, Acidic Slime, or Terastodon perhaps?
November 17, 2015 5:14 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #31
Come now, he didn't say a strong trigger caused LD. It was heavily implied that like LD it was something that was "unfun" and didn't move the game toward a conclusion.
November 17, 2015 5:18 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #32
Ah. So, don't be a dick without doing it for a game-ending reason.
November 17, 2015 5:21 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #33
Well i'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind saying Blade of Selves is akin to LD which is notorious for just slowing others down with no win condition. Myriad was specifically designed to move games toward a conclusion so I am not following how it is anything like LD.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Massacre Wurm are single sided board wipes against sufficiently small creatures and as such definately move the game toward conclusion. If you are running Avalanche Riders you are already in LD so saying Blade of Selves is akin to LD is a bit odd. Terastodon and Acidic Slime have better targets than land, but if you are hitting land you obviously have take care of all the other better targets so you are moving the game toward conclusion.
November 17, 2015 5:35 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #34
I'm not sure how. I didn't initially say that, i'm just playing devil's advocate.
November 17, 2015 5:40 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #35
I know, I'm just clarifying what my question was so that if you would like to play the devil's advocate to it or join in on my confusion.
November 17, 2015 6:02 p.m.
I highly doubt Selves would be banned. There are WAY higher priorities above selves - especially since the RC will watch the card for at least 4-6 months before making any type of decision.
Zur and Narset are better candidates over that equipment.
November 17, 2015 6:04 p.m.
Izu_Korasu says... #37
maybe land destruction isn't quite the right comparison (although alot of the proposed creatures can have an effect similar to mass board/land destruction so it has a similar feel)
a good chunk of cards got banned because of the sheer advantage they provide (like Erayo, Soratami Ascendant or Limited Resources) to the decks that play them at the expense of "doesnt make the game fun/interactive" and Blade of Selves seems like it falls into that niche of catalyst that makes cards brokenly good, dies to removal and tends to only make the game less interactive/fun. (especially being able to go in any deck)
as a side note, Wizards has been including cards that give opponents options via tempt, offering, join forces. and myriad could have been c15's version, making an token for each opponent attacking the defending player.. turning blade of selves into a group hug, or anti-archenemy type artifact. feels like a missed group/political opportunity.
November 17, 2015 6:24 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #38
Except it's not even close to being as degenerate as either of those cards would be. It's just value on ETB/LTB triggers, that's it. It doesn't actually do anything that wasn't more or less possible already.
November 17, 2015 8:38 p.m.
Necropotence + resolute archangel + blade of selves: attack draw 60 cards or so at end of turn. End up with 40 life. Or anything that lets me pay life to deal damage.Ban literally a dozen cards or this one equipment. Guess what Sheldon will do...
November 24, 2015 2:49 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #40
@ae0n5105: Probably nothing, because that's a three card combo that involves the most easily removed card type in the game, a slow and clunky equipment, and quite frankly if you can pull that off you deserve the win.
Deadeye Navigator is far easier to break and that hasn't been banned. I don't even fall into the camp that thinks it should be banned, and the RC appears to agree.
November 24, 2015 3:48 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #41
I mean paying six mana in a four player game to flicker something three times is like a 0-drop Deadeye Navigator.
November 24, 2015 4:34 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #42
I suppose, but I'm talking not just in terms of mana investment but also how few other cards you need to make the thing oppressively powerful. DEN often needs only a single other card and is much more resistant to removal. It also doesn't require an attack to work. Blade is quite fair by comparison.
I don't think there's a very good reason to ban either card.
November 24, 2015 4:42 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #43
I will reiterate my point from 2 weeks ago. Every enabler in Bant Blink is stronger. Blade of Selves is somewhere near the 10th strongest blink enabler. I don't think that is worthy of a ban.
November 25, 2015 9:55 a.m.
Izu_Korasu says... #44
the thing is that every enabler in bant blink, is ... in bant.
Blade of Selves power and possible ban potential isn't in decks that already blink and copy like bant/UW, but in the fact it can fit in every deck because it triggers etb/ltb/damage effects.
but its limited by number of players, limited timing and lack of protection. so while it will not likely be banned, it may always be a consideration depending on how much play it actually sees.
November 25, 2015 2:13 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #45
And there are plenty of strong ETB/LTB in Bant as well. So giving a weak enabler in colorless goes with the design philosophy that artifacts can do what is in colors but not as strong. I don't think that there are any ETB or LTB strong enough in red or black that a mediocre enabler would even be considered for a ban.
Murderous Redcap could do 4 damage per turn in a 4 player game, but that would require attacking with Murderous Redcap. You would be much better off just taking the enablers from blue and making a Grixis deck.
November 25, 2015 3:23 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #46
Karador, Kaalia, and Alesha could use it, and those are just some of the tricolored legends. There are so many nonblue commanders that would like their own sometimes-better-sometimes-worse DEN. I hope it's not banned, cause getting it with Stoneforge Mystic is such a strong play in our format and I have a mono white equipment deck :D
November 25, 2015 4:09 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #47
I don't know anyone who runs any of those commanders, what creatures in those decks would be strong enough to even consider a ban? Maybe Master of Cruelties in Kaalia is strong with it, but that is the only interaction that I can think of that might make it ban worthy. And the only reason I think they might consider a ban because of that is that Worldfire is banned, the RC doesn't like setting life totals to 1.
November 25, 2015 4:59 p.m.
Izu_Korasu says... #49
its more that Worldfire alters the gamestate completely, and almost always overwhelmingly in the caster's favor (same with Sway of the Stars and Upheaval even Biorhythm)
on the other hand creatures like Master of Cruelties or Shaman of Forgotten Ways have abilities that act similarly but are generally slower, easier to deal with (for all colors, not just blue) and are generally kinda meh.
Blade of Selves is similar on that aspect, but almost every playable creature has a powerful effect with it (that blink doesnt have) ... all the star dragons, titans, primordials
Dragonlord Atarka, Omnath, Locus of Rage, Massacre Wurm, Moldgraf Monstrosity,
exile like Archon of Justice or Ashen Rider
attacking threats like Blightsteel Colossus, Craterhoof Behemoth or Wurmcoil Engine
even sac engines like Butcher of Malakir
(a small fraction of the creatures that get a large powerup with the blade)
November 25, 2015 6:03 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #50
As a Kaalia player, I will never run Blade of Selves. That combo doesn't even work anyways.
I think you guys are all missing the "six mana to do anything useful" part of this. What cards seriously break Blade? Sure, it's good, but broken? I'm not seeing it, it's nowhere close to Griselbrand level.
griffstick says... #2
Not happening.
November 15, 2015 7:03 p.m.