Answers to Cyclonic Rift

Custom Cards forum

Posted on June 21, 2019, 12:02 a.m. by TriaxialFleas

So if any of you play Commander or EDH, you may know this card Cyclonic Rift . This card is notorious in our format and is a main staple in really any blue deck. Its the 4th most played card and 1st most played Blue card on edhrec.com. Fellas, this card is higher than Counterspell, the most blue a blue card can be. It's a 1-sided instant board wipe that sends everything to the hand, mucking up your opponents plays then on out.

There really aren't any answers to this besides countering and not over extending, so what are some card concepts you guys have to, maybe not nulify its effects, but make it seem not so back breaking. I'll Start.

Mass Illusion: 2U

Instant

If a creature entered the graveyard or was returned to your hand this turn, create a token copy of each of those creatures. They are illusions in adition to their other types with "When this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it."

goodair says... #2

blue doesnt have a hard tiem vs rift. Outside of Teferi's Protection ($46, c'mon!), that's where the card gets ugly without playing some really situational card only to fight rift.

June 21, 2019 12:05 a.m.

enpc says... #3

Counterspell

Instant

Counter target spell.

Part of the issue with cyclonic rift is that often times the player with the boardstate will not play to force a rift, or will do nothing when they should have been attacking, at least in casual games. I know it's a very strong card, however there are plenty of ways to put pressure on the rift player to help negate its power.

June 21, 2019 12:59 a.m.

Sarkhan420X says... #4

Pyroblast

Red Elemental Blast

June 21, 2019 1:43 a.m.

goodair says... #5

Leyline of the Rift

If Leyline of the Rift is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield. If it is not in your hand, search your library for Leyline of the Rift you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You have hex proof from cyclonic rift. (Other players are still affected.)

June 21, 2019 2:40 a.m.

Demarge says... #6

City Plane In a Bottle WUBRG

Sorcery

Each player reveals their hand, library, and graveyard and exiles every card From Ravnica, Guildpact, Dissension, Return to Ravnica, Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze, Guild's of Ravnica, Ravnica Allegiance, and War of the Spark.

"War of the spark had some nasty after effects on Ravnica." - Venser, Gitaxian Engineer.

June 21, 2019 8:24 a.m.

Tzefick says... #7

Hmmm... to think of how each color would deal with this.

White: Would probably do something that deflects or negates either partly or the whole effect from themselves.

Could be

White's counter Show

Instant

Choose up to three target permanents.

Until end of turn, whenever a targeted permanent is returned to your hand from the battlefield, instead put it under your control tapped.

Until end of turn, whenever a targeted permanent is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, return it to your hand.

Limited to still let Rift have some effect, could be used against multiple other sources, like Galecaster Colossus . Some resource protection against board removal on multiple levels against land, enchantment, artifact or creature destruction.

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Green: Would likely shrug the magic off through some creature or enchantment on the board.

Green's counter Show

"Absorb Beast"

Creature - Beast

Whenever an opponent casts a spell or activates an ability that would affect multiple of your creatures, it only affects "Absorb Beast".

3/4

This kinda feels more white with the Pariah -esque effect but I would consider that the creature absorbs the flow of the mana and thus is the only affected target.

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Red has Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast so I don't think they need additional counters. Possibly they could get a version that is 2 CMC but has a more generic mode that can be active when not playing against a Blue player. Could just be tacking Cycling on a 1 CMC Pyroblast that cannot destroy blue permanents.

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Black is kinda difficult but I figure it is within their nature to be "sharing the love/misery".

So...

Black's counter Show

Instant

Until end of turn, whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls would destroy or exile a permanent you control or return a permanent you control to your hand, you may do the same to a target permanent that opponent controls that shares a permanent type with the destroyed, exiled or returned permanent.

It can be used against single target removals but is devastating as a counter against one-sided board wipes.

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Blue... you really don't need another answer here than what is already present.

June 21, 2019 9:54 a.m.

CastleSiege says... #8

Object Permanence

Instant

Permanents can't be removed from the battlefield this turn.

So much for an unstoppable force!

June 21, 2019 12:12 p.m.

PIayswithFlRE says... #9

Gruul Guardian

Creature

Flash

Creatures you control can't move from the battlefield to any other zone unless they've been dealt damage greater than or equal to their toughness.

As long as it's not your turn, Gruul Guardian assigns combat damage equal to its toughness rather than its power

0/5

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Gruul's answer is going to make you stand and fight their large creatures, no destroying them, exiling them, or, as with Cyclonic Rift, bouncing them to your hand.

July 12, 2019 7:22 p.m.

Tzefick says... #10

PlaysWithFire So add Avacyn, Angel of Hope , Vigor or any other means to prevent damage or grant indestructibility, and your board cannot be interacted with at all. Sweet.

August 1, 2019 9:21 a.m.

PIayswithFlRE says... #11

Tzefick, I mean, can still take them out with -X/-X cards, but, yeah, it limits effective board wipes (of your creatures; you can still lose the enchantments, planeswalkers, etc) to things like Massacre Girl or Find / Finality .

What can I say? I want to play big creatures and fight with them.

I almost want to change it to something like

---

Tholok of the Old Ways

Legendary Creature - Centaur Warrior Spirit

instead of just "Gruul Guardian" since it would clearly be an auto-include in a Nikya of the Old Ways commander deck

August 2, 2019 8:32 p.m.

Tzefick says... #12

PlaysWithFire But they haven't been dealt damage, so the effect from your Gruul Guardian still prevents them from moving zone.

It also interacts very poorly with Deathtouch.

I get what you're trying to make, but the wording, and especially the use of the term "zone", makes it problematic as zone has never been used before in ruletext, except the Command Zone.

I would suggest a more in-boxed version that is clearer on its effects:

Revision version Show

Gruul Guardian Creature - Beast Flash Creatures you control can't be sacrificed, exiled or returned to their owner's hand or their library by any source controlled by an opponent. Creatures you control have indestructible as long as they haven't received damage equal to or greater than their toughness or received damage by a source with Deathtouch.

As long as it's not your turn, Gruul Guardian assigns combat damage equal to its toughness rather than its power.

0/5

'

This way the effect is clearcut and you avoid the use of zone. You can still get around it by using -X/-X effects, but it could be included that "the power and toughness of creatures you control cannot be changed by an effect controlled by an opponent."

I kinda wanted to just include in the first paragraph, that creatures you control can't be destroyed and include a clarification that they can still die to damage and Deathtouch. However the ruling specifically states that lethal damage and Deathtouch sources is the equivalent to destroy, so it would effectively be indestructible.

I wont delve into the power level of this bad boy, but I think it is on the stronger side.

August 13, 2019 7:55 a.m.

Tzefick says... #13

Well... it seems like the editor mishandled my linebreaks in the spoiler code. Try again;

Revision version Show

Gruul Guardian

Creature - Beast

Flash

Creatures you control can't be sacrificed, exiled or returned to their owner's hand or their library by any source controlled by an opponent.

Creatures you control have indestructible as long as they haven't received damage equal to or greater than their toughness or received damage by a source with Deathtouch.

As long as it's not your turn, Gruul Guardian assigns combat damage equal to its toughness rather than its power.

0/5

August 13, 2019 7:58 a.m.

PIayswithFlRE says... #14

I like the lethal damage wording.

I went with the words I used, particularly the "greater than or equal to toughness" part so that -x/-x would work. They've taken 0 damage, but have 0 toughness, so they die. Or am I missing something. I did forget about deathtouch, though.

Maybe "taken lethal damage or have 0 toughness"

August 15, 2019 12:01 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #15

Funkydiscogod - that is incorrect. The state-based action for dying due to lethal damage specifically states that it only applies if the creature has a toughness greater than 0. Same holds true for lethal damage via deathtouch.

704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.

704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

August 15, 2019 12:39 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #16

It does make a difference, it creates ambiguity.

Rule 120.6 is the rule defining lethal damage as "If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage . . . "

That works fine with your rule, and is in-line with your position 0 damage marked = 0 toughness; thus the creature could still die due to lethal damage.

But that's not the whole text of Rule 120.6, and the language after the above ellipsis is where you create ambiguity: ". . . and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704)."

This creates paradox: Rule 120.6 says that the creature is destroyed pursuant to a SBA; there is no SBA that destroys a creature for having 0 toughness--you've created a situation where the creature both can't be destroyed and must be destroyed by pitting two rules against one another.

That, in turn, raises all manner of questions. How does this implicate replacement effects, such as regeneration? How does this interact with indestructible? Does this mean I can have a bunch of 0/0s running about?

It's a whole mess, and, while the individual might be able to rationalize it, the rules themselves cannot.

Thus, the best option would be "Spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause creatures you control to leave the battlefield unless they've been dealt lethal damage or have a toughness of 0 or less."

It's more wordy, but that's a small price to pay to avoid ambiguity in the rules.

August 15, 2019 4:46 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #17

That should work without causing any strange rules problems. It is a bit of a nuanced distinction, so you'd probably still want reminder text such as: (The creature will still leave the battlefield if a spell deals lethal damage or reduces its toughness to zero)

August 15, 2019 9:16 p.m.

PIayswithFlRE says... #18

I'd like to thank you both, Funkydiscogod and Caerwyn, for fleshing out a much better and cleaner wording for the card than I originally had.

It's got enough text on it, with the reminder, that having the "Deals damage equal to its toughness when it's not your turn" part would make the card very wordy, but, is 5/5 with flash and this ability a bit powerful for three mana?

Perfectly happen to be wrong, but does it need either a slight cost increase to maybe Sunder Shaman 's cost, or Defender (which, again, kind of does the original intent with fewer words) or some kind of requirement that you attack with at least one creature each turn if able? Or, I guess, make it legendary.

Thoughts? And thanks again.

August 16, 2019 7:15 a.m.