Choosing Piles with Lili
Custom Cards forum
Posted on Aug. 21, 2019, 1:49 p.m. by Liszt
Would it be game-changing if the ultimate of Liliana of the Veil would be vice versa in the sense that your opponent gets to make the piles and you choose? What would be a drawback or upside if sides were switched?
Funkydiscogod if the player that has to sacrifice the cards can make the piles they know what they have in their hands when they make the piles. So they can balance what they have in each pile with what they have in hand.
August 21, 2019 11:13 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
It is not as simple as "the player that makes the choice second gets more advantage". This may come from playing a lot of combo, but there is power to choosing the piles too. There are ways to separate the same group of permanents so that either pile can win or so that neither pile can win.
August 22, 2019 7:32 a.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #6
Even if it may depend on the situation i would say that whoever picks has an edge. The piles could even be 1 card and 10 card. But if that one is emrakul my opponent would keep that (as Funkydiscogod pointed out). Sure it would be still a great ultimate with the inconvenient that i've most likely lost the game nonetheless. However this is an extreme situation where you have a super powerfull card so the point is if you can rid of it with the ultimate of liliana. In a normal situation you can divide the two piles in a way that whatever your opponent picks you still got an advantage. But being him to make the choice he can make the less painfull considering the cards in his hand. The point is that "liliana of the veil" is a powerfull pw and they probably tried to balance her by giving her this kind of ultimate. If the ultimate was "destroy half permanents target opponent controls" it would have been too powerfull.
August 22, 2019 10:15 a.m.
As is the case for 95% of cases it is better to be the last to make a decision in a chain of decision making events. The reason being you have the most information available at the time of your decision. It is sort of comparable to Red's punisher mechanic . The one making the last decision will always choose what they think is the most beneficial to them.
Same goes for cards like Will of the Council . The last player in the chain has the most power as long as the vote is not already decided. In a 1-on-1 game there is no power as the vote is already decided by the caster.
Funkydiscogod already pitted the idea of the enemy having Emrakul, the Aeons Torn .
Gidgetimer claims that making the piles can be more beneficial. While it is likely true in some few corner cases because your opponent cannot figure out which pile is more valuable to you (he mentions combo), I think it is largely untrue. If the receiver can split two piles and both piles can win, then I challenge Gidge to reverse the decision making and make a split that changes the outcome.
To comment on the question in the topic; reversing the decision making on Lili's ultimate would definitely make it a lot stronger.
August 23, 2019 3:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
Off the top of my head, if you are on UR Painter and have:
Grim Monolith (untapped)
Grindstone (tapped to make it so that the untapped monolith isn't an immediate combo)
The piles of
Goblin Welder , Grim Monolith , Painter's Servant
Goblin Welder , Grindstone , lands
Make it so that you can combo off the next turn with either pile. The piles of
2x Goblin Welder , Grindstone
Painter's Servant , mana
Make it so that the earliest you can combo with known information is 2 turns away. The difference that the extra turn makes to lili's controller is huge.
August 23, 2019 8:47 p.m.
So basically your idea of the scenario is having redundant copies of the combo piece on the board that tips the scales?
I think my point is proven that it is only in very few corner cases that choosing first is more beneficial.
August 23, 2019 10:59 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
1 Welder isn't a combo piece. It is recursion.
2 You said you challenge me to find a scenario where making piles was more beneficial and I gave you one without much thought. TBH the untapped monolith is less likely than double welder.
3 My point wasn't that it was equally likely for piles to be as strong as choosing. The point was that it is possible for piles to be stronger in some scenarios. Therefore it is not as simple as "choosing is stronger".
4 If you don't like multiple copies of the same card let's do an Oloro EDH deck (again off the top of my head).
Lili needs to deal with both a hard lock and the combo that the lock allowed them to get out. The one making the piles gets to decide if the picker gets to deal with one or both.
The point isn't that these scenarios are likely. It is that they exist and therefore the statement "choosing is always better than making piles" is false.
I am done giving scenarios in which you can make make piles so that either win or neither win. You were unaware that the situations exist and that is fine. You are now trying to act as if you had stopped at saying they are corner cases and didn't "challenge" me to prove what I said was true. They are corner cases. But they exist.
August 24, 2019 8:15 a.m.
Gidgetimer "The point isn't that these scenarios are likely. It is that they exist and therefore the statement "choosing is always better than making piles" is false."
I never claimed it was always better. I said exactly that it was possible in corner cases that it was better to choose first rather than late, but they are far in between. I challenged you because I thought you would come up with exactly such scenarios that are the exception to the rule but are ever so unlikely to occur.
August 26, 2019 4:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Tzefick, My first post was a full 44 hours before yours. You must think that I am some sort of psychic if you are trying to say that my original point has anything to do with you. I gave 2 scenarios in which I backed up what I said about there being scenarios in which making the piles is more advantageous. And then I reiterated that my point wasn't that such a scenario was likely, just that the posts previous to my first weren't considering some scenarios.
I am done with trying to explain how time works to a narcissist. I am unsubscribing this thread and won't be checking in if someone mentions me. Have fun moving the goal posts.
August 26, 2019 6 p.m.
Gidgetimer Then why do you repeat yourself then? Especially since in my first post, I agreed with you that in rare occasions it can be more beneficial to pick first. And continuously stated that in further comments. Your latest post, that I previously quoted, certainly looks like a direct response to my post.
No one but you and I (and ShutUpMokuba) have commented since your first post. So forgive me if I assume your responses are pointed at me. But if they aren't, then I'm just further puzzled why you feel the need to repeat your statement.
Daveslab2022 says... #2
Jace, Architect of Thought ’s -2 is similar to what you’re looking for. Look at games of standard with him in them to see how your effect would change the game. Obviously it’s not the exact same, but it’s also not an ultimate ability, and is used much more frequently
August 21, 2019 3:13 p.m.