Cruise wasn't enough....
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Posted on Nov. 13, 2014, 12:41 p.m. by tooTimid
Hey guys. I was reading an article the other day about the potential of delve cards later in Khans. Unless you've been living under a rock for the last 2 months you know Treasure Cruise has shaken extended formats upside down. Ancestral Recal.... Heard of it? With Fate Reforged on the horizon I'd like to speculate other potentially busted delve cards. Here they are:
The Queen's Disdain
5
Instant
Counter Target Spell
Delve
FT: What are you? Filth. Now act like it. -Sidisi
To broken?? Can standard handle Counterspell? Let me know what you think.
Next up we have:
Toxic Sludge (Name needs work)
XX
Sorcery
All creatures get -X-X until EOT
Delve
FT: "Is that water?"
"No idea"
"Let's find out"
- Last words of Narsha, Abzan Scout
This seems fairly balanced, but the name needs work.
Finally:
Sultai Gravebeast
1 X
Creature
Trample
Delve
~ Enters the Battlefield with X +1/1 Counters
0/0
That about does it! I hope you guys like them. What do you think FrF will hold? Will the eternal formats be shaken up once again?
For the counterspell with delve we already have Logic Knot, which has a very interesting balance to it, much better early but still relevant late if played well.
November 13, 2014 1:48 p.m.
Really?? All of them?? I can see the counter spell being too good, and Toxic Sludge being borderline, but the Gravebeast doesn't seem to bad. It's 6 Mana + Delve for a 4/4 with trample, same as Hooting Mandrills. It's also two colors and a rare if that wasn't clear.
Let's remember that the earliest the Sludge can be cast is turn 3 and even then it's for 2 max. That's the same rate as Drown in Sorrow, but 3 black instead of 2, and no scry. As the game goes on it gets better, but so does the creatures on the board. This also doesn't work as well in a removal heavy deck, as it will kill less creatures. That's my logic. Maybe I'm totally off.
Care to elaborate?
November 13, 2014 1:52 p.m.
As soon as you start messing with "free" mana, you're in dangerous water. The counterspell is clearly too good, because WotC doesn't like 2-mana hard counters. I'd be more behind it if it were 
instead. The other card is a pseudo wrath that can act like a cheaper Damnation. I don't know about you, but I'd pay to kill all creatures. The dude is the most "fragile" but again it's an issue with "free" mana. If you've ever played against a ramp deck and faced a 10/10 Genesis Hydra, come back and tell me that he needs Delve.
November 13, 2014 2:09 p.m.
Make it cost triple blue???? So a strictly worst Cancel???? Delve can't reduce colored mana. The way it is right now makes it not relevant until turns 4-5. This makes it much worse than a typical turn 2 counter.
Cheaper damnation?? That's slightly over doing it... At best it's 3 Black mana for something like -3/3. While that's powerful, it's at a power level similar to Anger of the Gods, not Damnation. 4 Mana kill everything is not equal to Anger of the Gods. Yes the card is powerful, but powerful magic cards exist.
Finally the strength of Genesis Hydra doesn't lie in its P/T, but it the card advantage it creates. I'm less scared by a 10/10 hydra then by a 6/6 and a 4/4 in one card. While this hydra will be big, if standard decks don't have the ability to deal with one creature there's probably something wrong with the deck. It's probably along the power level of something like Polukranos, which has recently fallen out of favor due to how fragile it is.
November 13, 2014 2:57 p.m.
I like the ideas, but...
I don't see a problem with "The Queen's Disdain", but it seems WOTC hates counterspells now so it probably wouldn't happen unless it was UUU5 or UU8 or something similar.
"Toxic Sludge" is pretty borderline. The XX seems like a big deal, but then Empty the Pits gets cast for large numbers. Probably needs and extra 1 or B so it doesn't turn into a 3 mana Wrath.
I can't see the "Sultai Gravebeast" happening unless it loses the trample. Cast for X < 8 or so it would be perfectly reasonable, sure. But stick it in G/B Devotion with Commune with the Gods to fuel Delve and it wouldn't be terribly difficult to cast for x >= 15. At that point you either have an answer in-hand or you just die. It must be chump-blockable.
I think we'll see more cards like Necropolis Fiend - creatures with abilities that delve the graveyard for some effect. Though that isn't exactly Delve because you still have to pay the mana...
That and perhaps some smaller Delve spells. Like we have Murderous Cut now, maybe we'll see something like
Bleed Out - 2B
Delve
Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
Also maybe some cards with multiple clan keywords when color-appropriate, like
Become Somewhat Bigger - 3G
Delve
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Ferocious - If you control a creature with power 4 or greater, that creature gets +2/+2 and Trample until end of turn instead.
November 13, 2014 3:08 p.m.
tooTimid - As I said, WotC doesn't like 2-mana hard counters. If there is a 2-mana hard counter, it has to be conditional in some way, e.g. Negate, Essence Scatter, Disdainful Stroke, etc. The way it's worded now, your counterspell is just too good because it's, essentially, a 2-mana Counterspell. And I can sort-of buy Toxic Sludge being close to an Anger of the Gods, but I see it closer to Mutilate than that. Saying it's like Damnation might have been an overreaction.
And Trample is very relevant on a creature that can be pumped to a large degree like the beast. Look at Rakshasa Deathdealer, it's a 2-mana aggressive creature, and your creature can essentially be a 2-mana 6/6 with trample.
November 13, 2014 3:40 p.m.
The Deathdealer doesn't have trample...
I get what you're saying about the Counterspell, but let's realize they don't like 2 mana counter spells because they are too good on the early turns on the game. On turns 5-7 the difference| between Dissolve and Counterspell are minimal. This card can be cast turn 3 at the earliest, the same time as Dissolve and it would drain your entire yard for future delve plays like treasure cruise.
I can see how the hydra would be very good however. Maybe it should be:
Sultai Gravebeast:
Creature - Gravebeast
~ Enters the Battlefield with +1's counters.
1 Tap: Sacrifice a creature, Draw 1 Card, Gain 2 Life.
Delve
FT: That which takes, must return.
No trample, but a way to get value on stalled boards, and more graveyard interaction. Obviously you cantle attack if you tap, but it has good synergy with Kiora's Follower and Prophet of Kruphix, both of which are in Sultai colors. Better?
November 13, 2014 3:55 p.m.
Sorry, I misread what you said about the Deathdealer. My apologizes.
November 13, 2014 3:57 p.m.
Dalektable says... #11
Yeah, wizards doesn't like two mana hard counters. But they also don't like one mana draw three cards. I don't think the counterspell is busted in any way. I'm not even sure it would be played all too much.
November 15, 2014 9:09 a.m.
Yeah I feel like 5 wouldn't see play, and and 4 would be really good.
JWiley129 says... #2
Ummm....yeah, those are insane. There's a reason Empty the Pits is
November 13, 2014 1:27 p.m.