Eda, Mother of the Lost
Custom Cards forum
Posted on July 10, 2024, 7:54 p.m. by Tsukimi
Ok so here I am again trying to make a custom bant commander that feels balanced. I have made about 2-3 other iteration of this card but I never ended up keeping decks because winning with a custom commander felt.... weird.
But I'm hoping with the introduction of a new mechanic, and inspiration from TheOfficialCreator's excellent post in card creation challenge I might be able to create something that feels balanced and fun. So here's my first take:
Eda, Mother of the Lost
Legendary Creature - Frog Warlock
Creature spells you cast have offspring .
Whenever a creature token enters the battlefield, you gain 1 life.
, tap two other creatures you control: Populate.
3/5
"In finding a home for the wayward children of Bloomburrow, she found one for herself as well."
I'm thinking Eda isn't from Bloomburrow originally but found her Frog form suited her just fine. Have a lot of ideas on the thematic of the card but don't wanna make the thread too long. Also have thoughts on toning it down if too strong. Thoughts?
TheOfficialCreator Thank you so much! This card (and previous iterations) are kind of me role playing a lil as a magic card and I would definitely end up being a Frog witch who adopts all the wayward and "difficult" kids if had the magic to back me up.
I'm glad you like it cause your card was great inspiration.
For mechanics I thought that each creature or each of my creatures entering gaining me life may be too strong - so any creature tokens would have fun interactions with Beast Within, Generous Gift and the like - but switching to only my creature tokens would help power down the card so I will probably make the swap. Thank you!!
July 10, 2024 9:01 p.m.
Crow_Umbra Neither Tsukimi custom cards panned out but i think I might finally have a draft of a balanced card and always love your insight. (Also lmao at the otter explaning)
July 10, 2024 9:27 p.m.
Comparing to Bramble Sovereign, the offspring ability feels balanced.
I'd almost push the life gain ability to triggering on any creature entering, token or nontoken.
The best comparisons for the populate ability are Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage and Cayth, Famed Mechanist. Going off those two, with a side of Rhys the Redeemed, it's probably safe to reduce the cost. Maybe , , Tap another creature.
Which custom tokens Commander is your favorite so far?
July 10, 2024 10:19 p.m.
legendofa this is definitely my favorite iteration thus far. My older versions did have the commander making a 1/1 token copy of target creature as they ETB and seeing an official mechanic that so closely resembles the mechanic I homebrewed is a fun thing to build around.
The cost is intentionally high for Populate because in my experience it can be a very strong ability - I'm guessing especially with Offspring. My goal is to make it on the less powerful side because having a super value custom made commander doesn't feel very good so more restrictions help it feel like an an actual card hopefully. Hence the restrictions on life gain as well.
Bramble Sovereign and Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage etc. are great examples, if the card doesn't feel OP I will think about reducing the cost. Thank you for the feedback!
It's kind of silly at this point considering I have a whole Brenard deck and I had a Sakishima and Sidar deck as well but nothing has quite satisfied the itch.
July 10, 2024 10:32 p.m. Edited.
Crow_Umbra says... #7
Lol I def didn't think I'd be explaining "otter" today.
I agree with TheOfficialCreator's suggestion on wording for the life gain trigger. legendofa also has some great examples
Depending on how you want to balance this, Idk if you'd want to add one of the "this triggers once per turn" limits, especially if the life gain trigger looks at every creature token vs just your own, or looking at all creatures entering like legendofa suggested. Frequency of trigger, what token/nontoken creatures trigger, and whose ownership of the creatures are all dials you could fiddle with.
If you added a trigger limit, maybe that could give you a bit of wiggle room to make either the Populate activation, or Eda's MV 1 mana cheaper.
July 10, 2024 10:35 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #8
Kambal, Profiteering Mayor is another contemporary example in a similar-ish vein to what you're trying to pull off. Meant to link him in my response, but wiped in one of my quick edits trying to keep up with new comments before submission lol.
July 10, 2024 10:37 p.m.
Crow_Umbra I love Mayor Kambal's design space cause it felt new and interesting haha, not surprised to see the influence here. I think TOC's (and your) assessment was on point and it should be limited to my creature tokens only to limit the power.
A trigger per turn limit would help, my thought for now is populate's cost is hopefully prohibitive enough since I don't plan on trying to pull off any kind of Seedborn Muse type shenanigans and I enjoy the flavor of them working together to weave magic.
As always I'll have to build a deck and play with it to see, but since the last three didn't feel great to play I'm trying to get all the feedback before I deckbuild. Yours has been great as always, I'll post a lil mockup in a few
July 10, 2024 10:45 p.m.
Looked around for a while for some temporary art and found something I liked on DA but it's just a placeholder.
July 10, 2024 10:52 p.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #11
Just remember your capitalization and grammar!
July 10, 2024 11:15 p.m.
Haha yea I slapped this together before bed. Formatting wise should it read ", Tap two other creatures you control: Populate."
Also if anyone has other ideas or wants to make another card I am very open to suggestions and creations!
July 11, 2024 7:54 a.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #13
Should be ", , Tap two untapped creatures you control: Populate." See Citanul Stalwart.
July 11, 2024 12:25 p.m.
Ahh tysm TheOfficialCreator I was trying to find an example in scryfall to no avail, appreciate the help!
July 11, 2024 12:39 p.m.
Ok so I am excited about this card and I want it to be balanced off the bat and looking into deck building, I don't think Populate and Offspring should be on the initial card draft cause it seems like a very strong interaction (and I'm just struggling to let go of Populate lol).
I still like the lifegain ability since its very limited in scope. I may just lower the mana cost and have the two abilities, but I'm trying to think if there are any others kind of fun or weird interactions I haven't thought of so open to suggestions!
July 14, 2024 1:46 p.m. Edited.
Crow_Umbra says... #16
I think you should be okay with the Populate & Offspring on the card as is right now. 4 mana, tapping Eda, & tapping 2 other creatures isn't super steep, but restrictive enough to keep it interesting.
I think your Populate also curves nicely as a play the turn after Eda drops. With how mana intensive Offspring can get, you'll probably be initially limited to either doing Offspring or Populating off Eda, until you drop something like Jaheira, Friend of the Forest.
I could see Eda also have an interesting Lifegain variant with stuff like Myriad (Hammers of Moradin) to get bang for your buck on token production & Lifegain. Offspring your Myriad folks so their Offspring have Myriad, & really roll in life gain.
July 14, 2024 1:55 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #17
Another quick thought on the "Mother of the Wayward" flavor. If you wanted to change up the Life gain or Offspring aspect, maybe instead Eda makes temporary copies of other players' stuff, like Faerie Artisans? Maybe incorporate a timing/payment restriction kinda like Satya, Aetherflux Genius, minus the Energy, to determine if her wayward children stick around or not.
Idk, just trying to think of other angles & play space that could fit the flavor of Eda.
July 14, 2024 2:04 p.m.
Crow_Umbra This is the fun of token copy shenanigans! So many cards that get fun with lifegain, Ocelot Pride, Crested Sunmare, or even things like Attended Healer with Bennie Bracks, Zoologist or Wolverine Riders, Tendershoot Dryad etc. if your goal is to go real wide. And that's before we talk about other fun Myriad, Embalm, or copy cards.
I am realizing I need to wait to the official rules release but if I am reading this right then I should be able to cast clone cards with offspring, allowing to me to be really versatile in my copy token targets. This has always been my favorite part of the deck, it always feels new to play because its versatile and will always be different based on what friends are at the table are running.
I do like the populate I am just hoping it doesn't seem too OP or overly customized to the table so I figured before I deep dive deck building I'd see if anyone else had any ideas (:
-- Seeing your second comment Faerie Artisans are the OG powerhouse of the populate deck because they stick around when they're made with populate! I love the card and ability, but it is definitely one my table has learned to groan at on sight so if my commander had a similar ability I think I'd get some sideye haha.
I definitely like the timing/restriction idea for either ability. I kind of saw populate as the kids sticking around and helping her around the house/with the younger kids. Any thoughts on restrictions for offspring? Only on my turn seems kind of uninspired but it was my first thought
July 14, 2024 2:23 p.m. Edited.
I also really enjoyed how flavorful TheOfficialCreator's initial card felt with the ward X ability where X is the number of creature tokens I have, but judging by how many tokens I can make and how offspring can also essentially double ETB effects, I am trying to start with a draft that is really limited in power.
July 14, 2024 2:32 p.m.
I'm going to stand by what I said earlier and say this doesn't need any more restrictions. I get you don't want to roll up with an overpowered custom Commander, that's a bad look, but I think it's still slightly overtuned.
Eda has a lot of great self-synergy. Working through a sequence, let's say you cast Experimental Aviator to get some tokens, and pay the for offspring. From there, you gain 5 life from five tokens entering. You then populate the Aviator offspring token to get another Aviator and its tokens, gaining another 3 life.
Net result at what I see is the most efficient possible token generation rate (5 mana for a creature + two tokens), you spend eleven total mana to gain 8 life and create nine creatures. I can't find a direct comparison quickly, but this passes my personal feel test.
At the lower end, let's start with Memnite. Pay for offspring, you get two creatures for two mana. Populate the token, and the net result for least mana spent is for gaining 2 life and three creatures. Not super efficient.
I'm choosing examples that keep the process simple. If you choose, like, Gruff Triplets + Phyrexian Altar, you can completely change the math. But I think these examples illustrate my thought, that even with the best possible single-card outcome, you seem to be in pretty fair territory.
July 14, 2024 3:06 p.m.
Intruder Alarm might be the best way to break Eda at this point, but that card can go infinite with a sandwich.
July 14, 2024 3:08 p.m.
legendofa Thank you so much, these are the math type limits I'm trying to explore before I jump into deckbuilding - and you said it perfectly, I am worried it feels overtuned or too synergistic. Following your logic if I cast something like Hornet Queen and pay the offspring cost, I get 10 creatures for 9 mana and gain 8 life, then to populate I would have to pay 4 to gain 4 life and make 5 tokens, so having the math to follow this feels... kinda of fair?
July 14, 2024 3:21 p.m. Edited.
Tsukimi Yeah, I think that's okay. Hornet Queen's kind of a weird card anyway, and I think even with that many tokens, the mana costs are enough of a control.
July 14, 2024 3:47 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #24
I love everyone's input and that we're all on similar trains of thought with where Eda is currently at.
I can see where you're coming from with your flavor intention for Eda, Tsukimi; I think I interpreted the "wayward" aspect of her name to be more like she takes in other players' "kids", and less about making your own. To make play patterns for everyone at the table kind interesting, I could see where she is like Faerie Artisans, but you may pay an Offspring type cost whenever someone else's creature enters. Less groan-y than Faerie Artisan to an extent, but everyone at the table will second guess if you're holding up mana to make a copy, or to play some other instant speed interaction.
Regardless, I think agree that your current design doesn't need anymore restrictions, and is great as is.
July 14, 2024 4:11 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #25
How dare none of you mention the OG Avenger of Zendikar, hmmph
July 14, 2024 11:41 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #26
Sakashima of a Thousand Faces is definitely a must-have for this deck, honestly. That would open up so many more possibilities of jank.
July 14, 2024 11:45 p.m.
TypicalTimmy No problem. How many tokens will Avenger of Zendikar create the next time you cast it?
But yeah, those would be great cards for this deck. I think the best way to break Eda is to go all in on making as many tokens as possible, with a side of Soul Sisters. I already mentioned Intruder Alarm, so that plus Eda plus four mana from creatures plus another two creatures can go infinite. Eda can supply a lot of that by spamming Bloom Tenders or whatever, but it seems like the cards that would break Eda the most are combo cards that are already half-broken themselves.
July 14, 2024 11:55 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #28
From having gotten a few games in with an adjacent token/copy strat with Satya, Aetherflux Genius and clones like Sakashima & Spark Double, can confirm that Souls Sister stuff like Guide of Souls quickly gets out of hand.
July 15, 2024 12:02 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #29
legendofa, let's assume you can hardcast Avenger for 7 mana using only lands (In other words you've ramped into 7 lands on the battlefield), and you pay the additional for Offspring (Perhaps paying for it with a Sol Ring)
Both Avengers enter the battlefield together, both see 7 lands, so both create 7x 0/1 plant tokens for a total of 14 plants plus the Avenger token himself. That would yield 15 total life from 1 card investing 9 total mana into it, putting 1x 5/5, 1x 1/1 and 14x 0/1 creatures into play.
Now lets assume you play a land for turn. And let's assume it isn't even a fetchland, but like just an Island. That'll trigger both Avengers, putting a total of 2x +1/+1 counters on all 14x plants, giving your boardstate a total upgrade of 1x 5/5, 1x 1/1, and now 14x 2/3s
Then, if you Populate on your next turn and copy Avenger, you'll get another 8x 0/1s because of the Island you played last turn. Play your land for this turn and now you have 1x 5/5, 1x 1/1 now all three Avengers see your land drop. That means your 14x 2/3s each get 3x +1/+1 counters making them all 5/6s and your new 8x 0/1s become 3/4s
Not to mention the 9 life you just gained from the Avenger token thanks to Populate plus the 8x plant tokens (Before this turn's land drop, taking into account last turn's Island as your 8th land)
So you've spent 13 mana over the course of two turns and gained:
24 life, 1x 5/5, 1x 1/1, 14x 5/6s and 8x 3/4s
Yeah, I'd say that's pretty good value?
July 15, 2024 12:07 a.m. Edited.
TypicalTimmy says... #30
- 24 life, 1x 5/5, TWO 1/1s, 14x 5/6s and 8x 3/4s
I forgot, you would now have two Avenger of Zendikar tokens that are both 1/1s, because you Populated the Offspring.
July 15, 2024 12:14 a.m.
TypicalTimmy If you can support and protect the AoZ investment, you absolutely deserve that board. But again, I think that's more of a testament to AoZ's raw power than to Eda's brokenness. You're absolutely right that Eda can be a catalyst to ridiculousness, but she need something else to provide the power. She's not broken herself, she makes good things great and great things broken.
July 15, 2024 12:44 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #32
That's how I play Magic, though. I look at cards as investments.
The way I construct a deck, each card should be able to stand on its own and extrapolate across the board with each new addition.
That's the philosophy between "combo" and "synergy". For example, Impact Tremors, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and Warstorm Surge may all stand on their own but extrapolate the pain when working in synergy with one another.
Then you extrapolate further with cards such as Scourge of Valkas, Dragon Tempest, Terror of the Peaks and Utvara Hellkite and suddenly you are the biggest threat at the table.
Run this with Lathliss, Dragon Queen and all of a sudden every single card becomes a stand-alone threat, all radically compounding the pain on top of one-another.
The reason I build decks like this is because if a single spell is countered, or I endure a boardwipe, that is okay because the very next spell I cast replaces what I've just lost.
I've actually dealt enough damage with boardstates like this to take down all three opponents at once from targeted and indirect damage, no to mention combat damage when you apply Fervor, Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded and Dragon Tempest.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Just explaining my own personal deck-building process and how I play.
July 15, 2024 12:54 a.m.
All good. It's a great philosophy for building resilient, self-reinforcing decks, and Eda definitely deserves that treatment. Right now, though, I'm looking more at the card in a vacuum. Less of a "how well can I exploit and optimize this card" ceiling and more of a "how does this card compare to others with a similar function" floor.
Eda can be a huge value engine when surrounded by higher-end cards, no question. But right now it feels to me like the floor's a little bit too low. It feels too much like the card's power is a little too reliant on the cards around it. When I was comparing it to Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage and trying it alongside Experimental Aviator, I was comparing it to what appear to be the baseline costs and abilities for token generation, seeing how quickly it could do its thing for what cost without looking too much at power and toughness. The Aviator in my example could be replaced by Geist-Honored Monk, or Head of the Homestead, or Trostani Discordant, or any other creature that brings two tokens for five mana with no requirements or conditions. That seems to be the most efficient typical rate for token generation, which is what Eda wants to do. The test could be scaled up with Cloudgoat Ranger, or Captain of the Watch, or Avenger of Zendikar. But at that point, we're looking at specific card interactions, not minimum efficiency level, since there are very few cards that produce tokens at that rate. (And reading back, I could have made that clearer.)
So that's where I coming from right now. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong to look at the card in the context of a full deck. I was also throwing around stuff like Intruder Alarm and Gruff Triplets. I just think it could use a little more tweaking before it gets fully to that point.
July 15, 2024 3:36 a.m.
Tysm everyone, I am really loving this discussion and how thoughtful y'all are! Since the intent is to play it in my playgroup, I figured I would mention as a table we avoid infinite combos. People can run them if they want, but none of us really do - so I would most likely avoid Intruder Alarm in this deck like I do in most others.
What I have experienced playing many iterations of this Copy Token archetype (and that was starting way back when we only had Populate lol) the deck will rely pretty heavily on the commander providing Offspring to be able to create tokens, and without protection she will be a lightning rod for removal. legendofa is right on the money, I think the chance of getting to bigger cards will require having protection available for Eda first, meaning even with ramp I am unlikely to cast anything like Avenger of Zendikar until I have protection or can do something with the tokens aside from just gaining life. Often, I will have to rely on Eda as my commander and she costs 5 and has no protection so I'm guessing I'll have to focus more on protecting her and smaller pieces than ramping into these giant threats.
I really appreciate all the comments from both of you! This has been a huge help to think - how can I break this card? How often am I going to be able to do something like that?
More often Im guessing I will be lucky to pull off an Offspring cost on a 5 mana card and that's still a heavy investment at 7 mana. Usually I find the one round I need to start populating or going off is the round someone board wipes or nukes my commander, and then recasting her for 7 before paying another Offspring cost seem like a fairly prohibitive mana value. Ideally, I am wondering if she should cost one less and maybe the Populate should cost more or something- but I'm at a sweet spot with the fairness of this card as Crow and others have agreed. So I'm going to keep Eda as is for the first playtest.
I know I say thank you a lot but this is like my 4th iteration of a homebrew bant copy token commander and this is the first time I feel like I am onto something that isn't going to feel... bad to play. If anyone has any specific card suggestions or anything like that I am all ears since I'm going to start deckbuilding today!
July 15, 2024 12:01 p.m.
Lol seeing all these wicked strong birds coming out from the set I'm almost like. . . Oh did I say frog?? xD
July 15, 2024 3:39 p.m.
Building the deck has been fun if not a bit overwhelming with the sheer amount of options but I'm realizing I'll have to wait for the rules announcement to see how X spells, Kicker, and Mutate all work with Offspring. If they work the way I hope, there are some really fun interactions I'll be able to play with.
July 16, 2024 10:37 a.m.
So originally I wanted to do a go wide and buff theme with cards like Angel of Invention, Thunderfoot Baloth, Harmonious Archon, so on and so forth but then it started to feel a little too similar to my Brenard deck so I swapped it up to be more about making token copies of great creatures like Vaultborn Tyrant, Cloudblazer, Aether Channeler, Bronzebeak Foragers, and the like. After building the entire deck around this idea (because it is the sole of what I want the custom commander to facilitate) I realized this.... doesn't work great with Eda's lifegain that wants things that make extra bodies when they enter so... It feels a bit of a mess but I can't look at it any longer lol. I'm thinking I might need to switch up Eda's wording or go back to the drawing board but I may be overthinking it.
July 19, 2024 2:48 p.m.
So I guess I am thinking I can:
-
Edit Eda to cost less mana, remove the populate ability, and maybe upgrade the lifegain ability. This would make casting single copies easier and more rewarding while removing the ability for the commander to copy tokens outside of paying Offspring.
-
Just try and play the deck and commander as is even though they feel like they're at odds with each other
-
Go back to the drawing board...
Cast your votes now!
July 19, 2024 2:57 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #39
I'd say try 2 for at least a couple irl games first to get a feel for it, then try 1 for a few more. If nothing feels good, time to hit option 3 lol
TheOfficialCreator says... #2
Oh, YESS!!!! Frogs are my favorite Bloomburrow tribe so I love it, and I like the changes you've made.
One thing I might suggest is to change the second ability to "whenever a creature token enters the battlefield under your control", but that's a nitpick and personal preference anyway.
Also I really like the flavor of a frog mother lol.
July 10, 2024 8:49 p.m.