Naming a strange mechanic
Custom Cards forum
Posted on Aug. 14, 2015, 2:38 a.m. by MagicalHacker
The mechanic (which I'll call kudos until I get a real name) does this:
Kudos (Whenever a player activates an ability of this permanent, each other player copies that ability and may choose new targets for that ability.)
Some examples:
Follower of Dezgazhu 
Creature - Rhino Cleric
Kudos
: Target player gains 1 life.
1/2
Sparkling Gemstone 
Artifact
Kudos
: Draw up to X cards, where X is the number of charge counters on ~.
: You may put a charge counter on ~.
Sickly Glare 
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant nonwhite creature
Kudos
: Enchanted creature's controller sacrifices it unless he or she pays 3 life.
Fountain of Celebration 
Enchantment
: ~ deals 1 damage to target creature you control and 1 damage to target creature you don't control.
Geyaso, Goodwill Garden
Legendary Land
Kudos
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add 
to your mana pool.
: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.
Merendi Law 
Legendary Enchantment
All nonland permanents have Kudos.
Illusionary Inspiration
Instant
Target creature gains Kudos until end of turn.
Draw a card.
Whispers of Kal'dul
Creature - Shade
: Put a Whisper counter on target creature. It has Kudos as long as that counter is on it.
2/1
Dragon Blade
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gains Kudos and ": ~ gets +1/+0 until end of turn."
Equip
Nature's Humor
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant permanent
Enchanted permanent has Kudos.
: Return ~ to its owner's hand.
Dezgazhu Kal'dul of Merendi
Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter Wizard
: Put a Kudos counter on target permanent.
~ has all activated abilities of all permanents with Kudos counters on them.
Each permanent with a Kudos counter on it has Kudos.
3/3
Thoughts?
MagicalHacker says... #3
That's part of the depth of the design as it's not limited to just abilities that target or to abilities that don't target. Yes it scales up in multiplayer, but that doesn't really matter... because it's multiplayer, which means the balance fixes itself out. That's why I'd say it's not really a problem but a feature of the design.
August 14, 2015 3:09 a.m.
RoarMaster says... #4
Not sure the reasoning behind "its multi player, it balances itself out."
Also, you have kudos on spells, kudo counters, and strait up 'this permanent has kudos'. Each of these should be separated into different abilities, or else combined into one that will work easily within the rules because right now its a bit all over the place. Needs some streamlining.
August 14, 2015 4:42 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #5
I like the concept, and I agree with Boza. Even outside of multiplayer Dragon Blade is giving +2/+0 for .
Additionally, I'm pretty sure Geyaso, Goodwill Garden simply doesn't function. You tap it for mana, get mana, the Kudos trigger triggers, is put on the stack, and no longer has an ability to copy because mana abilities don't use the stack.
I really feel like the only option to keep this tame is to either make the copying optional, or not print cards that give Kudos to things, at least not without paying a hefty price.
August 14, 2015 6:12 a.m.
I think you overestimate the depth of this mechanic. It seems pretty shallow because you can't put overbearing effects on a permanent with Kudos. For example, Mageta the Lion's activated ability with Kudos is kindof pointless. But Azure Mage's would essentially draw you tons of cards. This will either force you to cost Kudos abilities into oblivion, or nerf the card entirely.
August 14, 2015 9:18 a.m. Edited.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #7
With the ability as currently worded, cards like Azure Mage would not draw you any more than normal. Adding Kudos to Azure Mage would cause activating it to draw everybody else a card as well.
August 14, 2015 11:11 a.m.
Are you looking for thoughts on the viability of the mechanic itself, or for naming suggestions? I thought it was the latter from the thread title, so here you go:
Communion
Harmony
Fellowship
Rapport
August 14, 2015 11:23 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #9
RoarMaster, if a particular player has a permanent that is better because of the fact that it is multiple players, the players themselves act as the balancing factors since they can and will focus on the player exerting the most advantage.
Also, not sure what you mean about streamlining. What I infer is that you would rather this ability have less uses?
Tyrant-Thanatos, but it's not Firebreathing; it costs 6 mana just to put it onto a creature...
You are absolutely right about Geyaso, I should have thought that one out more...
My issue with making the copying optional is that you then further limit what the design can do and it is limiting as it is. If that change were implemented, this design would only be a drawback, and when was the last time people got excited about a mechanic that's a drawback?
JWiley129, give me an example of an overbearing effect, and I guarantee there is a cost that will make it balanced with Kudos :)
Are there abilities that are useless with Kudos? Oh absolutely. In fact, there's no guarantee that a player will have many activated abilities in their deck, but the depth of the mechanic stems from the fact that it does different things depending on the permanent it's on.
August 14, 2015 11:29 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #10
alecm, yes it about naming the mechanic, I almost forgot myself! xD
Those names fit the flavor for some of the instances, but I can't say that they describe what is being done by Whispers of Kal'dul, for example.
I'm looking for a word that seems to lend itself to either the magic itself isn't sealed in tight and leaks out, or to it multiplying because of the presence of others.
Weird, I know, but that's the only two ideas that the mechanic makes me think of...
August 14, 2015 11:32 a.m.
Is that a challenge? "Target player reveals their hand, you choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. You lose 2 life. ~ cannot target its owner."; "Deal X damage to target player who does not control ~." ; "~ gets +3/+3 and gains trample until end of turn."
Also there can't be a cost for every mechanic to make it balanced. Look at Storm and Dredge as the prime examples there. That is one of the biggest Magic design fallacies.
August 14, 2015 11:33 a.m.
Hm, maybe Radiate, Propagate or Manifold? Or maybe Watershed, Overflow or Heighten? I'm not sure some of those aren't already card names lol
August 14, 2015 11:42 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #13
: 1.
: 2.
: 3.
While I think that wording it so that it can't be used against you is the reason it can be considered overbearing, I think that these costs would be definitely in the realm of appropriate power levels, if not under-powered.
As for Storm and Dredge, I am confident that they would not be broken if they costed more mana to use their abilities. I would instead argue that balancing them to prevent them from creating oppressive combo decks would also prevent them from being used in less than competitive decks.
August 14, 2015 11:53 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #14
alecm, I like Manifold a lot! And it's not already used, so that's good too!
August 14, 2015 11:55 a.m.
But now you've costed them out of being both 1.) Fun and 2.) Playable. Mechanics need to be able to be costed appropriately, costed for them to be fun, and have decent effects. The problem with Storm and Dredge is that regardless of cost they are either 1.) Busted (Grapeshot, Tendrils of Agony, or Golgari Grave-Troll) or 2.) Unplayable (Ground Rift, Wing Shards, Nightmare Void, or Hunting Pack). Your mechanic is toeing the same line.
August 14, 2015 12:05 p.m.
Kinda reminds me of Parley from the elf whose name escapes me...
August 14, 2015 12:24 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #17
JWiley129, I've got an idea, how about we take of the restrictions that are only meant to prevent Kudos from working as it could? :) As for the last ability, I think it could be reduced to be more playable:
: Target player reveals their hand, you choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. You lose 2 life.
: Deal X damage to target player.
: ~ gets +1/+1 and gains trample until end of turn.
There. Playable, fun, and moderately balanced. As for your examples, it's no surprise that the two storm cards are the two cards that can change an opponent's life total. I'd argue that dredge should have cost mana to do as well.
Araganor, the issue I have with Parley is that it's soooo specific. There's not much room to really mess around with the design :)
August 14, 2015 12:57 p.m.
EridanWwins says... #18
Also Geyaso just makes infinite mana on its own, so that should probably be fixed...
August 14, 2015 1:45 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #19
I agree the mechanic may need some work, but I like the fundamental idea. But to you answer your question, I'd suggest "Emanate."
August 14, 2015 2:12 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #20
If multiplayer balanced itself out due to player focus, then there would be no ban list for EDC/Commander.
Not all abilities will scale well in a multiplayer environment. Good cards will become broken cards. Cards that are balanced will become unbalanced. This not only decreases design space, but makes card design itself that much more difficult and hard to balance. Look at Sylvan Primordial as an example, banned because it scaled too well in a multiplayer setting.
And why have whisper counters give kudos as well as kudos counters giving kudos.
August 14, 2015 2:29 p.m.
I still don't think you understand that your mechanic isn't really that useful. Sure, it works within the rules of the game, but that doesn't mean you should make it a mechanic.
August 14, 2015 2:38 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #22
RoarMaster, I was being lazy really, but I could make them both whisper counters :)
JWiley129, I disagree and think that this would be one of the most diverse and interactive mechanic. It's even borderline chaos-themed because of how much it can interact with permanents in the game.
August 14, 2015 8:30 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #23
My first point still stands.
As for a name, Id go with "Merry Go Round".
August 14, 2015 9:45 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #24
RoarMaster that banlist is the list of cards that are so broken that even the multiplayer environment can't balance them out. Sometimes it's a scaling issue, like with Sylvan Primordial. Bramblecrush + Rampant Growth was a bit overkill in my opinion, but card advantage in 1v1 scales to huge advantage in multiplayer. Sometimes bans are due to the slower nature of multiplayer (for example, Balance and Biorhythm). The rest are mostly either format-specific (Karakas & Erayo, Soratami Ascendant) or too easy to combo with (Panoptic Mirror & Emrakul, the Aeons Torn).
I'd argue that most cards tend to lose power moving into multiplayer, with a handful actually gaining power (mostly when built to scale for each opponent). In this case, a multiplayer-designed card should be balanced for 3 opponents, and with that in mind, wouldn't you say paying five mana to give something super-firebreathing be balanced? If not, I can always increase the cmc or the equip cost or the firebreathing cost or some combination of them, but that's just one design.
I'm liking formayor's suggestion of Emanate the most currently :)
August 15, 2015 10:52 a.m.
RoarMaster says... #25
Im just saying when you design cards that have a very large amount of power variability its hard to balance them. Take your super firebreathing for example: As it stands its a useless peice of equipment if you are playing 1v1, far overcosted, yet on a four player game you have swung for the kill on turn 4 if you cast a birds of paradise turn 1. Upping its cost simply makes it less playable than it already is in 1v1. Its also fairly well accepted that circumstantial cards are generally not very good, and this is a prime example of how some cards are only good in some situations and suck everywhere else, in this case they are bad everywhere but multiplayer.
Boza says... #2
I like the Carebear mechanic. I do not how different it is from "any player may activate the ability" from the good old days.
However, most of the cards you have do not have abilities that target, so I do not think they work as intended. For an ability that is meant to work in multiplayer, most of these do not make sense.
The problems is other players get to copy the ability for free. For example:
"Dragon Blade
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gains Kudos and ": ~ gets +1/+0 until end of turn."
Equip
"
After equipping, every time you activate the firebreathing, you will get extra firebreathing activations for free for each other player. With 4 players in the game and
, you get +4/+0, which is all kinds of broken. Making the copying non-mandatory will fix this.
Most of the cards have this problem.
August 14, 2015 2:57 a.m.