New EDH mechanic - Treachery
Custom Cards forum
Posted on March 2, 2022, 4:44 p.m. by TypicalTimmy
So by design you can't have a Swamp or tap Arcane Signet for , so that needs to be ironed out.
Thoughts?
Grubbernaut says... #3
In theory, I like the idea, but feel it would be extraordinarily difficult to execute well.
March 2, 2022 5:04 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #4
Seems unnecessarily confusing. Color identity is already a point of much befuddlement and discord--no need to add to that confusion and debate, imo.
Just imagine the conversation with a new player:
Player 1: "So you can only run cards in your commander's color identity, which is different from its color and is determined by all the color pips found on the card. But sometimes you'll see colors on a card that don't actually matter, like for the Extort mechanic. Also, even though basic lands are colorless and don't have any color pips on them, they actually do have color pips, they're just hidden, so you can only play the ones in your commander's color identity. Also, even though Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh doesn't have any color pips on it, there's a little red bubble on the side here which means it's red in identity."
Player 2: "...?"
Player 1: "Yeah also never mind all that for these 4 commanders, but only for specific cards."
Player 2: "I think I'm gonna stick to Modern..."
March 2, 2022 5:06 p.m.
I like the concept, but I don't think it's a good fit for commander. Like Omniscience said, color identity is already a mess as is. There's also this element of commander being less and less built around unique color identities and more around just the best cards with things like this. Overall, not a fan of the idea for EDH.
However, the pessimistic answer aside, I think this could be an awesome standard mechanic with a few tweaks. Something like,
"Treachery - as long as ~ is on the field, you may spend mana to cast any spells with symbols in their mana cost."
March 2, 2022 5:33 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #6
But how is that any different from Partner, Partners With, "Can be you Commander", MDFCs, and Companions?
And if someone asks about a spell such as Dreadbore, well... Does it say red? ;)
March 2, 2022 5:34 p.m. Edited.
This particular card would allow 29 additional cards, as of right now. The "Destroy target creature." ones generally have very high mana costs for their effects, and Decree of Pain, Blood on the Snow, and maybe Deadly Tempest look like they would be the most useful board wipes to add, to my eyes.
I think this could work as a house-ruled custom commander; it doesn't seem to be too overpowered. I'm not quite sure how it would work with Liturgy of Blood, though, and as others have mentioned, it does add another wrinkle to color identity rules. The difference between this card and Partner, ~ can be your commander, etc. is that while they might mess with other rules, they don't mess with color identity.
As long as everyone understands the restrictions on what can be added, this seems fair.
March 2, 2022 6:09 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #8
JANKYARD_DOG, I changed the name of the ability and made a card for it.
March 2, 2022 11:03 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #9
So, my understanding is that color identity refers to mana symbols present anywhere on a card. This is why a Commander such as Alesha, Who Smiles at Death is Mardu and not mono-red, because she has on the card, even if it is within her text box. Similarly, this is why Jorn, God of Winter Flip is actually Sultai, because Kaldring, the Rimestaff is Dimir and still part of the MDFC card.
The reason Extort is unique is because it is within the reminder text, not an activation cost or benefit or anything. Because it is in rules clarification, it was agreed upon that Extort can bend the rules of color identity, slightly.
Now, going on topic of this design, if there is no present, then he isn't Black. He would be mono-white and thus only viable as a mono-white Commander, with rules stipulating that you may include extra cards.
Not unlike how the rules of Relentless Rats work, shifting the singleton into any number. Similarly, how the rules of Grist, the Hunger Tide work to allow him to be your Commander because he is a creature outside of the Battlefield - E.G. your Command Zone.
I suspect that if WOTC printed 5 mono-color Treachery cards, one for each primary color, there'd be a ton of backlash and questioning and then a slurry of videos on Youtube would be released and everyone would suddenly accept it for what it is. Then you'd have the community split in twain, half saying it's mechanically fine and a non-issue and the other half saying how broken and dumb it is and why not just make this guy Orzhov and call it what it is.
At the end of the day, people will always find a reason to argue.
I was just looking for potential, untapped design space. That's all.
March 3, 2022 1:13 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #10
Extort is in no way a bend of the color identity rules. The is not actually a pip on the card (reminder text is practically akin to flavor text), so therefore it doesn't affect identity.
But you can see, just from that one example, how complicated it is!
I just think it's dangerous space to work in. There's not much complexity to the "amount of copies you can play in a deck" rule--usually four, sometimes, 1, occasionally 5 or above--and I'm honestly against planeswalkers as commanders entirely. But even so, it's a pretty simple idea, right? Any legendary creature can be your commander, and some planeswalkers.
Color identity has so much complexity to it that it really doesn't need any more added confusion, at least as far as I see it. The most recent update to the rules of color identity were in the realm of simplification: allowing players to add mana outside that of their commanders' identities.
March 3, 2022 1:41 a.m.
TypicalTimmy Looking for potential design space is good. It shows creativity and a willingness to experiment. Sometimes, though, design space goes unused for a reason. It just doesn't work as intended, or it's too confusing, or it's too narrow.
Like I said, I think this card is good as a house-ruled commander. Unfortunately, this game runs on Magic-ese, not natural language, and while this card is completely coherent and sensible in natural language, it opens up a few pitholes in Magic-ese.
Imagine a card that costs and has the text This card is black. sitting next to a card with a cost of with the text This card is white. Which of these card would be allowed, assuming they both have the required text? For that matter, which would be allowed in a usual mono- deck, if either? This (extreme) example is simply an extension of devoid, influenced by the Treachery mechanic.
I think the Treachery mechanic might be able to work. It would have to have a slew of preemptive rulings, and be monitored very closely for potential breakage. Not enough restriction, and you get Ikoria Companion 2: Still Breakin' the Game. Too much restriction, and it becomes flavor text. Another important thought is that it can't be future-proofed; every black sorcery with the passcode would instantly be evaluated against this card, potentially hobbling a future mechanic or concept.
It's not really any more complicated than Mutate, but it further messes with color identity and could have potential long-term consequences. I would absolutely houserule it as acceptable for casual/personal use, though.
March 3, 2022 1:45 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #12
The most recent update to the rules of color identity were in the realm of simplification: allowing players to add mana outside that of their commanders' identities.?
What does this mean? Because if I have a Dimir Commander, Arcane Signet can't add . But if you are able to add mana outside of that Dimir identity, then you should be able to add white, or green or red.
Do you have an article or something I can read, please? I can just Google it, sure, but I'd rather read whatever article you happen to find credible so we are both on the same page here. Because this is the first time I've heard this.
March 3, 2022 1:47 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #13
Um. I could find an article, but this is what I'm going off is a section from the OGW Comprehensive Rules update:
Mana of any color can be added to your mana pool in Commander. Previously, mana not in your commander's color identity was converted to colorless mana.
March 3, 2022 1:55 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #14
Man... my grammar is suffering from my lack of sleep. Sorry for all that, I swear I usually know how to english
March 3, 2022 2:02 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #15
Omniscience_is_life, ooooh thanks man! That's really interesting. Makes Sen Triplets much easier to run now! I tried to build them like... four times? But I kept running into not enough sources to produce enough of the off-colors. Sweet.
March 3, 2022 2:02 a.m.
How's that, eh? Similar to yours in a way. That's my take on a treachery card.
Lanzo493 says... #2
I like it. Sounds fun and thematic.
March 2, 2022 4:54 p.m.