Ajani or Garruk?
Deck Help forum
Posted on Dec. 4, 2012, 11:33 p.m. by Champloo
Hey guys, last night I was toying around with Ajani, Caller of the Pride and one of my friends suggested playing with Garruk, Primal Hunter instead. I see them both working well, especially with Champion of Lambholt only thing is with Ajani, Caller of the Pride is sometimes, there isn't really a viable target to put the counters on, with Garruk, Primal Hunter i'd at least get a 3/3 in the mix while still putting a counter of Champion of Lambholt instead of just a +1/+1 counter. But Garruk, Primal Hunter is slower, with 1 less power, and triple commitment. Any thoughts guys? Thanks in advance :D
I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're casually dismissing drawing 9 cards in a Green deck for 5 mana.
Harmonize was a massive Tier-1 spell. It drew you 3 cards for 4.
December 5, 2012 1:28 a.m.
Garruk is a lot better in my opinion. Having the option to draw cards late game is really nice, especially in G/W when there are limited cards for card draw. Or, just adding 3/3 beasts is never a bad thing. Ajani is only helpful if you can keep your creatures on the field for certain until you get to his ultimate. Garruk's ultimate isn't that bad... dropping at least 5 6/6 worms creates a large challenge for your opponent.
December 5, 2012 1:56 a.m.
I certainly wasn't trying to dismiss his draw power. In my opinion, though, that's his chief and most powerful use. His other abilities strike me as less-than-ideal for anything other than a mono-green mana ramp. Ajani, on the other hand, can literally gain one point of loyalty per turn by doing absolutely nothing.
Specifically with regard to Champion of Lambholt , Ajani still strikes me as the better option, as he can buff one's Champion every turn until going ultimate--whereupon, if your life total is even just 10 at that point, Champion becomes a 15/15, and you probably just won the game (even assuming you were completely unable to drop any other creatures in the interim).
On the other hand, while Garruk's draw power is essentially unparalleled in green, if you want to use him with the Champion, you put yourself in the bind of taking an additional turn to hit ultimate, being less practicably able to run an additional color(s), and being dependent on having a moderately heavy land base to get Champion to the exact same position (specifically, 9 lands by the time Garruk goes off).
December 5, 2012 11:08 a.m.
I don't understand.
You say that Garruk, Primal Hunter isn't too great because his +1 and -6 abilities do nothing but give you a 3/3 blocker/beatstick or a board of 6/6 win-conditions, but then argue that Ajani, Caller of the Pride is better because his +1 has the chance to only have the effect of increasing Loyalty.
Clearly, you undervalue the power of getting a free 3/3 creature each turn. Against Control, Garruk, Primal Hunter is one of the best cards you can cast. If he resolves, your opponent's card-advantage is suddenly neutralized and you get a free, uncounterable 3/3 body each turn.
December 5, 2012 12:42 p.m.
I apologize if I gave that impression. May I have an opportunity to clarify?
Garruk is excellent in a mono-green, mana ramp creature strategy, especially in that that particular build emphasizes having land in plethora. Under those conditions, yes, you have enough green to play a 3/3 beater every turn and go ultimate with potentially 10+ 6/6 beaters by turn 10. You also have the potential to draw a new grip on turn five and have options out the window.
However, my principal complaint against Garruk was and is that he strikes me as less-than-tailored for 2-3 colored decks. By turn 5, the ideal drop, if you are running more than just green, you will quite possibly be sitting on Garruk in hand, trying to get 1-2 more green mana sources into play, and then have to bump him five times so he can go off with likely fewer 6/6's (due to de-emphasis of ramp), and therefore fewer counters on Champion of Lambholt .
On the other hand, Ajani requires only 2 white sources for color investment, and can potentially go off by turn seven. Considering that the Selesnya cards in the current meta allow for quite substantial life gain, by turn 7, it is viable to have upwards of 10-15 2/2 cats enter the field, thus giving Champion the larger buff faster.
Objectively, is Garruk a good card? Absolutely! I would run him in a heartbeat--in mono-green or EDH. But given the very particular circumstances of presumably a Selesnya-based win condition involving Champion of Lambholt , I personally find, subjectively, that Ajani is a better fit. This may, in fact, mean that I undervalue the power of free creatures. It also may mean that I approach the problem from a standpoint of optimization, in which case, Ajani seems to me to optimize Champion better, as it grants a faster ultimate for lower color investment and an ultimately larger buff to the key card of the deck. Of course, short of seeing a deck list, a true discernment of synergy is impossible.
Finally, regarding Ajani's ability to buff loyalty for nothing: It's actually quite powerful, at least in my mind, in that if it were disadvantageous to put a +1/+1 counter on anything, he can still accrue loyalty at a steady rate without otherwise impacting the board state. There are circumstances where more creatures are not better, and Garruk forces you to play into that if you wish him to become more powerful.
December 5, 2012 7:29 p.m.
mikewill98 says... #8
Well, i know this may not be something youre interested in, but if you wanted to, if this is for serious play or with friends for that matter, put 1 of them in your sideboard and the other in your deck. Like zandl said, if youre playing a control deck which is generally slower, play Garruk, Primal Hunter or if youre against a faster red deck that has flying creatures, you might want to go with Ajani, Caller of the Pride as he is faster and can help you out against those fast unblockable flying creatures.
December 5, 2012 7:29 p.m.
Silly me. There was a decklist link in the original post. >.< Having looked it over, I would still lean Ajani, but Garruk seems more viable now than in a vacuum.
December 5, 2012 7:33 p.m.
Considering taking out Gather the Townsfolk and Call of the Conclave for 4xRancor 2-3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and 2x Increasing Savagery thoughts with the whole planeswalker situation?
December 5, 2012 7:41 p.m.
Given that build, definitely Ajani, CotP. If Thalia is on the board, Garruk can't drop until turn 6, which puts you in an even slower bind with going ultimate for a win off Champion. Ajani would still be able to hit the board at turn 4 without disrupting Thalia, and she's sufficient anti-control that you don't need the threat of card advantage to scare a blue player--their Dissipate will cost them 4 off-turn, and Rewind ceases to pay for itself. Increasing Savagery is still a great spell despite the price tag, and Rancor for 2 is still worth it.
December 6, 2012 1:46 p.m.
It's hard to say if Garruk or Ajani is better for this deck....
My experience with Ajani has been that it's ability to be cast early, and getting to 5 loyalty right away, more than makes up for it's seemingly underwhelming +1 ability. It's an early threat that needs to be taken care of right away. If you are able to defend him, it will win you the game.... and in this deck the number of creatures, and speed that they'll come out should let you defend him. - If you can't defend him, the worst that happens is that your opponent must focus on him for a few turns, allowing you to build an army, like your deck wants to do.
With Garruk, the power is more noticeable, as a 3/3 creature each turn can hurt, and the draw power can be devastating. But he is slower to come out, and needs 3 green mana (shouldn't be a problem in this deck though). - With Champion of Lambholt , you get the same +1/+1 as Ajani would give anyway.
The real comparison is their Ultimates.... this is where I think I favour Ajani for your deck. Champion of Lambholt , and Sublime Archangel , and Gavony Township all work better with 'more' creatures rather than 'large creatures'. - Garruk's power is reliant on the number of land... assuming you are using Arbor Elf , and card:Avacyn's Pilgrim to get him out as early as possible, you may only have 4-5 land when he's ready to ultimate... whereas Thragtusk , and deck:trostani-voice-of-selesnya can increase Ajani's ultimate.
If you are still making consideration for the deck, taking a look at Centaur Healer may be good, as it would greatly increase the power of Ajani, and make it a more viable threat in this deck.
December 6, 2012 2:52 p.m.
You underestimate the decks that Garruk, Primal Hunter is good in. About half of the big Top 8 Jund decks I've seen run him main-board. With Farseek and all the dual-lands we have, there's really no issue getting 3 Green sources in your first 5 lands.
So now you're just arguing that Ajani, Caller of the Pride is better than Garruk, Primal Hunter because Ajani comes out a turn or two faster.
Garruk is much stronger, but Ajani comes out earlier. Garruk gives you a board presence and Ajani needs other creatures out before he can really do anything.
Oftentimes when I use Garruk, Primal Hunter , I find that two to three 3/3 Beast tokens are all you need to either win the game outright or force your opponent to waste a lot of resources on the defense, all while Garruk sits there and makes more tokens and draws you a ton of cards.
In a vacuum, Ajani's ultimate is no better than Garruk's. Essentially, they're the same.
December 6, 2012 2:57 p.m.
One thing however.... if you decide on Ajani, swap out the Strangleroot Geist for the Centaur Healer s... Ajain's +1 on the giest would negate the undying.
December 6, 2012 2:59 p.m.
Good sir (@ zandl), I appreciate your view. You have an excellent point that Garruk is a powerful option. If you have seen decks top-8 with Jund colors and Garruk in mainboard, that speaks volumes and bespeaks excellent deck construction.
I do not, however, appreciate your condescension nor your unwillingness to acknowledge that those who disagree with you may also have a point. I realize that the Internet is not a hotbed for etiquette, but you have gone out of your way to belittle both Rayenous and myself both ad hominem and through straw men. I stated benefits for Ajani that outweighed mere speed, as did Rayenous, and your critique that we lack basic understanding of key game concepts as a means of bolstering your argument had the flaw of not simply being fallacious, but also rude.
The point at question is debatable. You disagree with me, and that is fine, as either card could lead to a strong build, depending upon the style of play.
However, your lack of manners and rhetoric do not give you any edge in answering this question, and they do no service to the original poster. They simply cause you to appear as an uncouth individual who wants to "win" in an thread that should be cooperative instead of competitive.
In short, while I expect no apology, you would be well-served to rethink your diction in the future when providing deck-help, as your attitude comes off as arrogant and, frankly, unhelpful, even if that is not your intent. Our role is to work together to provide advice to those who seek it, and you seem keen on driving posters apart in a quest for some arbitrary acknowledgment of your being the "best" advisor.
xantm70 says... #2
My approach to Garruk is, "Oh, he resolved? Great! I'll draw 9 cards! Off he goes." I know with populate, he's charming in that he pops out beasts, but his ultimate is kind of underwhelming, and triple commitment in Selesnya (or possibly Bant/Naya) is asking a lot. On the other hand, even if there are literally zero legal targets for Ajani, he can still use his +1.
Hashtag: shitcontrolplayerssay
December 5, 2012 12:20 a.m.