Alternate Win Con for Demigod of Revenge Deck
Deck Help forum
Posted on Aug. 8, 2012, 7:40 p.m. by ducttapedeckbox
I've been playtesting this deck that buffy has helped me make, and I've run into one tiny but big problem: if you Buried Alive 3x Demigod of Revenge and the 4th gets countered as it comes into play, the deck is very, very hard to win with. (The other 3 wouldn't come into play if the 4th gets countered, right?)
So, I need an alt. win con in it (or atleast an edit to make sure all 4 Demigod of Revenge s don't become useless)
Suggestions and +1's always welcome!
JaggedJesus says... #3
The other three do come out; Play is synonymous with Cast, rather than Enters the Battlefield.
August 8, 2012 8:36 p.m.
JaggedJesus says... #4
In fact, actually, if you go right down into the timing, If they counter it before you get any of the other Demigod of Revenge out (ie. before it's trigger resolves) you'll even get the one they just countered onto the battlefield.
August 8, 2012 8:38 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #5
@JaggedJesus: Play IS synomynous with Cast. However, a counterspell prevents the spell from being cast. Thusly, if a 4th Demigod was cast and then countered, the three in the graveyard WOULD NOT enter the battlefield from the grave by Demigod's effect. The spell that was countered is counted as never have been cast.
August 8, 2012 8:40 p.m.
JaggedJesus says... #6
I can assure you they can, check the Gatherer rulings.
August 8, 2012 8:43 p.m.
Jokernaught says... #7
2008/5/1 "If Demigod of Revenge is countered before its triggered ability resolves, the ability will still resolve. In fact, it will return that Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to the battlefield, as well as any others"
Straight from http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?&multiverseid=153972
August 8, 2012 8:48 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #8
Huh...looked on the forums and apparently it works out aroundabout how you said it. I'll concede that one. Seems stupid to me though as a concept; you rightfully and skillfully apply a counterspell, and it does bugger all really. That is a pinch unfair.
Hmmm. I'd be safe and see if you can get a few more opinions on this. By the looks of it JaggedJesus is right, but it seems a bit silly to me. :$
August 8, 2012 8:50 p.m.
doinitwrong says... #9
Countering doesn't prevent a spell from being cast (being put onto the stack), it prevents it from resolving (entering the battlefield (in the case of a creature spell) from the stack).
August 8, 2012 8:53 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #10
@Jokernaught: Oh, okay. Thanks for the clarification. (Silly rule though :$)
It may still be an idea to pack Cavern of Souls into your deck though; without a judge around, explaining that particular rules nugget to a casual player will make them go "Whaaaaaaat?". Besides, it'll mean you will almost certainly get all 4 of your Demigods swinging for 20 instead of perhaps 3 of them swinging for only 15.
August 8, 2012 8:53 p.m.
Jokernaught says... #11
Cavern or running Vexing Shusher would work as well. Cavern of Souls being the more expensive option.
August 8, 2012 8:56 p.m.
doinitwrong says... #12
Ordinary counterspells are great, but they can't do everything... that's where Stifle comes in.
August 8, 2012 8:56 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #13
@doinitwrong: Thanks. My playgroup didn't know that (we have merely been playing casually since Zendikar block, see, and I have only played FNM twice)
August 8, 2012 8:59 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #14
Wow I go away for a few hours and this entire discussion strikes up.... So just so I'm clear:
3x Demigod of Revenge in graveyard, 1 in hand - I play/cast a fourth from my hand, but it is countered. Because it was "played", and therefore entered the stack, the other 3 Demigod of Revenge s would return to the battlefield, but the one that was countered is put into the graveyard. OR. are the other three considered "played", and therefore would return the 4th countered one to play?
I will post this as a question to get some more opinions as well.
Jokernaught - I added Vexing Shusher for now, Cavern of Souls is way too expensive for this deck
August 8, 2012 10:35 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #15
Yea... umm... I'm new'ish to these forums... where would I post that question? If I even should?
August 8, 2012 10:40 p.m.
doinitwrong says... #16
Here's the play-by-play of what happens:
- There are 3x Demigods in the grave, 1 in your hand.
- You cast the Demigod from your hand; it goes onto the stack.
- When you cast the Demigod, it's ability triggers; it goes onto the stack on top of the actual Demigod.
- You then pass priority to your opponent, who casts a counterspell targeting the Demigod, it goes on the stack above Demigod's ability.
- The counterspell resolves, countering the Demigod, which is then removed from the stack and put into your graveyard, becoming the 4th one there.
- The Demigod's ability then resolves, putting all Demigods in your graveyard onto the battlefield. At this point, there are 4 Demigods in your grave, so all 4 are put onto the battlefield.
- You attack for 20, GG.
August 8, 2012 10:52 p.m.
I would suggest posting it in the 'General' forum. Although that question has already been answered by the Gatherer rulings posted above.
If you cast a Demigod of Revenge while three are in the Graveyard and the newly cast one is countered then all four of them come to the battlefield. This happens because the newest Demigod (the one you cast from your hand) got put into the Graveyard before the 'returning' ability resolved. Thusly, you get all four after that ability resolves. The only exception would be if the opponent explicitly waits for the 'returning' ability to resolve before countering the Demigod. In that case you still get the other three.
As to the others entering and returning the fourth? That won't happen as the fourth won't be there as I said, and, the others are simply 'put' onto the Battlefield and aren't played or cast.
To quote the official Wizards of the Coast ruling on the matter as Jokernaught so kindly posted above:
2008/5/1 If Demigod of Revenge is countered before its triggered ability resolves, the ability will still resolve. In fact, it will return that Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to the battlefield, as well as any others.
And this ruling is for your second question:
5/1/2008 This ability triggers when you cast Demigod of Revenge as a spell. It won't trigger if Demigod of Revenge is put directly onto the battlefield.
August 8, 2012 11:04 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #18
If I just shift to another example of "When you cast..." abilities, if you hardcast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , you get the extra turn whether they counter it or not?
Danggg, that somehow makes me feel dirty.
August 8, 2012 11:05 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #19
Oh wait, I didn't see the "It can't be countered" clause. I need to read this card more often. :(
August 8, 2012 11:06 p.m.
You do get the extra turn. Although Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is not counterable. :P
"Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered."
August 8, 2012 11:07 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #22
Fair enough :) Now that's resolved, we should probably still consider alternate wincons. After all, graveyard hate is still a hoser for this Demigod strategy;, card:Tormod's Crypt is a good example. Thoughts, guys?
August 8, 2012 11:12 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #23
Thanks for the clarification everyone! Now I just have to manage to explain this when I play the deck....
August 8, 2012 11:20 p.m.
doinitwrong says... #24
In legacy, the most common forms of graveyard hate are card:Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void , and Extirpate . The only way for a BR deck to combat them is to prevent your opponent from playing them in the first place, so I'd suggest adding some Hymn to Tourach 's and/or Duress 's.
August 8, 2012 11:23 p.m.
Jokernaught says... #25
Double-Kill. Haha Okay I think we all got Demigod of Revenge now.
August 8, 2012 11:23 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #26
I didn't see your comment pookypuppy6 - yes if you can think of an alternate win con for me, that'd be great! I just don't want it to defeat the purpose of this deck. I've run into that before many times. It doesn't necessarily have to be an alternate, maybe something to protect the Demigod of Revenge s in the grave?
August 8, 2012 11:23 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #28
Yes Jokernaught, I don't think anyone should ever have a question on Demigod of Revenge again haha
doinitwrong - is there anything to prevent your graveyard from being targeted in the first place? I feel like there is, but I might be wrong.
August 8, 2012 11:25 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #29
Oh! and don't restrict yourself to any format - I just play casually with friends...
August 8, 2012 11:28 p.m.
Jokernaught says... #30
A combination of Duress /Distress and Shadowfeed to prevent flashback/retrace or anything like that.
August 8, 2012 11:28 p.m.
doinitwrong says... #31
Not that I'm currently aware of, but I'll go search Gatherer just in case (Although, Black and Red aren't very big on shroud-like abilities, so my hopes aren't very high).
August 8, 2012 11:30 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #32
That's true, but what if I hit it wrong and they get something the next turn? I'm still in trouble.
Sorry to bail in the middle of this discussion, but I need some sleep haha. I'll check what's been said in the morning!
August 8, 2012 11:33 p.m.
You could play Leyline of Sanctity and something like Ground Seal in tandem. Although you would really need to get the Leyline in your opening hand and play green for Groundseal, haha The Hymn to Tourach defense sounds like a good choice though.
August 8, 2012 11:33 p.m.
Jokernaught says... #34
I'd run Ground Seal , he has enough tutors to fetch both Demi and Seal before he makes his swoop. But it would slow down the deck (maybe) and re-gear it for something else.
August 8, 2012 11:37 p.m.
doinitwrong says... #35
Ok, Ground Seal can stop Extirpate , and Leyline of Sanctity and Witchbane Orb can each stop card:Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb . The problem with Leyline of the Void is that it doesn't target, so hexproof/shroud have no effect on it. The only way to deal with it is either discard spells or Krosan Grip /Naturalize .
Another avenue you can take is to hold onto a way to put cards from your grave into your library. For this there is card:Feldon's Cane, Krosan Reclamation , and Repopulate .
My Conclusion:
There are two ways to protect the graveyard. One is to add discard spells like Hymn to Tourach and Duress to weed out any Grave-hosers your opponents have. The other is splashing Green for a protection suite: Witchbane Orb (for card:Tormod's Crypt), Ground Seal (for Extirpate ), Naturalize (for Leyline of the Void ), and card:Feldon's Cane/Krosan Reclamation /Repopulate as insurance in case something goes wrong. The problem with this strategy is that it requires so many cards that it would take away a lot of the deck's consistency and firepower.
P.S. card:Patriarch's Bidding could make an interesting alternate wincon.
August 9, 2012 12:23 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #36
Thanks for all of the suggestions everyone!
As doinitwrong said, I don't want to take away from the deck's consistency of getting all 4 Demigod of Revenge s out by turn 5 (unless they're exiled out of my graveyard, of course).
I might just have to try to fight around losing the Demigods if the only way to protect them would involve such drastic changes. However, after learning that the Demigods will come back even if it is countered, I don't think I need the Vexing Shusher , so that could open up 4 spaces in the deck.
I could just sideboard those different cards in case I do play against a deck that threatens my graveyard?
Again, thanks for all the comments and help!
August 9, 2012 11:02 a.m.
doinitwrong says... #37
It may help us if you find out what graveyard hate your metagame is likely to play. Are you likely to encounter spells that target you like card:Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb , Haunting Echoes , and Memoricide ? Or will they play spells that target the cards themselves like Extirpate , Coffin Purge , and Purify the Grave ? Or is Leyline of the Void common? Each type of graveyard hoser requires different protection, so knowing what to expect can let you be prepared without half of your deck being protection.
August 9, 2012 1:09 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #38
Everyone is always building new decks, so I never know what to expect. I may just build a sideboard of solely protection spells, so that I can be prepared for most types of graveyard hate. I'll add the sideboard tomorrow (well actually, later today), and I'll see what people think.
I know I've said this many times, but thanks for the help!
pookypuppy6 says... #2
The first thing that comes to mind is to make sure that your fourth Demigod never gets countered. How does Cavern of Souls sound as a way of making your fourth Demigod unstoppable?
Other than that, I suggest recuperation effects like card:Ghoulcaller's Chant so your countered Demigod can come back for a second try.
How about Mortivore for an alternate win con, seeing as creatures will be sitting in your grave?
Also be aware that another problem other than getting your Demigod countered is getting your graveyard exiled before you cast it.
August 8, 2012 8:23 p.m.