Can a straight up burn deck work in standard?
Deck Help forum
Posted on Feb. 11, 2014, 11:39 a.m. by actiontech
Because I think maybe it can. Here's my plan:
What's that ya got on your face? Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 3 | 1 COMMENTS | 222 VIEWSAlso the fact that you're sacrificing interactivity for the rush strategy which means that if anything does go wrong and they do manage to stabilise and bring out that 5/5 - you're a bit screwed.
February 11, 2014 11:46 a.m.
Pure burn? Probably not. But burn heavy decks. Absolutely. I went 3-1 (one life away from 4-0) last night using a burn heavy Boros deck against some very good veteran players. I'll post that build and play soon.
February 11, 2014 12:07 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #5
Depends what other people are playing. Seems like some people on here play at low-competitive stores, where more non-tier 1 decks seem to be successful. If you play at a very competitive store, I doubt this would get you many wins.
Other than adding Boros Reckoner , I would switch out Satyr Firedancer for Ash Zealot . You may not use her ability very often, but a hasty 2/2 firststriker on turn 2 can change the outcome of a game. Because the Satyr can only throw extra damage at a creature, it doesn't really work towards your goal of burning someone's face off as fast as you can.
February 11, 2014 12:22 p.m.
SharuumNyan I respectfully disagree about Satyr Firedancer , whether he is a main board or sideboard card is still in debate, but the fact that he can pound creatures allows you to burn to the face and not worry about pesky creatures hitting back. Certainly he's bad in some match ups, e.g. I don't think he deserves to be main board against MBD, but he has potential especially if you splash white for 4x Boros Charm . I'll post my build soon.
February 11, 2014 12:30 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #7
Legitimate BURN Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 7 | 7 COMMENTS | 1126 VIEWSYup, it's definitely not tier 1 but is still a solid deck.
February 11, 2014 1 p.m.
i do think Satyr Firedancer can be playable with spells like Chandra's Outrage that deals damage to players and creatures 4 to creature and 2 to player and because of Satyr Firedancer you will deal 2 more to creature so will be total of 6 to creature, you can take down Desecration Demon with it , also can use it with Searing Blood will have the same effect eventhou it cost too much ive been thinking of Pyromancer's Gauntlet
February 11, 2014 1:29 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #9
Satyr Firedancer can do one damage to your opponent on turn three, and possibly wipe out small creatures starting on turn two.
Ash Zealot can do two damage to your opponent on turn two.
The goal of a burn deck is to do as much damage to your opponent as quickly as possible, and take them out before they can kill you. Defensive spells and blocking creatures aren't really part of the equation.
Doing two damage on turn two is more valuable than doing one damage and hitting creatures on turn 2 or 3. Every single point of early damage counts in burn. The slower the creatures (like the Satyr), the weaker the deck becomes.
February 11, 2014 1:31 p.m.
SharuumNyan you are thinking more of an aggro, but a deck could be also midrange or more towards control, the deck owner will decide, also the 2nd and the 3rd will also bring more stability to the deck
February 11, 2014 1:47 p.m.
No, I'm with Sharoooooom on this. A burn deck wants to be aggro. A midrange burn deck doesn't do well.
February 11, 2014 1:50 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #12
Exactly ChiefBell. There isn't supposed to be stability in a burn deck. You make it fast to outrace everyone else, or it fizzles.
February 11, 2014 1:53 p.m.
IMO this is the flaw of the burn decks because they run out of gas and if you dont kill soon it will be for sure you will lose, thats why i believe midrange with heavier spells will do the difference,
with the burn aggro if your opponent wins any life will be almost certain you will be loosing
dont get me wrong i love RED in MTG but this is not the time nor the sets for this type of red decks
February 11, 2014 1:58 p.m.
You can't play midrange though because you'll just never have enough steam to both kill their Polukranos, World Eater and continue burning them in the face. The other problem is that red has no card draw and that burn spells can only be used once but a Polu can sit there and swing at you all day.
February 11, 2014 2:07 p.m.
i dont think you read my comment on top but
Satyr Firedancer + Chandra's Outrage = 2 damage to player and 6 to creature you can take
you name it
February 11, 2014 2:14 p.m.
You can but that's a two card combo and there are fewer burn spells capable on killing 5 toughness creatures than there are 5 toughness creatures. The problems are that firstly - everyone's going to be killing your S.Firedancer and secondly that you can't fill your hand up with spells quickly enough to keep playing threats.
February 11, 2014 2:33 p.m.
1st thosew 2 cards does not make a combo those card can work independetly just fine is not that will only work with certain cards......second , yes Satyr Firedancer for being such a threat being in play everyone will try to kill it as soon as they can that is what tells you is a good card, if it wouldnt then people wont bother killing it with such a hurry it reminds me somehow to the Sparksmith was a realthreat on its time too and it would give you board control if its not killed just like Intrepid Hero
February 11, 2014 3:01 p.m.
actiontech says... #18
Card draw is definitely going to be an issue. All I am aware of in boros colors is Wild Guess which seems pretty bad. I do have a fair amount of scry with the temples and Magma Jet s but drawing more cards would really help.
Remember, I won't be trying to clear their board with this deck. Every burn spell will be straight to the face of my opponent. I'm just not sure a lot of current decks can deal with that kind of pressure. I mean, not too many are mainboarding more than 4 counter spells and if you get hit with Thoughtseize what's he going to take? I'd be happy to have him take the 2 damage from casting the thing in the first place.
February 11, 2014 3:03 p.m.
Satyr Firedancer does not do anything on its own. Chandra's Outrage does not kill Polu on its own. The two require each other. It's synergy.
February 11, 2014 3:11 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #20
Burn decks can run out of gas, but in a bad situation any deck can run out of gas. A well designed burn deck takes this into account. If you're running mostly burn spells, with a few creatures that offer great synergy, you're going to outrace your opponent. The problem is in having enough powerful burn and the right synergy available in a format. Right now in Standard you can't produce an optimal burn deck, which is why it's not a popular archetype right now. You can make a burn deck as good as it can possibly be though.
February 11, 2014 3:27 p.m.
Bolt of Keranos will help you also it has scry and can target creatures or players, i really would recommend playing at least a match again variety of decks so you can see if playable on the format,
February 11, 2014 3:29 p.m.
i think the same SharuumNyan
Oracle of Bones has also synergy with your type of deck too....
February 11, 2014 3:32 p.m.
The argument was about rush burn versus midrange burn. Whilst there is some argument that rush burn could work there is no chance that midrange would work. It's just way too delicate.
I would urge you to play more games where you're forced to topdeck after T5 to see how ludicrous the concept is.
February 11, 2014 3:36 p.m.
There are two separate decks being discussed here, each of which has different strategies.
The first is a pure RDW, which is all burn, all to the face, no draw, and doesn't care if you end up with 3 life as long as your opponent reaches zero the turn before you'd face lethal. This deck runs small creatures with haste, like Ash Zealot and Chandra's Phoenix to put on added pressure. I agree that Satyr Firedancer doesn't have a place in this build. I question whether this can be a tier 1 deck in the current standard meta. I don't know, I haven't played it and haven't faced it in the current meta.
The other is a midrange-type deck with lots of burn built into it. This deck uses Satyr Firedancer
with a wide arrangement of burn spells (Boros Charm
, Lightning Strike
, Magma Jet
, Searing Blood
, Warleader's Helix
, etc.) and solid creatures like Chandra's Phoenix
, Boros Reckoner
, Stormbreath Dragon
to smash face. This deck uses similar elements but isn't designed to win by T5. Satyr Firedancer
adds flexibility and sustainability to this build because you can add pressure by burning to the face while also controlling the board and providing favorable match ups for your creatures. Satyr Firedancer
just gives you better match ups when you swing in with anything, because you don't waste a burn spell on finishing off a creature; instead you burn their face and still capitalize on the exchange. This build is also more sustainable with Chandra, Pyromaster
for draw. This is the deck I played last night, going 7-4 on wins and 3-1 on matches (1-2 v MBD/splash white, 2-0 minotaurs, 2-0 Selensya aggro, 2-1 esper aggro). In the match I lost to MBD I had my opponent to 1 life game three, and couldn't draw a finisher before he stabilized with blood baron (and I screwed up my sideboard a little, which left me poorly prepared for Mr Baron). Once I get home I'll put up that build and more details of the matches. It was fun and preformed well.
Both strategies work, debating which is better is somewhat silly. They're different beasts with distinct pros and cons.
February 11, 2014 4:03 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #25
It's not really about debating which one is better. It's about what is and isn't a burn deck. The deck you played is a midrange red deck. It doesn't really fit the "burn" archetype.
February 11, 2014 4:09 p.m.
Yeh that's my point. I was never talking about the established red midrange, I was talking about a proposed burn midrange. I know that red midrange is a thing but I was discussing a different possibility.
February 11, 2014 4:15 p.m.
as long as the deck can be build it exist, wether is feasible or not is another story, if you want i can give it a try and show the deck ?
February 11, 2014 4:32 p.m.
I only really care about decks that win tournaments sorry. Spike player and all.
February 11, 2014 4:41 p.m.
well as a Johnny player i do care about fun playing my game sorry
February 11, 2014 4:43 p.m.
actiontech says... #30
I like to have an extra deck on hand for when a friend wants to join me at FNM. I need things that aren't complicated. This is as simple as it gets I think. I'll probably build it and tinker a bit.
Didn't mean to start an argument.
February 11, 2014 4:45 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #31
actiontech go for it. My build is similar to the R/W Burn deck that saw pro tourney play. There will be points that the meta is vulnerable to burn but it will never be a tier 1 deck it can rock a FNM and be easy to play.
Brad Nelson played R/W Burn at Nashville this past weekend, decklist, and placed 185th if anyone wants to peep it.
I keep seeing Ash Zealot being brought up and that card is terrible in a burn deck. It has no evasion and is a dead draw if not played on turn 2 (maybe 3) with the opponent not being able to block favorably.
February 11, 2014 5:18 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #32
Saying that a card is terrible just in case you draw it at the wrong time is a strange thing to say, because there isn't a deck out there that doesn't have that problem to some extent. Most Esper players don't want Sphinx's Revelation in their opening hand, but that doesn't make it a terrible card.
Just try out Ash Zealot in a burn deck. You might be surprised.
February 11, 2014 5:33 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #33
Burn is my favorite archetype. I don't find it strange thing to say either. It's very easy to evaluate:
When I pull this card off the top of my deck is it going to do damage to my opponent? Maybe but probably not.
Does it give me card advantage? No
Does it increase the value I'm getting out of the other spells in my deck? No
Firedrinker Satyr is favorable to Ash Zealot in a standard burn deck because it has the potential to do more damage on turn 2 and from then on out while providing a mana sink.
Ash Zealot is great for an aggro deck supported by a decent amount of burn but a true burn deck wouldn't give it a second glance. The reason cards like Hellspark Elemental see play in burn decks is he has 3 power on T2 with haste, trample, and an ability that makes it essentially 2 spells in one. That trample gives you confidence some damage is getting through even if there is a blocker. Asking those same 3 questions for Satyr Firedancer , Young Pyromancer , Chandra's Phoenix , and Guttersnipe and you will have yourself some yeses and the reasons a burn deck would consider the creature.
February 11, 2014 6:10 p.m.
how does Firedrinker Satyr do more than Ash Zealot on T2?
February 11, 2014 6:16 p.m.
If you pour your mana into it, and the opponent doesn't have a blocker, it can deal 3 damage instead of two, at the cost of board presence, having mana up, and 1 life.
February 11, 2014 6:17 p.m.
Sorry, thought the satyr was a 2-drop, not a 1 drop. Of course. Silly me.
February 11, 2014 6:19 p.m.
Alright, not a true burn deck but a midrange boros deck with a serious burn element.
Triumph of the Legion Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 1 | 0 COMMENTS | 0 VIEWSPlease take a look, feedback is appreciated.
February 11, 2014 10:47 p.m.
Apoptosis i played against a very similar deck using Ash Zealot , Chained to the Rocks , Stormbreath Dragon , Boros Reckoner and Purphoros, God of the Forge
it was more oriented to red devotion but was R/W midrange really serious deck i have to say, has a lot of synergy
February 17, 2014 7:18 a.m.
I disagree with SharuumNyan about a burn deck being about a straight burn to the opponent. That's not necessarily what today's Standard burn deck is about. Most of the burn is actually used to keep the board clear and to control the game while using player burn or extra burn spells on the player. Usually now burn decks are relying on permanents to do a good chunk of damage and I recently moved from a 4 creature deck to a 10 creature deck realizing that SharuumNyan's second point is actually pretty true, a pure burn deck definitely runs out of gas. All it takes is some life gain from your opponent and you are set pretty far behind hence why running a few creatures is so important. My deck runs a lot better now,before it was just running 4 Chandra's Phoenix but now its also running 4 Boros Reckoner and 2 Stormbreath Dragon .
Someone mentioned Satyr Firedancer being good in some matchups and not good at others. I think that alone should prove that Firedancer is generally a sideboard card because aren't sideboard cards meant to be used when great against matchups (weenie, aggro decks) and not-at-all effective in other matchups (control)?
February 17, 2014 1:43 p.m.
Here's what I'm currently running in regards to a Boros Burn deck: Standard R/W Burn, still contains mostly burn but you are going to need creatures if you want to consistently win games, I don't think you need to go over 10 creatures though given that they are effective enough.
In regards to the debate between Ash Zealot and Satyr Firedancer , it quite honestly doesn't matter in a burn deck and it really should reflect a player's personal style/opinion. Some situations Ash Zealot will come out with more damage and in others Firedancer will be able to economize its burn spells better. I don't think there's a better card between these 2, its situational.
ChiefBell says... #2
A lot of people are saying yes but I think they're still too slow. I had an argument with someone about this the other day but I'm pretty sure that even having all the Skullcrack s in the world isn't going to save you from 4x S.Rev or Gary.
February 11, 2014 11:46 a.m.