Deck Help forum
Posted on Dec. 23, 2013, 7:12 p.m. by kmcree
Obviously, Thoughtseize is the better card, as seen in the price. But, for an Esper control deck that's already running a lot of shocklands, I'm actually tempted to run Duress to save myself the life. I figure the biggest benefit is getting to see my opponents hand, and knowing when to use counters/kill spells. What do people think?
I'll probably run 6-8 basics. I have all 12 shocks, and then a mix of scylands. I haven't completely decided how many of them I should run.
I was considering going 2 and 2, but I feel like that's a lot, considering I also have playsets of Hero's Downfall and Detention Sphere , along with the usual counters. I was originally going to only devote 2 slots but maybe its worthy of 4.
December 23, 2013 7:28 p.m.
Are you joking? Life loss isn't even remotely relevant. Esper control is usually running 3-4x Sphinx's Revelation .
December 23, 2013 7:35 p.m.
Thoughtseize is a great card, no doubt, but the basic difference is one hits creatures, whereas Duress does not. That is it. If you have good creature control otherwise, then I would run the risk, and the cost-effictiveness, of 4x Duress instead of the Thoughtseize . I have used them in my own MBD, and I see little difference.
December 23, 2013 7:37 p.m.
T1, shock, Thoughtseize T2, land, passT3, basic or shock to hold up Dissolve , passT4 shock for Supreme Verdict , pass
up to 8 life spent on turn four. Lots of aggro decks will love to have you take damage - A Rev for two on turn 5 probably won't win you the race.
December 23, 2013 7:38 p.m.
Obviously in the control mirror, life loss isn't a problem - but so much of the meta right now is aggro, it's ridiculous.
Also, how to insert line breaks?
December 23, 2013 7:39 p.m.
Then you play Supreme Verdict T4 and the aggro player stalls out.....
December 23, 2013 7:41 p.m.
And you sideboard in Essence Scatter and Azorius Charm so you have a T2 play. Aggro - no problem.
December 23, 2013 7:41 p.m.
Mono-blue devotion plays Thassa, God of the Sea for a reason.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts ensures they don't run out of threats.
and Xathrid Necromancer has been increasingly popular in Orzhov/White Weenie lists.
December 23, 2013 7:42 p.m.
yeah, < br (space) / > is how I usually do it, I just managed to forget xD
December 23, 2013 7:43 p.m.
I'm not trying to downplay Thoughtseize - the card is bananas. I'm just saying, shocking yourself - sometimes repeatedly - isn't optimal, especially in aggro metas.
December 23, 2013 7:46 p.m.
But if I take 8 damage in 4 turns just from shocks and Thoughtseize , there's lots of aggro decks that can deal 12 in 4 turns. Game over. I feel like the only creature Thoughtseize helps with that I really don't have another answer for is the baron. And if I see him coming, I can always counter him. Again, I see the biggest advantage of these 2 cards as the ability to see your opponents hand and time your counters/removal. If I don't steal anything particularly threatening, its not a huge loss.
December 23, 2013 7:46 p.m.
Mono blue is decreasingly popular, now people know how to combat it - hint: Negate . Garruk, Caller of Beasts is a 6-drop AND still fails hard to Supreme Verdict . Xathrid Necromancer - meh. Mono-blue and Garruk are midrange decks anyway, not aggro.
December 23, 2013 7:47 p.m.
You're missing the point - with Thoughtseize you will have taken the things out of the combo players hand that would have damaged you in the first place.
December 23, 2013 7:48 p.m.
I recognize Thoughtseize is a great card, don't get me wrong. I'm just worried that with a control deck against a more aggressive meta, I won't be able to stabilize in time if I'm dealing myself all this damage.
December 23, 2013 7:49 p.m.
I understand your concern and I'm saying - you'll be fine. But you need to know what to sideboard in against aggro. You need those 4x Essence Scatter , 4x Azorius Charm . Early counter and tempo plays. Use Thoughtseize to get rid of Xathrid Necromancer or something else nasty. Make sure you get your T4 Supreme Verdict and you've won.
December 23, 2013 7:51 p.m.
I'd rather main the Essence Scatter over Thoughtseize if your meta is dominated by aggro.
December 23, 2013 7:53 p.m.
You're probably right. It just makes me nervous I guess.
December 23, 2013 7:54 p.m.
I'd take as many T1 and T2 control plays as I could. Back that up with your 4x Supreme Verdict and 3-4 Sphinx's Revelation and you should be ok against aggro. The key against aggro is to make sure you don't rely on the T3 Dissolve . Too much can happen in 3 turns, if you do nothing. It's all about maximising those T1s and 2s. In desperate circumstance even a Judge's Familiar can screw up a strategy relying on Rakdos Shred-Freak .
December 23, 2013 7:57 p.m.
You run 4x Thoughtseize and however many duresses you want sideboard if you care about hand disruption. Aggro is falling out of whack because it can't disrupt MUD, MBD dismantles its threats completely, and it fails to draw consistantly. A T1 thoughtseize is actually not ideal unless they play weenies, T2-T3 gives access to more cards. If you don't know what they are playing a T1 thoughtseize is a little better because you:
A) instantly know how to play around anything and what their deck strategy is
B) get the knowledge of how to sequence removal effectively.
But yes. Taking creatures off Thoughtseize is totally worth the two life.
December 23, 2013 8:19 p.m.
Thoughtseize hits everything, there by giving you advantage over your opponent. You wont need to compensate the 2 life when your opponent has nothing they can do. Yeah, duress doesnt make you lose life, but it also cant remove those big creatures that are going to hurt you for a lot more than a 2 ping. Your life is a resource, like your mana.
December 23, 2013 9:52 p.m.
hesuskrist says... #25
if you can get away with removal instead of shocking your self thats great, but i cant help but think that as long as ur seizing a threat thatd deal >2 damage - your just snatching the 2 damage upfront, reading their hand, and getting their hand empty. while its true there isnt a strict card advantage here, esper is real great at getting card advantage. My favorite point in an aggro game is when they have no cards in hand, will probably draw mana and 3 drops, while Ill be getting a full hand and ensuring control till a win con. after all that long windedness, duress isnt 15 dollars, i run them instead
December 23, 2013 10:44 p.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #26
Honestly, Thoughtseize is only a bit better than Duress , in that it almost hits creatures, but at a cost. My advice: run 2 of each in your main board, don't bother with anything in the sideboard. Thoughtseize is wasted probably 30% of the time it's played when an opponent has no creatures in hand, and there is just as much of a chance of creatures being weenies that pose no threat to your deck. Duress really is good enough for the most part.
December 23, 2013 11:15 p.m.
Blizzicane says... #27
If you can afford it Thoughtseize for the reasons said previously by chief. :3
thyhax says... #2
Thoughtseize hits so, so much more. It takes everything - especially opposing Blood Baron of Vizkopa s. But life loss is extremely relevant.
Some lists I've seen do 2 main 2 side, but you would be safe going 2 Thoughtseize main and 2 Duress side - just side the Seize out. Some odd lists of BWR have 4 Thoughtseize main, but also 4 Duress side. I don't know, how many basics do you run?
December 23, 2013 7:18 p.m.