Feedback on removal and planeswalkers for B/W? (Modern)
Deck Help forum
Posted on Aug. 29, 2013, 10:25 a.m. by Trollhoffer
I've been trying out a new deck, and it's been performing pretty reasonably, given the circumstances (that is, mostly against a specific friend's deck that is designed to counteract its mechanics). That said, I'm looking at improving it a tad, moreso through removal and planewalker selection than creature alteration.
My current go-tos are Mortify and Go for the Throat . They do pretty well, but I was also looking into Orzhov Charm for the flexibility. Its appeal is getting rid of creatures for 2 CMC, mainly, but given that I have many one-drop creatures, its graveyard retrieval ability is also highly useful. Furthermore, since it can return my creatures to my hand, I can give them a second round of extort or increase the survivability of something like Archangel of Thune .
On planeswalkers, I'm heavily favouring Sorin Markov against control matchups. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is decent enough, but given the existing access to lifegain in this deck, I don't think I'll get much out of the tokens he produces. The former version of Sorin, however, boosts his own loyalty with a burn ability and cuts other lifegain decks down to size, so I'm heavily favouring that one.
As an end note, while Smite is currently sideboarded, I haven't tested it in this deck yet. I like it because it's a responsive form of cheap removal that punishes aggression against me, can be extorted, and can save my pretty pathetic blockers from a premature demise.
Am I on the money here, or right out of the park?
Liliana of the Veil and Elspeth, Knight-Errant are prime choices for planeswalkers in modern. Path to Exile is generally the go to if you don't have a problem with a land advantage; there are also more detrimental removals like Geth's Verdict or Smallpox .
August 29, 2013 11:41 a.m.
Trollhoffer says... #4
Cheers for the suggestions, Slycne.
Path to Exile seems like the obvious choice, but I don't know how I feel about ramping my opponent and letting them play a turn ahead. For instance, against this deck, it could be used against Fiendslayer Paladin on turn 3 and allow me to push out a turn 4 Archangel of Thune . That's a pretty brutal turn 4 play if I have other lifelinkers out, or extorters (and Tithe Drinker just happens to be both!). I can only imagine what havoc could be unleashed if I used it on decks with similarly or more powerful bombs.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a choice I didn't consider, but I do kind of dislike that she would compete against Sublime Archangel in the four-drop range, and I would personally consider the angel to be a better board stabiliser for this deck. What I like about Sorin Markov (in part) is that he would only ever compete with Pontiff of Blight , and only if I sideboarded the Pontiff in. In addition, he's much harder to remove than most other planeswalkers, threatens with his ultimate in just a couple of turns, and syngergises with both lifegain in general and extort's tendency to create symmetrical life disparities. That said, I'm not about to disregard Elspeth -- she is, after all, both a knight and one of the best planeswalkers out there, which is a happy combination for this deck.
Again, the suggestions and feedback are well appreciated. Elspeth is a definite contender -- PtE probably less so, because without seeing an opponent's hand, I'd have no idea whether ramping them is a misplay, whereas more regular removal is much less likely to come back to haunt me.
August 29, 2013 11:47 a.m.
It's not uncommon for folks to be initially scared off by Path to Exile , but I'd argue that in most situations this is incorrect, especially in the confines of modern.
Modern is an aggressively fast format, all things considered, with greedy mana bases. I've "failed to find" with my Affinity deck more times than I can count off a Path to Exile because the deck runs only a single basic. Also it's an incredibly fast format, where the usefulness of an extra land is often mitigated. You're more often going to ramp your opponent into playing more than one thing in a turn that a big threat, most decks are topping out at 4 or 5 CMC.
The decks you're going to be weakest too are the combo decks, speaking of which you need to load the sideboard with some discard for these match-ups Tidehollow Sculler , Thoughtseize , Sin Collector , Duress , etc. Holding up a Path to Exile for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Melira, Sylvok Outcast while still presenting a clock is a lot easier than 2-3 CMC. Just something to think about.
August 29, 2013 12:41 p.m.
Trollhoffer says... #6
I hadn't thought about Sin Collector for this deck, but now that you mention it, it seems like an obvious sideboard card if I decide to go with Orzhov Charm . Given that I can return it to hand with the Charm, I can get additional value out of its EtB and additional extort. Do you think a 15-card sideboard is enough to change a deck's type somewhat? That is, while it would be obviously impossible to use a sideboard to change the "make-your-weenies-clocks" nature of exalted and move away from aggression, I'm wondering if it would be possible to introduce enough additional control (especially with card draw from the likes of Sign in Blood ) to have a version of the deck that can play something of a control game in its own right.
In that kind of alteration, Sin Collector seems like a good replacement for Fiendslayer Paladin , since the Paladin is currently there to ride off exalted, remove some degree of interaction from Tithe Drinker and be hexproof against commonplace instant-speed removal. But I also find that Tithe Drinker can pull its own weight on the offense, with exalted support, as long as there isn't early-game deathtouch on the board (or significantly powerful first strike). Swapping out the Paladin for the Collector when it suits me to play more control-heavy seems like a strong option, but I'm not sure the existing deck structure and a 15-card sideboard could support that. I'll also look into swapping out some of the sideboard for discard, especially given how cheap (and therefore extortable) a lot of discard spells are.
My problem with Liliana of the Veil is that her abilities don't really help me much. Her +1 is only good if I have madness costs on cards or if I have graveyard access to make the opponent's discard more of a disadvantage, and at worst, I could play into the designs of a graveyard access deck. Her -2 faces a similar problem. While Liliana is definitely a great planeswalker in the right deck, I don't think she's particularly appropriate for this one.
Thanks again to the both of you.
August 29, 2013 1:06 p.m.
Trollhoffer I guess it depends on how competitive you want the deck to be. While it's possible to make a transformative sideboard in Modern, the card pool is so large and decks so diverse that you'd be giving up a lot of opportunity to bring in cards that can simply hose other decks.
When you have access to cards like Lingering Souls , Kataki, War's Wage and Leyline of Sanctity , it's hard not to want to include them in the sideboard for how hard they can blow-out some match-ups.
August 29, 2013 1:37 p.m.
Planeswalkers: your deck cries out for Elspeth, Knight-Errant . All that ground-based exalted...now at +3/+3 with flying! For +1 Loyalty! In this particular case, neither Sorin can even compete.
For removal, I understand the bad feelings about ramping via Path to Exile . What's important to recognize though is that a) Path kills a lot of things dead that other removal does not (I'm thinking mostly Wurmcoil Engine , Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , and Voice of Resurgence , though there are others), and b) if they're so far behind on land that you ramping them is a problem, you probably don't need to kill anything anyway. If you still don't feel good about Path, then Dismember is your next best bet.
I see sideboarding talk, so let me address that as well. One of my decks is a BW deck, and while it plays completely different cards, it's the same sort of midrangey deck that kills by attacking with creatures. You will be very powerful against "fair" decks and very soft to combo, which can just win before you can get going. You will want to address that in your sideboard.
First, that means targeted discard. If Thoughtseize is out of budget, Duress and maybe Inquisition of Kozilek are really good. This is really important, important enough that I actually main deck several discard spells so I don't just roll over to combo in game one.
You will also want to stop the digging that some of your bad matchups like Pod and Tron will do, so Aven Mindcensor is really useful. Some combos are graveyard-based, and since you're not in green, Relic of Progenitus will be very useful. It also blanks Tarmogoyf , which is a nice side effect. A little added removal will certainly not hurt either, so you might want to consider whichever you didn't add of Path to Exile and Dismember .
Slycne says... #2
I would run a playset of Path to Exile before any of those removal spells first. No restrictions, no graveyard shenanigans: it's just gone and you'll have enough mana left to make other plays that turn.
The only issue I see with Sorin Markov in the control matchup is that he doesn't generate any card advantage for you, which is really what you want against them. You'll be lucky to kill off a stray Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique . Even if say you get to + him twice, they can still take care of it with a single card potentially. Where as say Sorin, Lord of Innistrad has left 2 tokens on the field. The one thing Sorin Markov does have going for him is that he'd be difficult to remove with the mostly damage heavy modern removal, ticking up to 6 loyalty means it's going to take double Lightning Bolt / Lightning Helix to kill him.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant would be a much stronger choice in my opinion and she works better with the exalted theme, letting you jump ground blockers.
August 29, 2013 11:24 a.m.