Help combating Roon and general flicker shenanigans
Deck Help forum
Posted on Dec. 22, 2013, 3:48 p.m. by ChiefBell
I'm playing a GBW EDH deck and I don't have an answer at the moment except for - wipe the board so there's nothing left to flicker. Are there any cards that severely neuter this kind of strategy? I already have Grand Abolisher and Linvala, Keeper of Silence . I use an infinite sacrifice/recursion strategy so I need ETBs to still work. I'm thinking about something that stops activated abilities?
Deck here:
Reanimation; the Oppressive Nation
Or there's also Suppression Field to make them more expensive.
December 22, 2013 4:18 p.m.
I feel like I shouldn't be telling you this (since I play a Roon of the Hidden Realm EDH deck myself), but, actually LD and MLD take care of it nicely.
Flicker effects from Roon and Deadeye Navigator (and even more so from Nephalia Smuggler , Mistmeadow Witch , and amplifying effects like Strionic Resonator ) tend to eat up available mana resources. Especially if you take out blue mana sources ... especially, especially if you can strip all available blue mana from the player running Roon.
December 22, 2013 4:26 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #8
Oh nvm, you said you want ETB's to still work.
Wait, couldn't you just Naturalize your own Torpor Orb once you have all your combo pieces?
December 22, 2013 4:55 p.m.
Wouldn't solve anything. Roon could flicker my own creatures to stop me comboing.
December 22, 2013 4:57 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #10
Pithing Needle his Roon of the Hidden Realm then. :D
December 22, 2013 4:59 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #11
Or just Murder it with all the kills spells in your colors, there's a gajillion.
December 22, 2013 5 p.m.
You can't use removal because they flicker themselves. I'm not using Pithing Needle against a deck where there are in the region of 15 creatures with flicker effects. It has to be something like Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Damping Matrix .
December 22, 2013 5:02 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #13
Roon of the Hidden Realm doesn't have haste, which gives you a whole cycle to answer it before he can start using its abilities.
Here are a couple of reason why I say murders and naturalizes are more efficient than hosers like Damping Matrix :
1) It's hard to answer a murder: Basically counterspells and a couple of "combat trick"-like cards stop it, but only IN RESPONSE to it.
2) It's easy to answer a hoser: He can just murder or naturalize the hoser card ANYTIME it's giving him a problem.
3) Murders and naturalizes can also be used to get rid of other cards that flicker without using an activated ability: a great example is Conjurer's Closet .
Ultimately, I think you'll find that specific cards to answer another deck isn't gonna strengthen your deck all that much.
Even better, there are many creatures that are murders and naturalizes as they enter in your colors, which seems like something that you could employ as well.
December 22, 2013 5:17 p.m.
mstancea -
It's easy to answer a Murder when your deck can flicker creatures at instant speed. From my position - I have to wait until he can't activate any of his creatures (typically 2-3 can flicker at any one time) and is tapped out (because blue runs a lot of counterspells). That makes it awkward and slow. Secondly, of course, if Roon is the commander - he just gets re-cast. You've then achieved nothing.
This is true but then he has to make a concerted effort to either add those kinds of cards (Naturalize etc) to the deck and have a way of quickly finding them. There aren't many tutors in Roon's colours - therefore it's unreliable.
Conjurer's closet doesn't affect my creatures and is therefore ineffective.
A competitive deck running a sideboard and around 15 tutor cards can easily, switch in, find, and play answers to most deck archetypes.
Therefore - 3 main problems with your suggestions. a) he has multiple creatures that can flicker each other to avoid being targeted. b) I have to wait until he's tapped out and can't play a counter. c) removed creatures can be replaced.
A global answer like Damping Matrix forces the opponent to restructure how they use their deck and actively look for an answer. A card like Murder is answered without the opponent changing any aspect of their playstyle. A global answer like Damping Matrix stops all of his creatures from being irritating and doesn't care whether Roon dies and is recast. In fact the only problem it suffers from is being countered but with Sun Titan in the deck, that's not even an issue.
December 22, 2013 5:39 p.m.
Which is precisely why LD works. They will have to choose between playing new creatures / spells and leaving mana open defensively. Either way you have effectively slowed them down and should be able to beat them.
Terastodon , Sylvan Primordial , Acidic Slime , etc.
All of these would fit in reanimator that runs G anyway.
December 22, 2013 6 p.m.
And by the way, the cards I just listed are also a reason why trying to stop them with the likes of Torpor Orb might not work.
December 22, 2013 6:01 p.m.
Nevermind ... I take that back LOL ... maybe it would work if you are lucky enough to get it ...
December 22, 2013 6:02 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #20
Disagree how? Do you mean to say that you can retroactively answer a destroy effect? Or are you instead saying that you can't answer Damping Matrix once it's on the field. Or perhaps you disagree that there exist other ways to flicker creatures other than through activated abilities. You can't just "disagree" with my statements, cause they're not opinions.
If you really don't want to water down your deck by having answers that are versatile, then just build a stronger deck that wins before roon can start doing anything.
December 22, 2013 7:08 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #21
He can respond with the ability when roon doesn't have summoning sickness. In other words, if everyone ignores it during each of their turns.
What I am saying is that these effects are found as ETBs, and his creatures can kill your hosers (unless it's a torpor orb).
Conjurers closet is something he can use to flicker sylvan primordial even when you got your Linvala or Damping Matrix.
I have never heard of a sideboard for commander, but I don't see how it's relevant. I still stand by my belief that creatures with ETBs that act as murders are MUCH better at winning against your friends roon deck.
December 22, 2013 7:16 p.m.
mstancea -
I'm playing 1v1. It's very different because he has no hatred coming from anyone else! This means no-one else ever taps him out or forces him to use a counterspell or a flicker effect.
I actually completely see your point regarding number 2). and likewise, 3). His ETBs will deal with things like Damping Matrix . Having said that I still feel like it's harder for him to find creatures that destroy artifacts on entry, than it is for him to find flickering creatures that can avoid the effects of Murder etc. He might have 2 or 3 creatures that destroy artifacts, whereas the entire deck is built around flicker effects.
I think what I was trying to communicate (and failing) was the fact that I never have a single chance or opening to play those effects because he's never tapped-out and's never 'wasted' his flicker effects. This is the nature of 1v1 - I have no help from other players.
December 23, 2013 4:20 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #23
Oh okay, gotcha. I can see how Roon in a 1v1 would be tough to fight!
ChiefBell says... #2
Something like Pithing Needle but a bit more powerful.
December 22, 2013 3:57 p.m.