How can a Selesnya deck beat Control?
Deck Help forum
Posted on May 11, 2013, 4:20 p.m. by DreamGoddessLindsey
In FNM last night, I played with my Balance in Nature deck for the first time. I thought it was solid after changing some cards and tweaking it a little bit. Nonetheless, I went 2-2 for the night.
One of my wins was 2-0 against a Gruul Bloodrush deck (dunno if it has another name, I'm not good at remembering terminology) which went well, but that was the last match of the night. Things were not well otherwise.
My other win was a 1-0-1 against a seven-year-old with a B/W deck who wasn't completely clear on some of the rules and ran the clock down in game 2. I don't really wanna talk about that, it was painful since I'm 32.
I wanna talk about the two losses. The first was 0-2 against a U/B/W control deck with four Planeswalkers in it. I got mercilessly annihilated. I couldn't even play a single card because everything was countered, and even when I got a monster on the field, he had a monster with deathtouch that could deal damage out of combat via equipment or something, so all my creatures just got killed the turn I pulled them out. There was a card that was / with power and toughness equal to the number of cards in my graveyard which murdered me and I also faced Garruk Relentless Flip into Garruk, the Veil-Cursed Flip , Jace, Architect of Thought , and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage (can't remember all the cards though). Garruk, Primal Hunter was played a second time after I killed him the first time. It was brutal and it sucked all the fun out of the game. It's impossible to have fun when you literally can't play much of anything at all. It was a curb stomp and very disheartening.
The second loss was a 1-2 loss to a U/G/B control deck. I won the first game by chance because the opponent started with a lousy hand and I got a good draw. The other two games went very badly, forcing me to discard from my library until I got to land over and over and over again (again, can't remember the card names). I was down to like 20 cards in my deck by the time of the loss, but all my good cards were in the graveyard, and he pulled Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker (possibly the most overpowered card I've seen yet). In the second game, pretty much the same thing happened, except he has an attacker or something that made me discard two every time I was hit along with a creature that was 5/5 with 10 or more cards in my graveyard. I had no way to win because everything I played was countered over and over again.
It was humiliating. Worst yet, I can't afford all those $10-20 cards because I live on a very fixed income. I don't have money to spend on tons of cards. I feel completely overwhelmed and discouraged. Pkaying against people like that sucks all the fun out of the game completely. I don't know what to do. Is there anything I can do to help this or is it just a matter of having hundreds of dollars to dump into the game? How can a Selesnya aggro deck stop a control deck?
Ohthenoises says... #3
Sigarda, Host of Herons with mana floating for Rootborn Defenses /Ready / Willing will mop the floor with control.
May 11, 2013 4:35 p.m.
I agree your deck is not focused on what you want to do and you lack consistency, drop the 1ofs and add 3-4 of's. Emmara sadly isn't really worth running in standard right now, but if you're going for a token thing, why no Parallel Lives ? The Smiter is one of the best G/W monsters for what it does. The Elixir is just a life saver in so many situations I always at least SB some.
May 11, 2013 4:46 p.m.
if you think Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker is overpowered, then your view of card-power is skewed.
Voice of Resurgence and Thragtusk are perfect against control.
May 11, 2013 5:12 p.m.
Well, that's not 100% true I have made a mill deck in the past that was so aggressive that it destroyed the Elixir, but then again Sword of Body and Mind was standard legal back then too lol
May 11, 2013 5:19 p.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #8
Dang, it'll be hard to gather those cards. Sigarda, Host of Herons looks totally awesome, but I doubt I have the money to get it. I couldn't find Parallel Lives or Growing Ranks when I was shopping, so that's the only reason I don't have those.
Just curious, though, why is Emmara Tandris not worth using? The goal of my deck is token swarm for massive damage, so isn't her effect that makes tokens effectively invincible a good choice? I haven't been able to get her out yet due to counters being used on me, but she seems solid, and is a pretty strong candidate for Rancor and Gift of Orzhova as well. I definitely need to drop the other expensive creatures, though. Anyway, that's just a curiosity. If I'm missing something that makes her not worth it, definitely point it out, because I'm not seeing a downside to her.
I'll try to look for some copies of those others and put more focus in. Thanks for the tips, they're greatly appreciated.
May 11, 2013 5:20 p.m.
Emmara Tandris is bad because by the time you have the mana to cast her, your opponent will either be dead using Supreme Verdict /Terminus . And she, herself, has no combat abilities.
Even Vigilance would make her just bad, and not horrible.
May 11, 2013 5:24 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #11
You could simply not play standard, it's more expensive, and hard to get into as everything keeps rotating out.
But if you wanna play standard just work on improving your deck, and especially your sideboard.
May 11, 2013 5:30 p.m.
CharonSquared says... #12
Some budget-friendly cards I would look at: Rancor , Selesnya Charm , Call of the Conclave , Avacyn's Pilgrim , Strangleroot Geist , Dryad Militant , Oblivion Ring , Fiend Hunter , Wolfir Avenger
And if you can afford 3-5 dollar cards, I'd recommend Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Sunpetal Grove , Frontline Medic , Loxodon Smiter , and more Wolfir Silverhearts and Advent of the Wurms.
May 11, 2013 10:17 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #13
Part of the reason you could not do anything was that your deck runs a ton of dependent cards. Chorus of Might , Mending touch , Predator's Rapport , Wake the Reflections , Gift of Orzhova , and Unflinching Courage all require you to have creatures in play to even DO anything; and with only 20 creatures, all of which are overcosted and fragile, most of your cards will be dead against control's suite of spot removal and sweepers. Just run more creatures like Loxodon Smiter and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben .
Oh, and run at least 24 lands. And get Sunpetal Grove s. No two-color deck can function without duals.
May 11, 2013 10:49 p.m.
Oblivion Ring and Fiend Hunter have always done work for me against control decks.
May 12, 2013 1:38 a.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #15
Okay I switched up the deck a little bit. I liked all the suggestions, but on my current budget, I'm unable to acquire a lot of those cards. They're on the acquire list. I want 2x Growing Ranks , 4x Loxodon Smiter , 2x Ready / Willing , and 4x Sunpetal Grove .
Not sure when I'll be able to get those cards, but I want them for sure. Any ideas which cards I should replace, though?
I've got a couple of Skylasher cards in there to use against Control, but I don't have the rest at the moment. I hope the new version can do better.
May 13, 2013 4:53 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #16
No Growing Ranks or Skylasher . Growing Ranks is, again, a card that does nothing without the right creatures. Skylasher is bad vs control because it is just a 2/2 that dies to Supreme Verdict and cannot pressure them effectively.
May 14, 2013 12:30 a.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #17
Protection from blue would protect Skylasher from Supreme Verdict because it's WU. If Yeva, Nature's Herald can allow you to summon WG creatures with flash because of its green, then certainly protection from blue does the same against any card with blue in it, shouldn't it? That's why it's such an expensive card I would think, and flying is nice.
I would think Growing Ranks is a must in any deck that calls a lot of tokens. Am I missing something again?
May 14, 2013 4:08 a.m.
Protection from Blue would not protect Skylasher from a Supreme Verdict .
Protection prevents the permanent from being "targeted by", "blocked by", or "receive damage from" anything with the characteristics its protected from. An untargeted "Destroy" would not be prevented.
May 14, 2013 7:54 a.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #19
Bringing this thread back to life because I'm having more trouble. My Balance in Nature deck has gone through many changes since I last posted here, and it'd done somewhat well. Tonight, though, I got absolutely slaughtered.
Ignoring the fact that, even though I'm running a deck worth nearly $150, I think I was up against $200-300 decks, that shouldn't matter because player skill should trump all. That's right, right? Anyway, check out the deck again and see for yourself that I've improved it.
My first loss tonight at a major FNM was against a pure Izzet burn/control deck. My creatures, mostly low cost, were fodder for removal cards. My Experiment One couldn't beef up enough, and my mana rampers were removed easily. Then I had to deal with multiple Guttersnipe . With two on the field, two Searing Spear on me killed me outright after a 4/4 flier did some damage I couldn't stop. I was helpless and lost 0-2.
Second match I lost only went one game because the clock ran down, and I lost 0-1. We both had Voice of Resurgence , and mine got beefier, but my opponent got too many turns with Sorin, Lord of Innistrad before I could kill him and was able to make several 5/5 demon fliers with a card I can't remember the name of. He was playing W/G/B. With a Gavony Township on the field, I was easily murdered around Turn 25 or 30 despite having at least 15 monsters on the field, all because of beefed up fliers.
Third match I basically lost, clock running down and we went 1-1. I was up against a four-color deck of W/U/B/G. The removal was insane. I couldn't keep a single card on the table. Between Fiend Hunter , Azorius Charm , Unsummon , and Oblivion Ring I was completely helpless. The lack of counterspells in Selesnya is hurting me really bad, but there's no room for any. Glaring Spotlight might help, but I'm not sure I can make room for it. Unflinching Courage is the only card that keeps me alive thanks to lifelink.
I had a meltdown and withdrew from the tournament after that. I consider myself a pretty good player, and I've spent a lot of time and money building this deck, but I can't seem to duplicate Craig Wescoe's Pro Tour win. I know I don't have the same deck, but it's somewhat close. Did Craig Wescoe just get really superemely lucky, or is Selesnya just really pitiful? I just can't figure out where I'm going wrong.
One other player told me to lower the land (get rid of the Selesnya Guildgate because those are pure crap cards and lower to 20) because I have so much mana ramp, but it makes me nervous. Is that actually a good move? Please help!
June 22, 2013 5:09 a.m.
Golden_Ladybug says... #20
That is a shame, but keep in mind that even going 0-3 doesn't necessarily mean your deck is bad; over my years of playing various card games, I've had similar situations happen to me over and over again, with decks that I was absolutely sure were good, or had proved their mettle at other tournaments. Sometimes you just run badly.
Now, to address Craig Wescoe's Pro Tour win, there are a few factors that differentiate your deck from his, beyond the price. The Dragon Maze Pro Tour was Ravnica block constructed, which limited the card pool available to the competitors quite significantly, as well as the power level of the event. He went into the Pro Tour knowing that he would only be facing a certain number of viable decks, and that those decks would not have access to a lot of the powerful options that Standard has. Wescoe was ready for the field, and would've tested a helluva lot against those decks to make sure he was ready. He was exceptionally positioned as a midrange deck, with the ability to spawn incredibly powerful tokens and resilient, powerful creatures at the top of a hat.
Coupled with years of Tournament experience, and its clear that he did not win the Pro Tour on pure luck. He chose what he thought was the best deck, he played extremely well and yes, he had that little bit of luck that is crucial, regardless of whether you started playing today or 20 years ago.
I'll go have a look at your deck and see if I can give any suggestions :)
June 22, 2013 8:19 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #21
The simple fact is, Selesnya isn't even a good deck in standard at the moment, and yours is a suboptimal and unfocused version of it. It's the sad truth, but in order to play a deck like this you need playsets of Voice of Resurgence and Temple Garden etc.
If you want to beat control, I would advise selling this deck and building Mono-Red, which is cheaper and more competitive. The only expensive cards are Boros Reckoner and Hellrider , whose cost can be covered by selling your expensive cards.
June 23, 2013 12:08 a.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #22
How, pray tell, is mine suboptimal? I refuse to believe that you need four Voice of Resurgence to be competitive in Selesnya. In addition, Sunpetal Grove is better than Temple Garden when there is no Farseek , and no tournament deck has room for that card.
I find it insulting that your advice is to basically sell the deck I've busted my ass working to build (since selling cards only nets half price anyway) and then build some cookie cutter deck with cards that any noob could win with. That's not how a champion plays.
June 23, 2013 12:30 a.m.
Oh boy. I'll help. Check out my deck, Return to Selesnya. I'll be writing a post on your deck.
June 23, 2013 12:53 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #24
The problem is that you want to win and you complain about losing, but you insist on running a suboptimal deck - and yes, it is suboptimal. It has a ton of one-ofs. Voice of Resurgence is so good it's a necessary 4-of. You also want Restoration Angel and Thragtusk . You want Temple Garden AND Sunpetal Grove . And I don't see how you can both complain incessantly about losing while refusing to look at alternatives that will help you win.
Also, Mono-Red is actually a very hard deck to play - certainly harder than this deck, which just plays a bunch of fatties and attacks with them. Sequencing creatures and burn spells, knowing when to attack, when to block, when to suicide guys for damage, when to burn their creature, and when to burn them is quite difficult.
June 23, 2013 3:05 a.m.
Farseek is extremely playable, actually, and almost every midrange/control deck that runs green runs a playset. Jund, etc
June 23, 2013 3:24 a.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #26
@detentionsphere: I do not have the money for a playset of Voice of Resurgence or I would be playing with them. Also, Restoration Angel and Thragtusk don't fit in my deck, literally nowhere to put them and they add nothing to the overall theme. It's mainly about tokens and getting creatures out quickly. A Zerg type of thing. I've been avoiding putting more high-drop creatures in for just that reason. I've tried to get more of Temple Garden , but no one will trade them away even though I have other shock lands to trade. I simple fact is that I don't have the cards and can't get the cards. I'm sure not going to build the deck around those two when M14 is less than a month away.
Voice of Resurgence I'm trying to get more of. The rest, well, I already traded away my Thragtusk (and several other cards) to get my first Voice of Resurgence . I'm actually trying to make my deck fairly close to Craig Wescoe's PTDGM deck as possible while keeping Wolfir Silverheart and Trostani, Selesnya's Voice in. I also want Garruk, Primal Hunter (or an M14 version if it's any good). That's the general idea, though.
The big thing is I can't put Selesnya Charm in with my local meta because it simply wouldn't see much use until after Parallel Lives is in play; Unflinching Courage and Rancor both do its +2/+2 ability better and without lasting only until end of turn. Until people in my meta start regularly popping the 5+ beasties on me, Selesnya Charm is fairly useless to me. I'm not dying by getting overwhelmed by things it could deal with. Usually, it's crap like Boros Reckoner , my creatures and spells getting removed outright, and burn spells, none of which Selesnya Charm does anything about. The lack of counterspells is killing me. Besides, what would I get rid of for them?
I just find it irritating that the best suggestions that people come up with requires spending another $50-150 on the deck when I've already spent a ton of money getting my collection started and have no fun money left.
Jimhawk says... #2
You need to play cards with stronger individual power and with maximum numbers for consistency. You really can't play Selesnya aggro without four Loxodon Smiter , for example. It can't be countered and puts a huge clock on the opponent. It's really quite affordable as well, as it's not a premier rare like Voice of Resurgence .
Your deck is also incredibly unfocused. You say this deck is an aggro deck but your deck is full of defensive spells and 7-drops. You should find what your goal with the deck is (aggro to kill quickly, midrange to dominate the battlefield, tokens to swarm your opponent) and pick cards that exclusively focus upon and support that strategy.
As for your concerns with specific cards, you should play several Oblivion Ring s for planeswalkers and universal removal and you should sideboard Elixir of Immortality or Witchbane Orb to defend against mill (the latter only being effective for targeted mill).
May 11, 2013 4:31 p.m.