How Many Lands Do I Need?
Deck Help forum
Posted on April 3, 2020, 10:28 a.m. by DemonDragonJ
In each of my two-colored decks, I have 28 lands out of 60 cards total, but I am wondering if that may be too many, at least for decks with lower mana curves.
For example, let me start by focusing on my red/white deck; that deck has a very low mana curve, so I am wondering if I can remove two lands from that deck to make room for two additional copies of Cerodon Yearling, which would obviously help with its focus on combat.
What does everyone else say about this? How many lands are necessary in a 60-card deck?
I would go down to 24 lands and put in 4 one drops. Your curve is a little top heavy in what I see of this deck as it feels more aggressive but doesn't start hitting until turn 3. decks should be hitting (unless your a control deck) turn 1, turn 2 at the latest.
In general to answer the underlying question of how many lands in a 60 card deck? It depends on the deck and the format. In my Modern Delver of Secrets Flip deck I run 18 lands, in my Modern Thing in the Ice Flip deck I run 19. In my Pauper Heroic deck I run 21 lands. On Arena my standard Control deck runs 24-26 lands (I am not on Arena at the moment to check for sure). So it depends on your decks average CMC and what it's trying to accomplish as a deck. Control is going into the late game and has bigger spells so you need more lands and can't afford to miss a land drop for the first 5-6 turns of the game so you need lots of lands and card draw to get you there. Agro decks want to hit the first two land drops and after that are done drawing lands and just want more damage to throw and your opponents face.
You just got to figure out what your deck wants to do, embrace it and then find if it's a 18 or 19 land deck (agro, or some combo that has low cmc) or if it's a 24-26 land deck (control or higher cmc combo). or some other variation.
April 3, 2020 10:48 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #4
sergiodelrio, Pervavita, that is most excellent advice, although I do think that I need to play with this deck before I decide what changes to make, since I would rather be mana flooded than mana screwed.
April 3, 2020 11:32 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #5
What about my red/blue deck? I would remove two lands from that deck to make room for two more copies of Bloodwater Entity, but that deck has a higher mana curve, so I am not certain if I should do that.
April 3, 2020 12:35 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #6
No problem. In that deck, the 3 land spot is key, because that's most of your spells. Can easily go down to 24 lands
April 3, 2020 12:41 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
You need a maximum of 24 lands in a 60 card deck unless there is a very good reason to run more. Lower curve decks run better with 20 or even down to 18 in extreme cases.
April 3, 2020 1:33 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #8
Gidgetimer, that is rather extreme for my liking, as there is too great a chance that I may not have sufficient lands to cast all of my spells.
April 3, 2020 5:04 p.m.
He was meaning 18 on low curve decks, 2-3 cmc average decks for example.
April 3, 2020 5:38 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
I realize that it is extreme for your liking. I was one of the people telling you to drop your 60 card decks to a maximum of 24 lands a few weeks ago when you were asking for help cutting cards. This particular deck I would start testing with 22 lands.
Your mana curve peaks at 3, so you ideally are going to be focussed on 3 lands by turn 3. I found a CFB article about land drop consistency. 22 lands gives you a 90.5% chance to have 3-by-3 on the draw or 84.7% on the play. Compared to 97.1/94.2 with 28 lands. If we look at how the article describes flooding (seeing 8 lands by turn 7 on the draw) 22 lands floods 7.3% of the time and 28 floods 26.8% of the time. Adding the average of the two screw scenarios with the flood number gives us a bad mana percentage of 19.7% for 22 lands and 31.1% for 28 lands.
The decks I am talking about that can run 18 lands because their curve is so low are the ones running play sets each of Monastery Swiftspear, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Goblin Guide and then 30 functional reprints of Lightning Bolt. Decks with average CMCs under 1.5.
April 3, 2020 7:46 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #11
DemonDragonJ gonna tell you a dirty little deckbuilding secret of mine: when you're using more than 20 lands and only play 1-2 colors in Modern (or other formats the cards are legal in), have land 21-2X be 1-mana cycling lands. In this case Forgotten Cave. This smoothens your mana curve by preventing both land screw early game (giving you a bonus T1 play) and late game mana flood. Enjoy ;)
April 4, 2020 1:47 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #12
Gidgetimer from my personal experience, having played a good amount of low curve decks, I can confidently say that cutting below 19 lands is gonna give you a bad time more often than not. I can only see sub 19 lands in very specific corner cases, where your deck has free draws T1 ala Street Wraith or Once Upon a Time virtually thinning your deck, and even then it's sketchy if your're playing more than 2 colors. The most important thing is for the pilot to feel comfortable playing the deck, so that they can have fun playing it. But again, that's just my personal opinion
April 4, 2020 1:59 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
There are plenty of legacy decks that commonly run 18 or less. You don't need free turn 1 draws, you just need to be able to consistently execute your game plan on 2 mana. I said "as little as 18 in extreme cases". I'm not saying that it is likely that the average player will ever create a deck that requires that few. I am saying that there are decks that can function on that few. With the existence of Manaless Dredge and Oops All Spells I feel that the statement "as little as 0 in extreme cases" would even be accurate. They are after all multiple cases and at the extreme end.
April 4, 2020 8:54 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #14
Should have mentioned I only play Modern and Pauper. Yes, older formats are beyond good and evil when it comes to that.
sergiodelrio says... #2
Definitely too many. Your highest cmc is 5, so I think 24-25 lands is ok. However, imho, the much bigger problem here is that you're wasting your first turn (and no, you shouldn't be pathing on T1). I'd advise that you find at the very least 8 cards that give you some action on T1. Your Wear/Tears belong in the Sideboard
Cheers
April 3, 2020 10:42 a.m.