Last try at playing standard
Deck Help forum
Posted on March 27, 2013, 8:39 a.m. by Azure124
I'm really tired of $400 un-fun decks being the only decks being able to win tournaments. I decided to make a deck able to outrush some of the faster decks in the meta but spend under $40 on it Dryad or bust is my deck and hopefully will re-ignite my desire to play standard.
biggest issue is its tough to win with out the shock and dual lands
March 27, 2013 9:43 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #4
No, the biggest issue is people netdecking PTG/Grand Prix decks, for an FNM. If it weren't for this, I"m sure half the expensive cards out there wouldn't be that expensive if this wasn't done. FNM is considered a casual tournament compared to other big event tournaments. Why must you bring a deck that is meant for a PTQ, to an FNM?
I think some people just need their egos filled to the max. They have this urge to completely crush the shit out of everyone in their way, thus forcing others to repeat the process JUST to have fun. If people stopped netdecking, I'm sure standard would be more fun.
If you use a budget deck and win, or even beat an expensive deck, be proud and happy.
March 27, 2013 10:37 a.m.
well...yeah i guess that pretty much sums it up. best of luck to you.
March 27, 2013 11:07 a.m.
FNM is a good place to learn a net deck and get good with it before you go play a tournament where the entry fee is $25-$50.
March 27, 2013 11:39 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #7
Not really. People want to have fun and compete. It's unavoidable. People will be competitive. However, you don't have to have a deck that is going to crush someone to the point of not playing.
It is this kind of thing that are making people turn away from standard. I'm not talking about the people who make a PTQ deck, I'm talking about the HUNDREDS of people who COPY that deck, knowing it's meant for PTQ, and bringing it to FNM just so they can "win". Yeah, real awesome. You took a deck meant for a high stakes tournament to a place where people want to have fun when they compete, just to win some store credit. Kudos to you. I consider these kind of people under one word. Jackass.
I'll continue this rant/logic sense making when I get back home.
March 27, 2013 11:46 a.m.
FNM is a once / week event where many of your opponents are using a faux netdeck (net deck that is usually missing key cards), or using their own style deck to see if they can have some fun with it...
How does playing agains sub-par decks help in any way to determine if your net-deck is going to be competitive at the next level...? It would be like a college football team playing against a grade school elective team. Nothing is gained by either side, except that the grade school class is now humiliated, and the college team can stroke their ego.
Just like the college team needing practices, and games against other college teams; practicing your deck against other decks that will be expected in the tournament is the only way to tell if your deck is ready, or to improve your skills with that deck.
FNM does nothing for pro players abilities.
March 27, 2013 11:54 a.m.
Also note: Most of the players who net-deck for FNM are are only there for FNM. Very few of those are intending of going to PTQ's with those decks... the few that are going to PTQ's would likely agree that FNM is not the best place to practice.
March 27, 2013 11:58 a.m.
Your football comparison would be more like comparing a net deck in a standard pauper tournament, but I find it funny that you take enjoyment from watching 5-10 year olds getting destroyed by adults. Like any tournament there is going to be some level of competitiveness present. (keeping with football comparisons) Lets say FNM is an amateur football game, you pay your way in and it's bring your own gear, are you going to join the game wearing the paper mache cup and pads, or would you instead by some real gear?
By practice I didn't mean learning the levels of play you'd run into at a large event, I meant practice to the point of knowing the deck well. Also are you implying that one who only has time to play FNM can't ever have fun with a net deck because they're too good against those who run decks built from a single fat pack? Are you saying Rayenous, that people should feel like complete dicks if they beat you because they didn't go by your budget only standards, isn't that in some way being a dick yourself?
March 27, 2013 12:13 p.m.
See, I only ever play the modern FNMs when I'm playing constructed, so everyone uses a netdeck in one way or another... I guess nobody really cares. My Scapeshift deck is definitely to be considered a netdeck with minor variation for the meta, but I'm hard pressed to find it against the pseudo-morals of FNM when everyone is doing the same thing.
Except the Gruul infect guy who never wins.
March 27, 2013 12:32 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #13
Demarge, you are saying that, for a casual styled tournament, you need to spend $400-$500 on a deck? That seems a bit excessive for casualness. Yes people will be competitive, but you don't need to have your deck built for a competitive environment. I build casual decks, not really meant for tournament play, but my playstyle is STILL competitive. I shouldn't have to spend 400$ just to go to a tournament and have fun.
FNM shouldn't be a "who's got more money" tournament. When it becomes more about money and less about gameplay, then there is no fun in it, except for the egotistical bastard who thought that he has some higher power cause his 400$ deck annihilated a 75-100$ deck. Congrats, you just won a game equivalent of a human fighting a slug. REEEAAAALLLLL challenging.
March 27, 2013 12:44 p.m.
Please don't put words into peoples mouths. - NO! I am NOT implying that "one who only has time to play FNM can't ever have fun with a net deck", that is something you are making up, and I never stated. - and NO! I am not saying "people should feel like complete dicks if they beat you because they didn't go by your budget only standards"... I didn't mention ANYTHING about budget. You seem to be under the assumption that budget is the only concern.
What I did say was ONLY to state that players who want to practice for PTQ, are in the wrong place if they use FNM for their practice. - They get nothing out of it but to crush those who are't planning on going to PTQ. - If this is you, please feel free to use FNM for this... good luck getting better, because all you'll see is that you crushed decks that you won't play against at the PTQ's.
March 27, 2013 1:03 p.m.
I think everyone here is forgetting what the point of FNM is.
Friday Night Magic is a competitive tournament, complete with entry fee, Swiss pairing structure, and prizes. It is NOT casual. It is more casual than a 5K or a PTQ, but it is by no means casual. To assume otherwise is incorrect.
That said, FNM varies from place to place. My LGS is comprised of a few PTQ and GP grinders, some amateur competitive players that play in GPTs and 5Ks (this is my category), a few players who are competitive but only at FNMs, and then some random other people. About 70% of the people play a Tier 1 or Tier 2 netdeck, while 25% play very viable homebrews (my category!) and 5% play actual jank. FNM is quite competitive there, although less so than a LGS where a pro player attends and extremely more so than a LGS where mostly 17-year-olds and less play.
The point I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't try to fit FNM to your expectations of what it should be. Acknowledge what it is, then approach it in a meaningful way. If you want to change it, find a way to consistently beat top decks with a cheap homebrew. It's not impossible, trust me. It's very difficult and will push your deckbuilding and play skills to the maximum, but who wouldn't want that?
Finally, for the record, FNM has been extremely helpful for me in my limited success in larger tournaments. I would never have known how to improve my deck without that experience. Even playing weak decks or unskilled opponents helps you understand how punishing your deck can be if your opponent stumbles or does nothing meaningful during the course of the game (this can happen sometimes at tournaments!).
Getting back on topic, I think the deck should include Invisible Stalker as well. It plays well with your pump enchantments and is extremely good with Hands of Binding . Besides, you need more than 8 creatures if you want to win this way, because with 8, you will only draw one per game on average, making all your pump very bad. I would replace the 3 Alpha Authority and take out one Searing Spear for 4 Invisible Stalker .
March 27, 2013 2:09 p.m.
CrimsonKing says... #16
If you know what decks you're going to be up against doesn't that give you a better shot at winning? I've won a few FNM's recently with a few of my homebrew decks. Just because someone has a net deck doesn't mean they're unbeatable. Build your deck with a solid game plan and stick with it. Most casual players tend to build decks that are all over the place and don't expect to lose. Get better at the game and pay attention to your metagame. Create a sideboard that strengthens your deck against decks it's weak against.
March 27, 2013 3:02 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #17
I would like to point out that I said it is a more casual tournament, and it is definitely not a "free entry". No prize giving tournament has a free entry and if it does, please inform me of this free tournament with prizes place so I may attend.
Back to what I was saying, an FNM on average is just a small tournament held by an LGS for Magic players. It is not a huge tournament involving big prizes. It's not like you are some huge awesome Magic player if you take first at an FNM, unlike a PTQ or a Grand Prix.
The original point was that standard is unfun because of all the netdecking, which people are taking decks from PTQ/Grand Prix level, just to win a simple FNM. How is that fair for those who can't afford to build a 400$ deck? Standard is supposed to be one of the cheapest formats, esp compared to Modern and Legacy., yet we have to spend Modern worthy money just to play. The point was more around netdecking decks for high stakes tournaments and only bringing them to a low stakes tournament just to have the mightier than thou feeling when you just rape some dude's deck, cause he can't afford 3 playsets of shocks and duals, Thrags, Restos, etc.
March 27, 2013 3:06 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #18
I agree with the point abouts the competition. It is a paid competitive tournament.
I play standard/casual a lot. I'm not a tournament player. Sometimes my decks get pricey, sometimes they do not. BUT I ALWAYS HAVE FUN because i'm not regretting any money I sink into it.
March 27, 2013 3:25 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon, did you ever consider that some people have fun when they cast Thragtusk
off their Stomping Ground
? Just because you don't think it's fun to have it cast against you doesn't mean they don't have fun casting it. It's not like your opponent is obligated to play something that makes sure you have fun or that you have a chance at winning.
I, for one, enjoy the challenge of beating strong decks because it validates my own deckbuilding skills that much more. I think the current Standard format is plenty of fun, much more so than when Delver or Caw-Blade made up 70%+ of the field. You could play just about anything right now and do well, as long as you can answer the top decks.
March 27, 2013 5:27 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #20
I did not say that whatsoever. I simply stated taking a PTQ deck off the internet and using it at an FNM just so you can earn free packs or store credit (which you obviously don't ened if you have the cash to shell out about 400$ worth of cards), and crush the hopes of every other player just trying to have fun. I've beaten Thrag, I've even taken a shitty deck and manage to stall out and shut down a control deck. My point being is that newer players either have to netdeck as well, for decks out of their price range, or just simply don't play. Not my idea of a warm welcome to the format, or even the game for that matter.
March 27, 2013 5:52 p.m.
Newer players can play for the enjoyment of playing the game competitively, I remember my first FNM as an event where I got pummeled, did I think "this sucks, I just can't win..." no I though the challenge to be fun (this was standard during Caw blade btw) and in just 4 weeks I was able to top 8, another two weeks I was able to top 4. In short a new player should expect a tournament to be a challenge UmbrotheUmbreon, one can't expect to just waltz into their first few FNM's and expect to be playing on the same level, the game would be boring that way and competitive mtg probably wouldn't be for that person. As for not needing the credit or packs for mtg if you already own a good deck doesn't make sense It's almost like saying because you bought a good steak dinner you no longer need food, A good deck in Standard is only going to be good for a while, not indefinitely.
March 27, 2013 7:30 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #22
You people clearly have no idea what the fuck I'm trying to say
PTQ DECK WAS BUILT FOR PTQ LEVEL
FNM IS A LOWER LEVEL THAN PTQ
NETDECK A PTQ DECK AND TAKE IT TO FNM ONLY
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM NOW!? I DON'T WANT TO GO AGAINST A DECK DESIGNED FOR HIGH TOURNAMENTS, WHEN THE TOURNAMENT I'M PLAYING ISN'T A HUGE DEAL.
March 27, 2013 7:38 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #23
uh oh spaghetto's. the internet happened again. and in all capitals.
March 27, 2013 7:47 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Can we not go through this mess again?
A tournament is a tournament. Whether FNM or Pro Tour, players who enter a tournament do so at their own discretion. There's no code that says you can't enter FNM with a netdeck. Players are free to build whatever deck they like; the only stipulations are the deck construction rules of the format.
If you are mad that other players can and do build more expensive or more powerful decks, tough. That's how tournaments work. Players are given the choice to enter them, and that choice is their own. Players are driven to win, and that means some will build the most powerful decks they can. If you don't like that, you can play casually or accept the fact that this behavior comes with the tournament environment.
I'm done panning through drama for today. Be civil or be gone.
March 27, 2013 8:01 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #25
Epoch is something on your nerves, beside this? I"m just trying to state my reasons for why Standard is becoming unfun to players, and people keep misinterpretting what I say, so it gets to the point where I have to be uncivil about it.
Nothing I said suggests at all that people can't enter these decks, it's just annoying when they do cause the power level is unreasonable.
PTQ deck = god
FNM deck on average = peasant.
Netdeck a PTQ and bring it against FNM decks. God vs Peasant. Who's gonna win?
March 27, 2013 8:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
Not really, but fires seem to be popping up everywhere in the last few hours, and I don't want to see drama over anything on this site. It's not worth it. Different opinions are fine, but let's debate them rather than shout about them. You don't need to be uncivil about anything; try wording your argument differently or changing the scope to more accurately reflect your position.
Two points about your argument:
It's unreasonable to assume that PTQ decks absolutely outclass FNM decks in terms of power. The strength of a deck is based on the competence of the player designing it, and ultimately upon the competence of the player piloting it. Netdecks will often be powerful, but FNM decks can and often are competitive.
It can be annoying when people bring netdecks to FNM because not everyone has the resources to build with the top-dollar format staples, and not everyone has the time to follow the format religiously for developments. However, FNM is a competition, and you need to accept that people will be competitive at least part of the time. It's part of the tournament and therefore part of the game.
March 27, 2013 8:11 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #28
I worded my statements about 3-5 different times. Nobody seemed to understand, so I lost my patience and ended up shouting. Human tolerance only goes so far dude =/
While that is true, it doesn't make it fair or right, for those who are there to just enjoy the game and have fun. Yes I understand you want to win, but standard is basically a "either have money or don't play" format, and sadly that will dwindle standard down more than it is already. I know at my LGS we don't really have a whole lot of standard players. It's mostly draft players (FNM Standard and Draft are done in the same night).
Oh I understand, but be competitive with your creativity and your deck building skills, not your stupid wallet. That's all Magic is becoming in the competitive (and slowly creeping into the casual part too) environment. Who has the bigger wallet. While it does take skill to navigate a netdeck, it doesn't take skill to netdeck, then read how to use it.
March 27, 2013 8:19 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #29
Magic: tG has always been that way about $$$.
I have played this game since 1994 and even back then, playing games with the kids who hung out at the baseball card shop. The kids who had the richest parents could afford to buy the rare powerful cards and power up their decks.
Netdecking is newer because of the internet, but power cards are power cards and to play competitively you have to buy in and go for broke.
Literally.
March 27, 2013 8:23 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
You can certainly advocate that people should be more creative and spend less money, but the decision is ultimately on the individual player. I don't think it's necessarily logical to argue that people should come up with their own decks or spend less money when they're entering an event. The game evolves because of competition.
In a casual sphere, I do agree that the focus should lean more toward fun and creativity. However, rules that apply to the casual environment cannot be generalized to any level of competition, even FNM.
March 27, 2013 8:31 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #31
It's just lame and it's why people are losing interest in competitive play. There is no fun to it anymore unless you have an ego that needs to be fulfilled.
March 27, 2013 8:31 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #32
I believe the player base is actually expanding, especially with Modern now an FNM-sanctioned format. People get burned out on Magic just like they get burned out on Call or Duty or Halo or sports. Sometimes it's necessary to take a break. Other times the environment just isn't the same as the one that got you into the game at first. Regardless, it's a reality of competition. Could FNMs be better in terms of atmosphere? Absolutely. Is it going to change? Probably not. People, especially a good portion of Magic players, are inherently competitive, and while those individuals relish the tournament environment, others don't. Casual still exists, and breaks can be rejuvenating. It's all about finding a balance.
Sometimes it's the player, not the deck, that causes problems. I find that to be the more likely situation. Every once in a while, a player will show up that looks down on other players no matter what they do or play. In that case, it's best to let that player know through your reactions to him or her that his or her attitude is negatively affecting the rest of the players.
March 27, 2013 8:37 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #33
the local FNM nearby where I live is thriving more than ever over the last two years. it expanded from maybe 10-15 people to now over 70.
I agree that it does burn people out, but MtG seems to be getting more and more popular lately.
I even see boyfriends and girlfriends hanging out playing each other at coffee shops and bars now.
It's a game on the rise. Despite many solid arguments that could support it imploding.
March 27, 2013 8:40 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #34
I guess I"m just in an aggravated state of mind. I just hate shit right now. I know it's no excuse to take out on the community, but I go to FNM, and even when I play well, people have to be like "You shouldn't run that stuff, it's not fast enough" or "Dude where is the [card], [card], [card]? You can't build this deck unless you have these cards" and it's infuriating cause they name cards I can't afford, or cards I don't have/can get. No one ever gives me credit for bringing a unique deck to the table, does somewhat well considering it's going against 300-400$ decks, and even worse some put me down for it.
March 27, 2013 8:45 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #35
Yeah. That's because it's a competitive environment.
Maybe try to walk around an FNM event and see what people are playing and make some connections for the people who are there playing "uncompetitive" decks for fun.
I know I took my R/U/B control deck to FNM a week ago knowing I would get smashed. I ended up going .500 alternating between 0-2 matches and 2-0 matches.
But the highlight of my night was playing against a deck I had no answers for that was smashing my face in and he had just blown up Garruk and turn him into 8 6/6 wurm tokens and was going to come at my face with a million damage and I drew Devastation Tide
as a top deck. I held the card aloft like a sword and yelled "it's a miracle" and then cast it for 2 mana. He was bummed, but only for an extra 5 turns it took him to play enough creatures to overwhelm me.
So my moment was short lived, but I did experience a minor miracle and it was a brief moment of fun I injected.
The bottom line is just have fun, and if you can't try to meet people and create a casual group that meets up frequently to play.
I have a group of guys that have been meeting up for about 3 years running now. It is great and we play casual but occasionally we get full of ourselves and think we can roll with the FNM crowd and then we come back home with our tails between our legs, drink some whiskey and lick our wounds.
If you find the right environment to play in you will thrive.
March 27, 2013 8:53 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #36
I go there to have fun, but people don't seem to acknowledge that =/ I literally say "I'm not being competitive cause I don't have the money, I come here for fun and socialization". Apparently these "mysterious things" don't exist in the world. It pisses me off.
March 27, 2013 8:56 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #37
Well this site has a map pinning thing that can show you where other players are. Maybe network out through here first?
March 27, 2013 9 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #38
I made a friend or two from FNM, but we don't really have a planned schedule =/
March 27, 2013 9:03 p.m.
I have played magic for a while and got into standard competitive enviorment last block when a 150-200 dollar deck would be able to win without much trouble. Now that i can't shell out for shocks and other staples it is not the same game i walked into, I want to play in a meta where there is a chance for every deck to be fun. Next set might bring me back in but i am just tired of this standard.
March 27, 2013 9:59 p.m.
Quite frankly, I just stick with the group who plays at my school. Sure there're a few who have hundreds of dollars in their decks, but they usually have other decks they'll play if you ask them. The casual setup allows for more laughs, and with any luck I can jump into a commander or archenemy game, which always end with shenanigans.
March 27, 2013 10:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #41
It sounds like your problem is with the players themselves rather than any inherent problem with netdecking or expensive cards. A good person (not just a good player) recognizes that his or her opponent has different circumstances and may not be able to make certain design choices or may not see certain play choices. The problem arises when you run into the holier-than-thou players who think either everyone has unlimited resources or everyone without unlimited resources is a lesser player. Though these players often do netdeck and play with format staples, the correlation doesn't really work in reverse.
March 27, 2013 10:14 p.m.
I've said it before but it bears repeating.
One of Magic's best feature, if not it's best, is that it can mean a myriad of different games for different folks. Some people like to brew decks : others like to try every deck. Some folks play casually at the kitchen table, I Hop or casual nights at their LGS : others are being streamed for thousands as they play in a Pro-Tour. One person likes playing with all their old cards : another likes a rotating meta with new challenges. For everyone that likes a really competitive 1v1 game : there's another that enjoys a laid back match of EDH to just see who can do the silliest and broken combos.
None of these people are playing the game incorrectly, and what's often the problem in these discussions is the air of superiority hanging from either side. The "oh mommie/daddy bought you your net-deck" attitude is no more beneficial to the game than the sneering at running a "sub-optimal" deck. Everyone is allowed to enjoy the game in their own way as long as they are abiding by the rules.
Also, it's worth noting that a lot of the support in/around Magic we've come to expect, promo cards/mats, prereleases, pro-tours, etc, all comes off of the rotation and expansion of Standard. WOTC doesn't make money when I trade cards in with my LGS to get a playset for some modern deck, it all comes from new packs getting opened. The expansion, support and growth of the Magic scene that we've seen wouldn't be possible if everyone was running their ~$50 FNM decks.
March 27, 2013 10:25 p.m.
Sidneyious says... #43
UmbrotheUmbreon I am in agreement with you 100% and that is why I hate fnm, it is supposed to be a casual setting with tournament flavor.
which is why if I am going to spend 600+$ a year on cards i might as well do it for something that is important like legacy.
FNM T2 is a joke and a waste of time and money.
March 27, 2013 10:30 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #44
FNM has something for everyone. If you don't like netdecking, don't. Go, play, have fun, and lose. Remember, FNM HAS PRIZES. Just because people play to win those prizes doesn't mean you should get mad at them. If you want to win, netdeck. If you want to play on a budget and win, play casually. It's that simple. No need to get angry at people who like different things than you
March 27, 2013 11:21 p.m.
I agree with you. When all you play is a 500 dollar Jace or thragtusk deck, against local players, every week when all you want to do is take your original deck you made yourself, spending your time, energy and money on to see how good it is, sucks. It takes ALOT of fun out of the game. Whoopdee frigging doo, so you can copy someone else's deck that won from a tournament. Tell me, what you actually did? My 5 and 7 year Olds can copy people. What can YOU do? Fortunately I've never even looked up a netdeck to compete with, because for me building a deck that will beat out the best is part of the fun. Imagine their face when you beat their net deck with cards you put together yourself or the sense of accomplishment you'll get when you do.
How bout checking out some of my decks?
hort, plagiarism isn't your work its you being too lazy to do the work yourself.
March 27, 2013 11:50 p.m.
Money isn't the problem for me its the lack of creativity in my meta when last week i played naya blitz three times and naya humans the other time. I can tell these people can't build their own deck by when they draft the people that will do well with their netdeck will get crushed by people that can actually build a deck. as epoch said it is mostly a problem with the players but they are the only players i can play t2 with.
March 28, 2013 8:18 a.m.
Well either way, your not gonna win this. People who can afford these kinds of cards and decks are going to play them. Plagiarists don't care they they want cards. Though what they don't realize is spending 500 on a deck kinda defeats the purpose of winning a couple boosters at fnm. Because there are so many other netdecks out there. You may or may not get a return on that investment. On the other hand if someone handed me a deck like that and said go play this, can't say id decline. Would you?
March 28, 2013 9:25 a.m.
skillfulabbot says... #49
Wow. FNMs at my shop are free. So are the Saturday and Sunday tournaments. I didn't know there were places that charged an entry fee. That's interesting.
My shop is lucky to get 5 people together for any of the tourneys on any given day though.
March 28, 2013 10:04 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #50
Yeah. The place I go in Seattle has 40-70 people at FNM
DarkHero says... #2
actually looks pretty good. I would suggest Invisible Stalker , Fog
March 27, 2013 9:42 a.m.