[Standard] Help on my unusual Jund deck
Deck Help forum
Posted on March 18, 2013, 4:11 p.m. by meecht
I could use input on my deck, Not Your Momma's Jund. I guess you could call it Jund Control?
The idea is to use kill spells and highly resilient creatures to control the board. I only attack when my opponent can't block, and I never leave myself without a blocker.
Your typical Jund creatures won't work because they aren't very good blockers. Thragtusk gives 5 life on entry, but can only really block twice. Huntmaster of the Fells Flip just isn't resilient enough because his main side is too weak to block. Thundermaw Hellkite just doesn't fit in a control deck.
The creature that DOES fit, though, is Olivia Voldaren. She may not be a good blocker, but she's a fairly effective kill spell on a stick. Her second ability fits, too, because my opponent can't attack with creatures they no longer control.
Kessig Wolf Run fits, too, because it can pump any creature to be an offensive beater, or a defensive menace. The cheap regenerate on Lotleth Troll and Wolfir Avenger makes it hard for any creature to kill them, and the pump from Kessig means my opponent's creature will still die.
I think you have Jund Midrange on your hands. You have all the cards for it, by the looks of it. You would just have to move a few things around, namely Mutilate. If you approach your deck as Midrange instead of Control, you'll have more success.
March 20, 2013 2:07 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #4
I'm sorry, but while I think that the concept of Jund with a bunch of regenerating blockers is cool, not running Huntmaster of the Fells Flip and Thragtusk is just wrong. Thragtusk is one of the best blockers in the format, since gaining 5 life is almost like blocking something, and with the size of both creatures he produces he is almost guaranteed to block and kill two creatures. Huntmaster comes down early, gains some life, and makes an expendable body, then can flip back and forth and kill some things while making more life and blockers
March 20, 2013 2:12 a.m.
Turning it into midrange by adding Huntmaster of the Fells Flip and Thragtusk turns the deck a carbon-copy of every other Jund deck made during the current rotation. I'm trying for a different take on Jund.
Let's say Thragtusk essentially blocks 3 times, due to the life gain. The 3/3 beast can kill most things, but wouldn't a 3/3 regenerating beast like Wolfir Avenger be even better? You gain 5 life once when Thragtusk ETBs, but Vampire Nighthawk can gain you more than that over the course of a few turns.
The problem with Huntmaster is that he HAS to flip back and forth in order to be effective. If he doesn't flip, he's useless because he and his 2/2 wolf will die while leaving most attacking creatures alive.
I don't expect the deck to win me PTQs, but I hope it can at least make a splash at my FNM.
March 20, 2013 8:41 a.m.
@meecht: Unfortunately, that's just how standard is. Huntmaster of the Fells Flip, Thragtusk, and Falkenrath Aristocrat are just too strong for anything else to compare.
Huntmaster of the Fells Flip is worth his weight in power/toughness for his mana cost. You're essentially getting a 4/4 that gives two life for four mana that has the potential to get bigger. He doesn't even have to flip.
Thragtusk has five power, putting your opponent on a four turn clock. They have to get rid of it as soon as possible. This often results in two-for-one trades, where they do things like block Thragtusk, lose a creature, then Ultimate Price the token.
Lastly, have you tried using Dreg Mangler? He's boss in Jund and wrecks havoc for control players. Plus, he's a safe discard for Lotleth Troll, since you can just scavenge him.
March 20, 2013 7:28 p.m.
I don't doubt their overall power. I doubt their usefulness in a deck based on control. You wouldn't put Thundermaw Hellkite in a spell-heavy Izzet deck because he doesn't fit what the deck is trying to do.
I have tried Dreg Mangler, but he encouraged me to be more offensive than defensive. After he hits the field, he's just a 3/3 and the scavenge is outweighed by the usefulness of Nighthawk and Avenger. I wish scavenge was instant speed, but I guess that would turn it into Bloodrush.
March 20, 2013 11:05 p.m.
But see that's the thing, I don't think you have a control deck, it feels more like midrange with lots of removal. You have more creatures than you do removal, counterspells, or hand disruption. Even then, you'd still want Thragtusk in a control deck with green because he's a complete brick wall against aggro.
March 21, 2013 12:12 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #9
While the idea of taking Jund in a control direction instead of midrange is interesting, I think there are two problems with this as well:
Running a bunch of creatures in a control deck is wrong. With control you want to play early spot removal/card draw into Wrath into more card draw into a finisher; right now, the cards aren't available in Jund to do this. Playing regen blocker into regen blocker gets beaten by fliers like Restoration Angel and Thundermaw Hellkite and loses to Terminus.
You can't really run control right now without Sphinx's Revelation. The only ways slower decks can beat Sphinx's are by playing the card itself, playing midrange with a bunch of value creatures like Tusk and Huntmaster, or playing combo (Humanimator).
So the conclusion: First, Jund isn't suited for control right now. Jund's place is either as aggro (Experiment Jund) or as midrange. Second, Jund can't beat Sphinx's Revelation without playing Thragtusk or Huntmaster of the Fells
Flip.
Now, don't take this wrong. If you want to play the deck you have now, fine. It looks fun and can probably do well at FNM. But you asked for advice and I've told you what I think is correct.
March 21, 2013 2:41 a.m.
I could be wrong in considering it control.
I'm going for Rock (which is typically just G/B) and splashing a little red. The purpose of Rock is to use hard-to-kill creatures and removal to create a wall against your opponent's attacks. Hand disruption is usually included, but there isn't anything good in G/B so I had to splash red for Rakdos's Return, which caused Olivia to come in, too.
Rock sounded like a creature-based control, so that's what I began to call it.
March 21, 2013 7:30 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #11
Hmmm I see. However you're contradicting yourself; you're saying you want hard-to-kill creatures, and that's exactly what Thragtusk is. Thragtusk is way better than Wolfir Silverheart in a defensive deck. Silverheart is played in aggressive decks like GW aggro that don't want Thrag. Specifically I'd do -2 Silverheart -1 Liliana (terrible card) -1 Mutilate (kills all your regen guys), +4 Thragtusk. Depending on what you want I might also cut the final 2 Mutilates and 2 Tragic Slip for 4 Deathrite Shamans
March 22, 2013 2:40 a.m.
Removing all my Mutilates will leave me without a sweeper. If anything, I've been considering swapping it out for Mizzium Mortars because it's a sweeper my regen creatures can survive while also acting as spot removal.
There are too many 2/2 creatures running around for Deathrite Shaman to be an effective blocker. If he was a 2/1 then he could at least trade with a creature. However, his abilities are useful and might make a good sideboard as a 2-of against control and reanimator.
I'm starting to come around to the idea of Thragtusk. He's not exactly a good blocker because he'll trade with more creatures, but he is a sponge for removal by requiring 2 spells to effectively kill, and that's two spells not being used on my other creatures. I liked the idea of Wolfir Silverheart to turn any creature into a big blocker or offensive threat, but a single removal spell negates that effect.
If I swap Mutilate for Mizzium Mortars, I would rather drop a Dreadbore to make room for the Thragtusks.
How about replacing Liliana with Vraska the Unseen? Vraska's ultimate is pretty crappy for me as I have no way to protect the tokens (outside of Golgari Charm and Sheltering Word in the sideboard), but her +1 and -3 abilities seem to fit in perfectly. A blasphemous suggestion would be to drop a single Thragtusk for her.
I've changed the deck a bit to add Thragtusk. The curve shows 18 two-drop spells, but they are spells that remain effective past turn 2 so I don't think it's a problem.
March 22, 2013 9:29 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #13
Mizzium Mortars is definitely a great idea. Your updated removal suite seems pretty perfect, except for the Tragic Slip. I've never tested them so I'd be curious to hear how they have been doing for you. As to Vraska, I think she definitely has merit as a top-of-the-curve finisher. I think the question is; is she better than Big Garruk? I don't think either is much better than the other, so it's your choice. All in all I really like your updated list. It seems like a fun twist on an established archetype that could do very well. I do worry about your control matchup though. Devour Flesh, Detention Sphere, and Terminus really seem to screw up your regenerators. How have the control matchups been going (Esper specifically)?
March 22, 2013 5:15 p.m.
So far, I've gone 1-2 against Aristocrats, and 0-2 against Mono-red. I'm having a hard time drawing the cards I need, when I need them.
I'm considering trading out Tragic Slip for Auger Spree .
Surprisingly, Zealous Conscripts has been a big player against me. I even sided in both Sheltering Word , but I could never draw them.
March 22, 2013 8:54 p.m.
Game 3 I went 1-2 against Br zombies, but he gave me the win, anyway. I just couldn't draw enough removal to keep up with all the zombies. Blood Artist also made it tough to remove anything.
Game 4 was 1-2 against a friend running a WRU deck with Guttersnipe , Boros Reckoner , Hellrider , and Blind Obedience . From what I could tell, he included blue just for Temporal Mastery . Again, bad draws and openers dragged me down.
I'm thinking I should squeeze in a couple Sign in Blood or mainboard a Staff of Nin to help with card draw. My biggest problem seems to be drawing what I need.
March 23, 2013 12:32 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #16
I wouldn't run Auger Spree , but I would instead replace the Slips with the 4th Abrupt Decay and a Devour Flesh . And I think your lackluster results against aggro are, yes, the result of a lack of Huntmasters. See, the thing is, your regenerators are soft to stuff that just goes over the top (Falkenrath Aristocrat ) or stuff that burns your guys before you untap with them (mono red). Huntmaster gains you some much-needed life, puts 4 power on the table that is resilient to spot removal, and threatens to flip and shoot your opponent's guys. Sign in Blood seems like a decent idea if your manabase can afford it. Probably replace 1 Mizzium Mortars and 1 Dreadbore with 2 Sign in Blood . As for the mono red matchup, I would run Ultimate Price in the sideboard - deals with their two biggest threaths, Hellrider and Thundermaw, before they can attack. Also kills Hellion Crucible tokens
March 23, 2013 3:35 a.m.
In each aggro match, my opponent cast spells each turn, so I don't think Huntmaster would have helped much because he wouldn't have flipped. With so much sorcery speed removal, I can't afford to pass too many turns, either.
I think I'll try adding some Sign in Blood for next week and see how that goes. I don't use MTGO, so FNM is the only place I can test.
March 23, 2013 11:16 a.m.
I see. If you're having trouble with instant speed removal here's what I'd recommend: You have 10 removal slots at the moment, so something like 3x Abrupt Decay (great, but doesn't kill Resto, Thrag, or Thundermaw), 2x Mizzium Mortars (sorcery but good), 2x Ultimate Price (kills Hellrider and Thundermaw Hellkite and Restoration Angel ), 2x Murder (yes I'm serious), and 1x Dreadbore . As for Sign in Blood , I would cut the Vraska and 2 Wolfir Avenger for 3,.
March 23, 2013 4:06 p.m.
I can't cut Wolfir Avenger , at least not more than 1 . He's an MVP as a surprise blocker, and the cheap regenerate creates a wall that my opponent has to answer if they want to get through. However, I agree that I need to change my removal. Maybe Devour Flesh or Tribute to Hunger ?
I'm considering squeezing in Rakdos Keyrune . It would be a blocking beast with Kessig Wolf Run on the field, but I don't know if that interaction would be enough to build around.
March 23, 2013 8:51 p.m.
I've made big changes to the deck, mainly the removal and sideboard. I've based them off a Jund deck that Top 8-ed at Verona, but I might need to tweak it further for my meta.
meecht says... #2
I've made an update, switching out Silklash Spider for Wolfir Silverheart.
March 20, 2013 12:30 a.m.