Tier Decks
Deck Help forum
Posted on March 14, 2012, 9:37 p.m. by vila_a23
Can someone please look at my Spirits deck and tell me what tier it falls under (if any). I am going to start tournament action soon and I want to know if the spirits deck would be a good choice to run. I keep hearing about how spirits does good in tournaments but, being fairely new to magic, i am still not sure what is all involved with specific deck archtypes. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!
It doesnt have a tier. It would be like tier 4 if that existed but for me its just an area for undeveloped and/or rogue decks.
March 15, 2012 1:01 p.m.
I have seen Blue, White Flying Spirit decks, consistently beat everything except Delver.
The deck puts out LOTS of 1/1 flying spirits, then pumps them, and gives them all hexproof, with its Captain. Then it either swarm, horde kills you, evades any blockers.
It also has finishers. like Geist of St Traft, and Angelic Destiny. Also a good spirit deck has, O rings, Vapor Snags, Fiend Hunters, D O J, to deal with other Aggro decks.
this is why your tier list, that while altho technically may be correct, is CRAP.
The reasons why some decks are tier 1, over some decks which SHOULD be tier 1 like Blue White Flying Spirits:
A. Everybody plays what they see others play. They do that because either they saw a pro do it. AKA Brian Kibbler playing Huntmaster. Or they see it be effective.
The problem with that, is that everybody gets locked into playing the "OFFICIAL" "TIER 1" decks, that no one, not even most of the pros, plays anything else.
And if they do play any other UNOFFICIAL unrecognized tier 1 deck, it loses, because either they didn't build it correctly, or the other Official tier 1 decks have been perfected, by sheer volume of play.
If Pros, other players were to CORRECTLY Build, play decks like Blue White Flying Spirits, RG Werewolves, Kuldotha Red Goblin Decks, CONTROL decks, which are all TIER 1 DECKS, as far as POWER LEVEL, or ability to beat other tier 1 decks, and almost all decks, goes, then those decks would win more, and everybody would be playing those decks, and those decks would then end up being official tier 1 decks.
But that doesn't, and won't happen, because all the pro's, and other players are to busy playing their "Official" "Tier 1" Zombie, and Delver Decks.
TIER 1 is, or SHOULD be the POWER LEVEL, effectiveness, of a deck, that is built by a player. If a player builds a magic deck, and that deck has the ability to consistently beat almost everything, if its built right, and played right, then that deck is a TIER 1 deck, whether its recognized as such, or not.
I have seen players play tier 1 Delver, Zombie decks, that were not built correcly, and they couldnt understand why their tier 1 deck was losing. I have also seen decks consistently win, and others say "but thats not a tier 1 deck". Then I say "yes it is a tier 1 deck. It's just not "OFFICIAL"
So the whole "OFFICIAL" tier 1 deck, and "OFFICIAL TIER 1 deck list of TIER 1 decks" thing is BS crap. The whole thing is a system, to get magic players to spend more money, on TIER 1 Decks, cards
March 15, 2012 3:04 p.m.
And btw I am 4-2, vs Zombies, 3 game matches wise. And I am 3-2 vs Delver 3 game matches wise. And I am 2-2 vs Kessig Wolf Run. 2-2 vs Humans. 2-2 vs Blue White control, and 2-2 vs Blue white flying Spirits.
I have done that with a RG Werewolf deck, in both playtesting, and at FNM's. but heck werewolf decks are not TIER 1, even though I beat the other tier 1 decks, 50% + of the time.
Also at the last FNM, I was last at, 23% of the 42 playing were Zombie decks, about another 20% were Delver, another 17% were Humans, and the last about 29 to 37% of decks wwre a mix of blue white spirits, blue white control, tempered steel, mono red, werewolf, kessig wolf Run, etc.
The sheer number of players playing the same exact cookie cutter delver, zombie, human decks, at that FNM, was so funny.
March 15, 2012 3:40 p.m.
Good decks in a bad players hands is down to luck.
Bad decks in a good players hands is down to skill.
Good decks in a good players hands become winners.Bad decks in a bad players players hands are noobs.
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A bad player can play a good deck and learn how to play more successfully.
A good player can play a bad deck and use his/her knowledge to make the deck as good as it can be.
Good player can play a good deck and play against other great players and have the match come down to pure luck of the draw.
A bad player can play a bad deck and lose and never come back to the game
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We all want to win and we all want to get better. So if someone is inspired to run a good deck based on the results of it in a previous tournament than thats fine. Even if bad players get lucky with a good deck and win against a good player with a bad deck that bad player will learn a lot from watching his opponent. The game is still a game and it is all about having fun.
March 15, 2012 6:02 p.m.
And Part of having fun, is not getting to locked up in the OFFICIAL tier 1 deck thing. If people want to play copy,paste play a cookie cutter, OFFICIAL, tier 1 deck, then hey whatever floats their boat. I do think tho, that's kind of funny, semi lame, and that more fun, and learning would come from not playing the same copy pasted cookie cutter official tier 1 deck, like everyone else. But that said, whatever floats peoples boats.
And if players want to make their own non official tier 1 decks, and want to make those non official tier 1 decks, a unofficial tier 1 deck, power level wise, then again, whatever a player wants to do have fun.
Me, I have my favorite themes, concepts, whether they are officially tier 1 or not. And I try to make decks, like infect, land destruction, Goblins, werewolves, blue, black, green, control, etc, into unnofficial tier 1 decks.
I think I have successfully achieved those things, especially with my Land destruction deck, and werewolf deck. I think if a Pro played those 2 decks of mine, they would win almost all the time.
But building a werewolf deck, land destruction deck, almost perfectly, is probably way harder, then a it would be with a Official Tier 1 deck. That said, once you do get just the right build with a werewolf deck, land destruction deck, its probably going to consistently beat most correctly built official tier 1 decks. It's just probably harder to get the just right build with a non official tier 1 deck, then it is with a official tier 1 deck.
March 15, 2012 7:38 p.m.
Also there is less room for errors,in a land destruction deck, and a werewolf deck, then there is with a official tier 1 deck. And they are less forgiving, then a official tier 1 deck.
Also I really think the magic community, pro's, players, have overlooked, misjudged werewolf decks. And the reason why I think that is, is because of how expensive werewolf decks, money wise are to make, and how hard they are to build just right.
I just think its just a matter of time tho, before somebody comes up with such a awesome werewolf deck build, that ends up almost dominating standard. I have heard of a lot of werewolf decks recently that have been tearing it up, winning a lot at FNM's, States, tourneys etc.
March 15, 2012 8:01 p.m.
Well 0 werewolf decks have won anything that resembles a competitive tournament. You may be right that a occasional werewolf deck int he future might make a top 16 but that by no means will ever make it a tier 1 deck.
Werewolves are not expensive unless you mean mana wise and than yes it is. Werewolf decks lose so much tempo waiting for a flip that they typically just lose outright before they can make it to turn 6 or the opponent at least has win in sight by turn 6. We are in a very aggressive meta game right now so the chance of it flipping is nearly 0 from your opponent and you would have to give up a turn to make the werewolves anything above a limited card.
The best and really ONLY playable werewolf is and that is because he is a 2 for 1 on both sides of the cards not over costed and can be aggressive on either side of the card.
Land destruction was tried prior to 12 and failed horribly because of the vast majority of ramp decks.
The fact is as a heavy tournament participant I look at land destruction decks and say...well thats cute and werewolves as snapcaster---> block, tragic slip. flip your dudes and I will swing in for 12.
I will however say that the other sleeper werewolf that I think has at least a little bit of potential is
March 15, 2012 8:43 p.m.
A werewolf deck with 4 birds, 4 Mayors, 3 Daybreak Rangers, 3 Phyrexian metmaorphs, 3 Huntmasters, 3 Immerwolfs, 3 Garruk relentless, 3 Green Sun's Zenith, 4 full Moon's Rise, 3 Moonmist, 3 Brimstone Volley's, 3 Chandra's, 3 kessig Wolf Run's, 2 inkmoth's, 4 rootbound Crag's, 3 Copperline Gorges, is a $375 deck. That is a lot of money.
But its also a a extremely effective build. Your perception of werewolves comes from the beginning of the innistrad days when werewolfs first came out, and when players played with Grizzled outcast, not the best werewolves.
Then werewolves became better when they used Mayor, Kruin, Instigator Gang, Daybreak ranger.Then they became even more better with Ranger, Mayor, Metamorph, Immerwolf, Huntmaster, Birds,etc.
Most werewolf decks, I see at FNM's, and even here on this and other sites, don't run the better cards. Tier 1 werewolf decks, gets all the werewolves I named that are in my deck, out on turns 1,2,3, then flip werwolves with Moonmist, or by doing things during Opponents turns, like, playing instant speed removal, having Garruk deal 3 damage to a foe's creature,etc.
My deck has 18 removal cards, 19 pump creatures up cards, 13 token generating cards, 6 search, tutor cards, etc. There is a reason why my werewolf decks, and very similar werewolf decks to my deck, have been consistently winning at competitive FNM's, city, convention, regional, states tourneys.
You really need to look at my werewolf deck, and my sideboard, and then playtest it 35 to 73 times. If you do, you will see the potential of a well built werewolf deck, in a new light. Turn 1: Birds, Turn 2: Daybreak Ranger. Turn 3. 1 Mayor, 1 Moonmist. Flip. Turn 4 Huntmaster. Turn 5 Metamorph a flipped mayor. Moonmist. Flip.
About Land destruction: IF You have 6 mana dudes, 21 land destruction cards,(most reusable), have card draw cards, search tutor cards, and the right Sideboard, with 3 Tunnel Ignus, Like my deck does, and your going to shut down most decks.
Many people on this site, and offline, have said "Oh Holy Sht, that's the best standard deck, I have seen in a long time". It has 3000 views, and has 19 +1's and is considered 1 of the best, if not the best land destruction deck online.
Here is my werewolf deck for reference:
deck:fell-morphic-master-packs-hunt
March 15, 2012 9:33 p.m.
It's cute up until the point where your facing 1 6/5 flipped mayor, 1 7/6 flipped Daybreak Ranger, Nightfall predator, 1 7/6 huntmaster with trample, 1 Metamorph flipped Mayor, 1 metamorph Nightfall predator, 1 Full Moon's Rise, 4,5,6 6/5 wolf tokens, ALL out by turns 4,5,6, which happens a LOT.
Yep that's what you say to my land destruction deck, when your playing a super fast aggro, swarm deck, or a ramp deck game 1, as you crush my land destruction deck game 1.
Then games 2,3 I side in 3,4 slagstorm,(if up against swarm), or side in 3 Tunnel Ignus(if against Ramp.)
Then its turn 1: drop bird, turn 2: destroy land. Turn 3 destroy land, or turn 3 or 4 slagstorm. Turn 4 or 5 Charmbreaker devils comes out. Then Hoard Smelter Dragon, plus Liqui Metal Coating Combo, locks you up. Then Karn appears, or I VAT a acidic slime or a Brutalizer Exarch. You then lose.
If its a ramp deck I am facing, then its turn 1 drop mana dude, turn 2 drop Tunnel Ignus(your screwed) but if not then destroy land. Turn 3 or 4: Invader Parasite(A land destruction creature card, is like Tunnel Ignus, where you take 2,3 damage every time a land comes into play.)
If its a counterspell deck I am against. I side in 3,4 Autumn's Veils, and 2,3 surgical extractions, to stop the counterspells, from stopping me from destroying islands.
Any non super fast aggro, non counterspell, non ramp decks, and I destroy them, without even needing to sideboard
Yep everybody says cute, until I semi consistently, to consistently beat them, with my werewolf, and land destruction decks.
March 15, 2012 10:29 p.m.
Good for you. Still cute :)
Take one to a Grand Prix or Star City 5k and tell me how you do.
March 15, 2012 10:33 p.m.
To Bad GP's or SCG standard non booster draft tourneys, don't come to Spokane, Tri Cities, Seattle,etc.
About the best that happens, is the City, Convention, Regional, states tourneys. The last GP to hit Seattle only did a $40 Booster draft tourney.
Also T and M cards has some of the absolute better, best magic players. Some of the top 300 players in the country, play at the store. 3 of the players, have semi consistently beat top ranked players, like the top 10th rated player, in the tristate area.
I would take the FNM's at T and M cards, and put it up against any FNM in the country as 1 of the better to best FNM's in the country, with the tougher, better players, and tougher, better decks.
Also not only have I semi consistently beaten most of these better players, and better decks, like Delver, Zombies, Kessig Wolf Run, etc, but they also think my werewolf deck, and land destruction decks, are pretty good.
Heck even the store owner, who consistently wins 50% of his games at the FNM, thinks my werewolf deck is good, and might be good enough to play at a GP, if and when 1 hits the Seattle area.
And should that happen, I will try to get a Semi Pro, great Awesome tourney player to play my deck at a states, GP, SCG, etc, if 1 comes to Seattle, since I am not a semi pro player, since I doubt I could win a GP, even if I was given the best deck ever. I am a better deck builder, then a player.
March 15, 2012 11:56 p.m.
Star City does go to Seattle you should look into it.
They will be there June 30th.
I personally live in the "Star City" home of you guessed it and the FM's are extremely competitive with local Pros attending whenever an event is not going on. So I would challenge that my FNM is possibly more serious lol. Not to say its for certain but I like my odds especially since Star City allows its employees to borrow any cards for a deck that night (Jerks :/)
March 16, 2012 12:02 a.m.
Will it be a actual standard, or Modern format tourney, or tourneys, or will it just be another $40 booster draft tourney, like the GP was, that was in Seattle mar 2-4, 2012
That was disappointing, I was looking forward to playing a deck at a GP, or having someone else play my deck at the GP, and then that got crushed by them only doing a booster draft.Grrrr.
Ok so your FNM is better, and mine, not that good. But it's still better then 69 to 79% of the FNM's in the country.
I mean when my werewolf deck went 4-2 vs that field, I had to play the Protege of Leo who beats players like the top 10th rated player in the Tristate area. He had a Blightsteel deck.
Then I had to play another protege's Human deck. Then I had to play Mr Standard's Protege, and his Kessig Wolf Run.
Then I had to play Jon's Protege, and their Zombie deck.
Then I had to play Delver. I only had 1 easy round. The rest were very tough. 2-1 vs Delver, 2-0 vs Zombie, 2-1 vs Kessig Wolf Run, 0-2 vs Humans, 1-2 vs Blightsteel, and 2-0 vs the easy round match up.
March 16, 2012 12:39 a.m.
Let me sum up everything in this thread: tier 1 decks are lame, my deck IS tier 1 just nobody knows it yet, of course my home tier 1 deck lost his deck was refined by volume of play... Ya ever think that maybe, just maybe the pros pick these strats BECAUSE they are the best? There is a tier list and it's not BS, in fact if you ever want to start having fun winning, I suggest looking at it and playing something on it.
March 27, 2012 8:25 a.m.
How decks become Tier 1: When a new block, or set of standard comes out,either some cards, themes, concepts, etc, are so obvious, that they are, or will be tier 1, that everybody starts playing those cards, themes, concepts, or somebody either stumbles, or finds a card, combo, concept, theme, etc, that nobody else see's, and then wins a lot with that.
After that happens, everybody like a bunch of good magic lemmings, start playing almost cookie cutter versions of those "official tier 1 decks, thus further refining them, and making them better thru sheer volume of play. Pro's, and other players, do pick those decks, because they are generally the best.
But they are only generally the best, because, generally, nobody is trying to find another deck to make tier 1, because they are to busy playing the official tier 1 decks.This causes decks that could be tier 1 to get overlooked, and not become tier 1.
When werewolf decks 1st came out in Innistrad, they were weak at first That's because most players hadn't seen how good Mayor, and Daybreak Ranger, and other werewolf cards were, and only knew about the common grizzled outcast like crap, because they they saw the crap, and decided to play obvious tier 1 decks, instead of spending time trying to make werewolf decks better.
Then after a lot of overlooking, some succeeded at making werewolf decks a playable, viable tier 2,3 deck. Then when Dark ascension came out with Huntmaster, immerwolf, then some used those new werewolves, with extremely highly effective, innovative tech, like reverberation, Green Sun, Birds, Metamorph, etc, to make borderline tier 1 power level werewolf decks.
So right now a werewolf deck, that is built, to the best that it can be for right now, is a unofficial, borderline tier 1 power level deck. Right now the best werewolf decks on this, and other sites, ARE somewhere between semi consistently to consistently winning at all levels, except GP's, PTQ's, and the pro tour.
Sometimes, because of what I explained above, sometimes some tier 1 decks, are late comers to the official tier 1 deck party. Werewolf decks, is probably 1 of these decks, if werewolf decks, keep on being refined, improved, etc, and IF future sets continue to do what DA did in coming out with better cards, for werewolf decks, and IF certain cards, not only cycle out, but are not reprinted, and IF werewolf decks start winning, placing higher, at GP, PTQ events.
Also I win most of the time, with my werewolf deck. So your silly comment about only winning if play a OFFICIAL Tier 1 deck off a cookie cutter list, is way wrong, and is at the heart of the problem that I have been talking about, that plagues magic.
March 27, 2012 9:23 a.m.
"But they are only generally the best, because, generally, nobody is trying to find another deck to make tier 1, because they are to busy playing the official tier 1 decks.This causes decks that could be tier 1 to get overlooked, and not become tier 1."
No lol. The other decks are made and lose horribly and as such are never used again because they didnt perform consistently.
Watched my teammate crush and I mean CRUSH a werewolf deck that used Immerwolf, huntmaster, birds, green sun's, etc. and he is using humans.
I myself followed it up by stomping it with wolf run (this was all past friday). You have to be able to beat tier 1 decks on a national level to make the deck your using even tier 3. Tier 1 are constant winners like delver and caw-blade for example and there is no way in hell werewolves would have ever beaten Caw-Blade.
March 27, 2012 10:13 a.m.
And I have beaten, Delver, Wolf Run, Zombie's, etc, consistently in tourny play so far, so big deal that a better werewolf deck was beat, just like big deal that a better werewolf deck beat official tier 1 decks.
The better werewolf deck that got beat, probably either had a bad draw, OR he couldn't draw sideboard cards sided in, OR: Did he have Phyrexian Metamorphs?, did he have 18 removal cards, and 18 pump cards? Probably not. His deck probably only had SOME, not ALL of the best cards. This might sound arrogant, presumptious, but a borderline unofficial Tier 1 Power level werewolf deck SHOULD PROBABLY have:
3,4 Daybreak Rangers, 4 Mayors, 2,3 Huntmaster, 2,3 immerwolf, 3 Phyrexian Metamorph, 4 birds, 2,3 Green Suns, 2,3 Garruk Relentless, 3,4 Brimstones, 2,3 incinerates, 3,4 moonmist, 3,4 Full Moon's Rise
Land: 4 Rootbound Crag, 3 Copperline Gorge, 2 Ghost quarters, 2 Kessig Wolf Runs, 2 Inkmoths
Sideboard: 3 Naturalizes or Ancient Grudges, 3 Mana Leaks, or, Autumn's Veils, Or Rangers Guiles, 3 Tunnel Ignus, 3 Grafdigger Cages, or Nihil Spell Bombs, 3 Slagstorms, or Blasphemous Acts, or Ratchet Bombs.
Only way a deck like that is going to get semi consistently beat, is thru bad luck, bad draws. 1 and only time my deck got crushed in a tourney, was when I couldn't draw hardly any naturalizes, mana leaks, Brimstones, any of 13 cards, to shut down Mirran crusader, and swords, all tourney long, vs all the mirran crusader, swords decks. Normally that doesn't happen.
The big problem with werewolf decks right now, is that they 1.cost to much money to build.(mine is $354). 2. Because of point 1, Players don't have the right cards. So far besides my own werewolf deck, I have only seen 1,2 online, and 1,2 offline unofficial, borderline Tier 1 power level werewolf decks, out of all the many werewolf decks, I have seen. 3. certain cards, like for example ratchet bomb, need to cycle out, not be reprinted, for werewolf to become officially tier 1. 4. Future sets need to not hose werewolf decks, by either coming out with even better cards for werewolf decks, and or not coming out with another anti werewolf deck card, for werewolf to become a official tier 1 deck.
KorApprentice says... #2
Kindred Spirits
Standard — vila_a23 — 1 hour ago
Playtest |deck:kindred-spirits-1/draw
0 COMMENTS — 28 VIEWS — SCORE: 1
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March 14, 2012 11:56 p.m.