Using shrazarad
Deck Help forum
Posted on Oct. 16, 2024, 9:05 p.m. by Bookrook
Shrazarad is banned in every single format, including vintage, because it makes games longer for no reason. I’ve been looking at it, and and it seems that even if it were legal, it would still be a really bad card. If it were legal, does anyone know any deck based around it or any way to abuse it?
Interesting. I’m talking about decks that would actually be using sharazad as part of their strategy to win, not just stall. Could it be used in mill?
October 17, 2024 10:17 a.m.
The only part of it that really affects anything is the "loses half their life" clause, so I personally would lean toward combining it with Wound Reflection or Bloodletter of Aclazotz, and make opponents stake everything on the subgame. But even then, I still have to win the subgame to win the main game, so it's just kind of adding an extra step and taking away reliability.
How do you see using it with mill? I guess mill them down so they start a subgame with a smaller deck. But at that point you might as well just finish milling them instead of chopping at their life.
I can't come up with a way to use it as part of a direct win condition that's not just a gimmick. I'm not saying it can't be fun, if everyone's on board with it. It's one of those Grip of Chaos sort of cards where if everyone just wants to goof off for an evening, it's great. Otherwise, it can get annoying.
October 17, 2024 1:24 p.m.
Stupid idea time: Shahrazad + Psychic Surgery.
Get Surgery out, then cast Shahrazad. Whether you win or lose the subgame, everyone shuffles afterward, so Surgery pulls a card from your opponent's deck. One card closer to a mill win, and one less card they can use in the next subgame. Start as many subgames as you can from the main game with Twincast or whatever. You want long but shallow games, not sub-sub-subgames. It's the jankiest Lantern Control.
October 17, 2024 2 p.m.
I think back then you could try to build White Weenie and throw Shahrazad in as more Goodstuff since your deck is almost certainly lower to the ground (and WAY more consistent) than anything anyone else was bringing to the table. On the downside you have to grind through extra games, but the more layers you pile up the better your deck tends to get, and the worse your opponents end up, because your deck has lots of interchangeable small creatures. There was also Mishra's Factory for a man-land, because you'd certainly want to run a few extra lands. Oh, and vs the mirror I suspect you might catch them off guard using Land Tax to dig out lands before they know you're on Shahrazad, at which point they not only are they land thinned for each mini-game, they also have dead Land Tax cards to stare at when they're behind on lands, because they don't know if the opponent has another Shahrazad up to punish them.
October 17, 2024 2:10 p.m.
legendofa now I have to build a deck around that. Honestly I feel like that’s something FormOverFunction would do. Also with sharazad, could it never be legal because it mentions ante?
October 17, 2024 7:20 p.m.
I've never played with it, but what about a Death's Shadow
build? If you lost half your life, cool, if your opponent loses half, maybe better. The fact that there no lifegain and somebody has to lose something might be useful.
October 17, 2024 7:22 p.m.
ChaosJester says... #9
I have a shahrazad deck full of Wish cards. You play Shahrazad, then a subgame starts immediately. In the subgame, you play Wish and wish for the Shahrazad in your graveyard from the main game, etc. The wincon is decking out your opponent in the best case because at some point after 20 Subgames, there will be no cards to draw and they lose immediately.
October 19, 2024 6:22 a.m.
That’s good to know for the Psychic Surgery deck with sharazad I’m building.
October 19, 2024 2:22 p.m.
ChaosJester I think I'm missing a step with your Wish combo. You keep pulling the Shahrazad from the main game into the new subgame until the opponent decks out in the newest subgame? How are you winning the main game? Each subgame only affects the game is was created in.
October 19, 2024 6:57 p.m.
SteelSentry says... #12
From what I've heard from the few people online that played it at the time, the card shines in best of three, in decks that are likely to win game 1. You take game 1, and then keep dragging game 2 into subgames until the tournament clock runs out and you win the round by default. It's the same theory as Self-Destruct Button from Yu-Gi-Oh, and the reason that card is banned as well. If you're not familiar;
Self-Destruct Button
Trap
- You can only activate this card while your Life Points are lower than your opponent's Life Points and the difference is 7000 points or more. Both players' Life Points become 0.
If you're in a losing position, you Button and try again. If you win game 1, you force button in games 2 and 3 to win the Duel 1-0-2.
October 20, 2024 6:35 a.m.
SteelSentry says... #13
Now that I'm thinking about it, it's a very efficient burn spell for Boros burn. If you can swing the double white, it is likely to do 8 or 9 damage turn 2, and doesn't lose on rate to something like Boros Charm until your opponent is at 6 life. It's not a great topdeck and it can backfire, but the upside of putting your opponent down to 6 on turn 2 is pretty saucy.
October 20, 2024 6:44 a.m.
Bookrook Going back to an earlier question, Shahrazad doesn't require ante, it just says that the subgame doesn't use one. That's in line with current rules, so the ante part isn't what's keeping it banned.
October 20, 2024 12:45 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #15
I gotta say: I do like the idea of figuring out a way to instant-speed Shahrazading to break a combo deck loool
October 20, 2024 6:21 p.m.
Honestly, I feel like it could be unbanned in vintage. It’s a strong enough format that a stalling strategy wouldn’t be broken. Also, if your playing sharazad to stall, your chances of actually winning the game that validates the stall strategy decreases.
October 20, 2024 8:48 p.m.
wallisface says... #17
Bookrook the problem with the card isn’t that it’s strong (practically speaking, it’s fairly weak). The problem with the card and why it’s banned, which has already been discussed, is that it far too easily allows games to stall indefinitely. Its presence is toxic towards games ending in a remotely-reasonable time, and it makes any form of tournament a miserable experience.
Cards don’t have to exist on the banlist for power-reasons alone. As we see with this card, its problems stem from just creating a toxic game environment.
There’s zero reason to unban this, as it adds nothing to the game while ruining a lot of play-experiences entirely. I’m sure those people that had to live through the competitive scene while this card existed will only speak poorly of its existence.
Also sideboards exist. If you’re planning to stall after a game 1 win, it’s trivially easy to only have this card in your deck game 2, to make sure the only game that finishes is that first game. The card forces games into being “best of 1”, which is just terrible
October 20, 2024 9:17 p.m.
Shahrazad isn't a Stax/Prison/Turbo Fog sort of stall effect. It's a "abuse a quirk of the rules to damage the tournament structure" sort of stall effect.
Let's say I won game 1 and sideboard in Shahrazads, copy spells, and recursion. The match clock hits 00:00, and final turns are called. There are five turns to win or lose. If there's no winner after five turns, it's a draw.
I start the first turn by casting and copying Shahrazad. We now have to play two full subgames to resolve those. The first one finishes, but in the second subgame, I again cast and copy Shahrazad. There's now two more subgames we have to play to resolve the second subgame of the original Shahrazad. To resolve one spell and its copy, on the first of five time-limit turns, we have to go through three additional full games. And unless one of us is at 3 or less life in the main game, these three additional games probably don't affect the outcome of the main game.
Now repeat that on turn 3 of 5 and turn 5 of 5, and I can go through nine full Bo1 subgames to end the main game. If a single subgame takes ten minutes, I just added around an hour and a half to the match. The only way out of it is for one of us to concede the main game, and I don't want to lose my 1-0 match advantage. All the other tournament matches finished a long time ago, and people are bored and frustrated. And this isn't even the worst-case scenario.
October 21, 2024 3:54 a.m.
Couldn’t you just concede the sub games? You’ll be up in card advantage and have a still solid chance of winning, even with life loss.
October 21, 2024 8:20 p.m.
wallisface says... #20
Bookrook you could, but in a lot of matchups that’s just giving your opponent the opportunity to win again - if the card has been Forked/Twincast then you’re choosing to put yourself down to 5 (or less) life just to keep playing the game, which might now be immediately over because you’re within Bolt-range.
October 21, 2024 9:05 p.m.
I’m talking about later in the game where you’re in the final five turns where time matters. I see your point though.
legendofa says... #2
Pure stall. You cast Shahrazad and Twincast it. Start the first subgame and cast another Shahrazad. Probably finish that one, then start the subgame from the copied Shahrazad. Cast another Shahrazad and Fork it. At this point, you've started two subgames within a subgame after finishing another subgame, all while barely affecting the main game and possibly using no more than two actual physical copies of Shahrazad. With a full playset of Shahrazad and enough copy effects, it's possible to start a game that goes on for hours, or until the tournament organizers kick you out for deliberate slow play.
That's why it got banned, by the way. People would win game 1 of a tournament match, then force games 2+ to go way past time. The main game can't be called until all the sub games are finished, if I remember right.
October 16, 2024 9:36 p.m.