Kiora, the crashing wave
Economics forum
Posted on Dec. 25, 2013, 3:53 a.m. by jonhydude
So what do you think of Kiora, the crashing wave and how much do you think she will cost? My estimate is about $6-$15, depending on how its used in GP's and Pro tours.
Link to card: http://mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/kiorathecrashingwave.html
strateupjee says... #3
No more than 20 when it is all hyped up, and it will fall, I mean maybe I'm wrong, but last time I checked, who plays Simic? Haha
December 25, 2013 4:03 a.m.
I play Bant, and I can see it being a sideboard card against control (That one Aetherling they run) but yeah, Nobody 'good' plays simic.
December 25, 2013 4:27 a.m.
theinfernumflame says... #6
I also play Bant, and I'm split on this. Its abilities could be useful, I guess. Accelerate it out on turn 3, use its -1 to draw and drop a 4th land...that helps get cards and maybe gets Angel of Serenity out sooner. The +1 kind of reminds me of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage , except it only targets creatures, and it doesn't keep them from blocking. I'll see how this plays out, and I'll probably at least playtest with it in the deck, but I don't see it being better than the Garruk, Caller of Beasts I already run. In a land ruled by Hero's Downfall , planeswalkers have to be able to do something powerful out of the gate, and I'm not sure this does.
December 25, 2013 5:05 a.m.
lord_of_the_snakes says... #7
i think i'm going to like her, we only have 2 mono black devotion decks in my store and they are both pretty bad, and i love my simic deck, it kinda died, but now i get to remake it really good
December 25, 2013 5:09 a.m.
Probably like $9 for her standard stay, then falling to $4 when she rotates.
I WILL BREAK KIORA
mark my words
December 25, 2013 5:42 a.m.
She's awful. They've printed her at two starting loyalty. It basically screams - 'please kill me the turn I'm played'. Hey Shock , how are you? Her +1 is only mildly useful, even then only really to stall. Her -1 is pretty good. Her ultimate is pretty useless considering you can't use until around turn 7-9. One 9/9 token a turn? Wait it's not even per turn. It's at the end of your turn only. Wow. It's a mediocre ability that's ridiculously hard to play (in terms of the turn that it can come out) and it won't impact the board much when you first play it. The combination of her ultimate and +1 seems pretty good though - but to keep her alive you need to wait another turn to ultimate.
That's not going to scare control who should be pretty close to winning with their unblockable AEtherling . Not going to scare black who has evasion and Doom Blade . Not going to scare red who usually aim to win by that point. Will scare green, a lot.
December 25, 2013 5:53 a.m.
ChiefBell: No offense, but I don't agree at all with what you're saying. Her two loyalty is a bit offensive, yes, but at the same time Shock doesn't work. You have priority on your turn, you can tick her up before anyone can burn her. That logic that you're using then also works for JtMS: Lightning Bolt . Her +1 locks down Desecration Demon , which I think was the point, and is a Fog ability for a deck that's becoming quite useful. It's also a flavorful ability. Just a straight-up Fog would be ridiculously overpowered. Her ultimate is montrous. (See what I did there?) I would much rather have an end step dude than an upkeep one, considering that it will trigger on the turn you ult her. This card will turn U/W control into bant, and she will see some play.
December 25, 2013 8:05 a.m.
I guess I'll just hit her with Lightning Strike if I can't use Shock .
December 25, 2013 8:40 a.m.
cschiller - you are right. The cost to play her +1 is to place a counter on her so she gets 3 loyalty, before you can Shock . Still sitting on 3 loyalty T5 is.... an interesting position to be in. That's not true for JTMS (by the way) who gets 5 loyalty I think after his first +2. Planeswalkers that cost 4 mana and come in with 2 loyalty are just ridiculously risky. I don't care how flavourful she is. She's a Johnny card, not a Spike card. An odd card that you can try and break and fit into weird new decks - but adds little to the existing competitive archetypes. If she sees widespread, large play (not in sideboards), I'll eat my own arm. And video it. You have my word. The problem I have is that her ultimate takes ages to do and then when you do it, nothing immediately changes. AEtherling is still a threat and Desecration Demon is still a threat, as is Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Archangel of Thune . In fact all the tangible threats in standard seem to have evasion. If you ultimate her, then you're not stopping them from attacking. Risky business.
December 25, 2013 8:54 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #14
I'll say the same thing I said on the other thread.
For all of the haters, keep in mind that Maze's End is a thing. Kiora fits into that deck like nothing else.
December 25, 2013 9:11 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #15
Maze's End will continue to be a bad card in a tier 10 deck. It is most certainly not "a thing".
Also, I just wanted to point out how dumb it is to think this interacts with Aetherling at all. Someone mentioned this, failing to see how Aetherling's own abilities (The only reason it's played, putting aside the fact that it's seeing less and less play) get around this card.
December 25, 2013 9:25 a.m.
@ChiefBell You realize that 90% of the time JTMS comes into play, he is Brainstorm right, not fateseal?
Kiora is not going to see heavy Standard play, but man oh man does EDH love her.
December 25, 2013 9:28 a.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #17
She helps nullify Desecration Demon and Blood Baron of Vizkopa . Shouldn't that be enough of a reason for Simic-colored decks to run her?
Hell, she can also protect other Planeswalkers!
December 25, 2013 9:39 a.m.
No I didnt realise but I dont play eternal formats so I shouldnt be referring to cards I know nothing about. Regardless, Kiora, in my opinion, will not see standard play. That's something I'm a little more qualified to claim.
December 25, 2013 9:43 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
It's useless to start speculating now. We need to see the rest of the spoilers to make accurate guesses.
December 25, 2013 10:05 a.m.
strateupjee says... #20
I am behind ChiefBell on this one... I was so damn excited when I saw a PW spoiled, and was pretty much immediately let down. Her +1 is really not that big of a deal, seeing as how not a single deck in the meta will be like "damn you stopped my one creature" they will be something like "ok you answered a single Demon, still have another and a Blood Baron, darn..." I just don't see her coming down at 2 loyalty and sticking around. I honestly feel wizards could have done something so much cooler with her. I put a ceiling on her at 20 dollars, and I would bet she falls to about 8-12 within the first month. All I know is I will be unloading Temples of Mystery while she is all hyped up haha. Also, to Ohthenoises, I saw you say that on the other forum, and I still have to say, turbofog is not all that competitive. Who knows, maybe this is the push it needed, however I really don't think so, and I see it staying about where it is now.
December 25, 2013 10:58 a.m.
I like how I see all kinds of comments in multiple forums saying "who plays simic anyways?" as if Kiora will be the only green or blue card in the set and there's no chance for simic decks to improve. Before Theros was released everyone could have easily said, "who plays mono black in standard anyways?", but look at that deck now. I love how 4 cards have been spoiled and people are so quick to judge. Simic or Bant control could easily protect her and ultimate her as you'll have access to every counterspell in the book along with Prophet of Kruphix to keep your mana available. I'm not going to guarantee that one of those becomes the next big deck, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me either.
December 25, 2013 11:25 a.m.
abenz419 - Yeh we'll probably see a new meta emerge. Equally, you must remember that the existing archetypes will probably receive a boost as well. We can never know though. I think bant control could (at least try) to become a thing.
December 25, 2013 11:29 a.m.
Theres a dude at my LGS who plays a nasty standard simic deck, comes in 1st with it most of the time. Im sure he'll be using this.
December 25, 2013 11:40 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #24
There was a Maze's End deck that just recently took a standard event somewhere. Just saying, it's more competitive than you may think.
December 25, 2013 12:03 p.m.
MaliciousMac says... #25
I think Simic may start being play after BNG is released. It seems like it'll get much needed support.
And I'm thinking that she'll see play. Her ult is pretty incredible, even if it may be a little difficult since she comes in at 2. Bant might become extremely relevant after the rotation.
And I want to see ChiefBell eat his own arm. Js.
December 25, 2013 12:11 p.m.
If simic suddenly gets tons of new toys then everything could well change. Then I might end up having to eat my own arm.
December 25, 2013 12:14 p.m.
Has T/O determined which set Kruphix (U/G God) will come in yet?
December 25, 2013 12:16 p.m.
Tradeylouish says... #28
I expect Kiora to preorder for around $15-20, then drop to around $10 within a week or two. It will probably see a little bit of Standard play, but not in tier 1.
December 25, 2013 8:03 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #29
I'd like to state I'm a Simic player... but I kind of have to agree with everyone else, her starting loyalty is too low. It should be 3. The fact is my own deck... she's too slow. if it took 3 turns to her ulti I may play her since you can protect with Simic Charm and counter spells. With 4 turns to get vanilla 9/9s I'm actually a bit sad.At first I thought her +1 was an all round fog which would have made her awesome... but as is, She won't see much play outside Bant control and maybe sideboard for Simic. A Planeswalker shouldn't be a sideboard.
That said I still have my finger's crossed that Kruphix his/herself will have it's activated ability as GB: Target permanent gains hexproof until end of turn. If that does happen, then I'll probably be playing both and Thassa. After all some unblockable 9/9's are pretty damn good. Either way her startingvloyalty should be 3
December 25, 2013 9:41 p.m.
They've done lots of testing throughout their whole design and creation of this set as well as every other set, so I'm sure there is a reason it's 2. Imagine if they changed nothing else about her and just made her starting loyalty 3. Then there would be a bunch of people going, "damn all I gotta do is protect her for 2 turns and starting turn 6 I can start pumping out 9/9's at the end of every turn, that's awesome". I mean of course everyone wishes every planeswalker was easier to protect and easier to ultimate lol.
December 25, 2013 10:33 p.m.
Terabellum says... #31
What a shame if Vorel's ability could only affect Kiora, otherwise she might have some use in my simic deck
December 25, 2013 11:58 p.m.
Ogre Battledriver + Domri Rade 's emblem + 9/9 token = 10/9 double strike trample hexproof = instant win in most cases. I see R/U/G being big, I am already preformatting my deck for it.
December 26, 2013 12:38 a.m.
I'm not sure where your getting 10/9 from because the battledriver gives +2/+0 when a creature enters the battlefield under your control, plus you get the token at the beginning of your end step so the battledriver's ability would be irrelevant because you would get the token long after combat, meaning it'll just be a 9/9 trample/double strike/hexproof. Which is still awesome but being able to protect both planeswalkers in a RUG deck would be really tough making it very difficult/unlikely to ultimate both planeswalkers
December 26, 2013 1:07 a.m.
This doesn't stop AEtherling , what are you guys smoking?
December 26, 2013 2:27 a.m.
DaggerV - I don't really get it either. But if your opponent has tapped out, then Kiora blanks AEtherling . However your control opponent isn't going to tap out before playing AEtherling .
But Kiora does blank Stormbreath Dragon , Desecration Demon , Blood Baron of Vizkopa , and many more. She also blanks Planeswalkers! Although I can't think of a situation where you would have Kiora blank a 'walker and it be good for you.
December 26, 2013 2:36 a.m.
As an artist I think it's weird that the one card WotC decided to tease us with uses one of the most famous japanese wood-cuts ever by the artist Hokusai as it's background.
It looks like the artist flipped the image of "the Wave" and then distorted in in Photoshop before painting over it some more. The large wave behind Kiora and the small wave in front of her are both transformed versions of "the Wave".
At first glance you might think that it was simply inspired by Hokusai's original, but as you can see below, there are several areas that make it clear that the wood-cut was simply copy/pasted in. The illustration style of the background and Kiora don't even match, which makes the whole thing more obvious:
For the record, I only mention this because it's pretty lame of the artist and I'm amazed that he would use such an iconic image as a rush-job background.
The wood-cut is from the 1800's, so I'm not trying to imply that Wizards owes anyone money or anything like that, but I think it's normal to assume that the illustrations on these cards will be originals, and this was disappointing.
December 26, 2013 8:33 a.m.
Ohthenoises she is not even good in maze'S end! They attack her, she dies, because most of the fogs don'T protect walkers! Riot Control Druid's Deliverance etc will not protect her. Only Fog would work.
December 26, 2013 10:16 a.m.
She's not standalone for sure but I can see a lot of potential!
December 26, 2013 11:09 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #42
She's good in mazes end because you can play extra lands and then use your own Fog s in hand to protect her. Then you can keep drawing and fogging. Her +1 can neuter a big threat and your fogs can protect her. Keep in mind that her -1 draws you cards too. This is vital for mazes end fog.
December 26, 2013 11:29 a.m.
zacharyzacharypotato says... #43
20-25 dude after turn 8 you pump 99 every turn and as well the -1 or -2 i forget is opand +1 op
December 26, 2013 12:04 p.m.
Ohthenoises did you even read what i wrote? Fogs dont protect planeswalkers! they are not players, so if i have a board full of creatures, and attack her, she just dies.
December 26, 2013 1:52 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #45
Sigh, read Fog again dude. They don't protect from direct damage but preventing all combat damage works.
December 26, 2013 4:19 p.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #46
Kiora will not stop AEtherling at all. It's simple. Player uses the +1 to "lock down'', then AEtherling 's player blinks him. Since it's exiled and then returned to the battlefield, it counts as a new creature and is not locked down.
While this can lock down Desecration Demon or Blood Baron of Vizkopa , it can only do one monster per turn. Orzhov decks run Hero's Downfall and Obzedat, Ghost Council which Kiora can't really do anything about. That and the speed of Desecration Demon means Orzhov probably has multiple huge threats on the field at once.
This card is garbage, really. If it's expensive, it'll be used as trade fodder only to suckers who think this card is actually good. True value is maybe $5 tops, same as the core set planeswalkers (who are all more useful). Simply put, this card isn't a threat unless it gets the ultimate out, which is unlikely at best.
December 26, 2013 4:44 p.m.
@tehnewnew I too recognized that kiora's background looks fairly similar to that Original Japanese wood carving you expertly googled all the info about.
However by placing copies of each side-by-side you actually have shown that it's not a direct copy but an artist's interpretation of it, an original piece inspired by a more famous original piece, it's not a direct copy/paste job and if anything, it's allowing a new generation of people to see an updated version of a classic piece, there has to be some number of magic players out there who will be seeing kiora's artwork without ever having seen that original wood carving and they may like it, not knowing that it is inspired by that wood carving from the 1800's. which if you feel like taking personal offense for this guy Hokusai or whatever, fine. But considering you probably have zero personal ties to that guy, I feel as though your making a stand for the sake of making a stand.
I think the artist for this kiora, the crashing waves card, Scott M. Fischer, would have similar things to say in his own defense.
December 26, 2013 4:48 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #48
I just want to throw this out there, everyone is sad that she starts at 2. But if we take a moment to think about her playability outside of standard, we can see that at 3 she might be a bit crazy. Doubling Season and Gilder Bairn are cards, and who knows what effect she would have on modern or EDH if she was able to give a player a non-interactive emblem that just dropped 9/9's every turn. Easily played on turn 3 being in green, she could be more effective than intended if she started at 3.
December 26, 2013 5:11 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #49
I meant to say if she easily gave a player the non-interactive emblem.
The Doctor says... #2
Considering that Simic isn't played at all, I don't see her really being more then $8.
December 25, 2013 4:02 a.m.