Kiora, the crashing wave
Economics forum
Posted on Dec. 25, 2013, 3:53 a.m. by jonhydude
So what do you think of Kiora, the crashing wave and how much do you think she will cost? My estimate is about $6-$15, depending on how its used in GP's and Pro tours.
Link to card: http://mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/kiorathecrashingwave.html
Ohthenoises so if you happen to have exactly Fog , you can protect her for one turn. Wow. So you get one Explore or one bad fog for 4 mana and 10 $. why would you not just play a good card instead? I can not see her being better then Urban Evolution , Jace, Architect of Thought or Supreme Verdict in Turbofog.
December 26, 2013 5:56 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka then why not maker her +1 give +2 instead, let her start at 3 and make her ult cost 7 or 9? you could even start her at 2 and giver her a +2, it just bothers people, that she dies to every good directed burn spell.
December 26, 2013 5:59 p.m.
A couple of UK sites have her on pre-order for 14.99 ($25), but unless there are counter mechanics in other cards in BTG or JOU Doubling Season -style, that will crash to $10 or under.
December 26, 2013 6:12 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #6
I only see this card being played in Bant Control. It doesn't even fit most Simic decks, which are in fact getting more popular in the Devotion to Green or Devotion to Blue shells. It's honestly very underwhelming (no PW should hang their hat on the ultimate, which seems to be the only silver lining here), but since all PW's seem to be overvalued at first, I'm guessing it'll be $15 when Born of the Gods comes out.
All in all, I'm very disappointed by this first attempt at a Simic PW- it's out of flavor (plus seems like a White ability), the starting loyalty is pathetic for the cmc with only a +1, and for a Johnny guild like Simic with current standouts being Prophet of Kruphix , Master Biomancer , and Prime Speaker Zegana , this card is way too Timmy / bad attempt at Spike.
December 26, 2013 7:26 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #7
Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think that the anti-AEtherling strategy works here as long as they flicker it after it's targeted.
December 26, 2013 7:28 p.m.
I AM SO HAPPY SHE FINALLY GOT PRINTED. I AM UNHAPPY SHE SUCKS BY HERSELF...
December 26, 2013 9:40 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #10
CW: As bad as Ral Zarek is, there are at least some cool Johnny things that can be done with his plus ability. Sadly, it doesn't seem like there's much creativity to be had here.
Also, the idea that the first ever Simic Planeswalker might find its best home in the most disgraceful deck in Standard- Maze's End Turbofog- makes me want to puke.
December 26, 2013 10:52 p.m.
Godofredo_Renato says... #11
If you are playing with blue , counterspell things like Magma Jet , Lightning Strike with Swan Song , Simic Charm , Negate , etc. You may use Springleaf Drum and Sylvan Caryatid for mana in order to play counter spells. Springleaf Drum also allows Gilder Bairn to function really well, boosting Kiora's counter's. Then, with the color variety you get with Springleaf Drum and Sylvan Caryatid you may also try to use some walls to protect the early game even if they have a third color.
December 27, 2013 7:53 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #12
Preselling for $20-$30 on ebay now. All walkers from Theros were around $40 after spoiling. I think it's safe to say it will settle between $5-$8 by eight weeks after it's release.
December 27, 2013 11:49 a.m.
She sould have been a 3 cost, but now I'm thinking of making a neat little U/G flash deck like I've been seeing on cockatrice, just more gimicky, with Prophet of Kruphix , Master Biomancer , Master of Waves , populate cards, counterspells, and Cyclonic Rift .
December 27, 2013 4:16 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #14
CW: Progenitor Mimic sounds like the perfect "populate" card for that deck.
December 27, 2013 7:14 p.m.
Ultimaodin says... #15
Honestly, I actually could make a Simic control build with her as the star and succeed pretty easy. Unfortunately, I'm not a control player. Also if Gilder Bairn was still legal I'd abuse the heck out of it.
December 28, 2013 5:52 a.m.
I think she'll be like Ashiok where everywhere I looked people weren't remotely impressed and then after the prerelease it skyrocketed from like 15 bucks to 25-30 bucks, (can't remember how high) I'm trying to plot a deck that uses Prophet of Kruphix along with Kiora and an ungodly amount of counters. If she ultimates the game is effectively over I sure know that there aren't too many answers to your opponent getting a 9/9 kraken on their end steps save for bouncing and or kill spells but those run out after awhile. I will admit she is basically garbage against RDW and other aggro decks.
December 30, 2013 2:14 p.m.
For as "meh" of a planeswalker as she may be, we still have no idea how the Meta will change by the time BOG is released. I mean seriously, who would have thought pack rat and Nightveil would have exploded as much as they did? For all we know there could be some new mechanic in the next set that tailors PERFECTLY to what she does.
But as of now yeah, "Meh"
Also, I firmly believe that wizards is particularly careful and picky about the cards they chose to officially spoil, ones that are obscure and give you insight into some of the weird mechanics of the new set, but not give you enough information to really structure out how the set is going to work.
December 30, 2013 2:22 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #18
dan8080, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver was really hyped for the moment she was spoiled where I live. People new the format was going to be slow, so she would be an easy addition. She's cheap in cmc, has a strong loyalty start and a good +2. Unfortunately, Kiora, the Crashing Wave is fastly weaker in every way to Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver . I agree with others in that she'd only be a sideboard card for control, as she has no uses outside of it. Maybe if they bring out a prison card like Crawlspace she might get used in BUG.
But i digress, when will you ever use her +1 ability outside of a control deck? Standard is perhaps her only hope. I'm not even sure how EDH will accommodate her ... and I'm not anywhere near a competitive EDH player. I certainly won't be able to do anything with her in modern until they release that prison card.
January 1, 2014 2:43 a.m.
MTGprojectzer0 says... #19
Since many said she is weak, etc, how about in this perspective?
I pay 4 mana for Kiora, the Crashing Wave 's -1 ability, I draw a card, play an extra land and bait a Lightning Strike / Shock / Hero's Downfall ?
January 1, 2014 2:51 a.m.
theinfernumflame says... #20
As it is, Prophet of Kruphix is GREAT for tempo decks (play Prophet, untap, flash in something scary, then repeat every turn). That alone makes Simic colors (usually with a third, like white, for access to better spells) playable. Hopefully, since great mana sources are seriously lacking in post-rotation standard, there will be enough good cards to make simic playable on its own again.
January 1, 2014 3:41 a.m.
OlafBiggles says... #21
I think Kiora will see standard play, at least come rotation.. With Whelming Wave and archaeomancer/mnemonic wall, kiora's follower, vortex elemental, retraction helix, perplexing chimaera, and a bit of noncreature control... I plan to build this:
http://www.mtgvault.com/olafbiggles/decks/overwhelming-leviathan/
January 28, 2014 6:07 p.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #22
Seeing all the Born of the Gods cards spoiled now, I will place a safe bet that this card will not be big in any format. Sure, her ultimate is excellent, but I doubt she'll be able to use it against any decent decks. I'll be shocked if she stays at more than $5 come the next set. Simic is playable, sure, but this card isn't.
January 28, 2014 7:08 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #23
I have seen a few Bant lists recently that opt for Kiora over a playset of Jace, Architect of Thought and I just don't get why. Their abilities are incredibly similar, their CMC the same, and Jace is undoubted better on almost every front unless your opponent can literally muster just a single threat. Given that those two share a color, I also find it doubtful that Kiora sees play in competitive decks, even tier 2 or 3.
January 29, 2014 12:10 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #24
Again, I will point out that Maze's End is a thing. I'm not expecting Maze's End to beat MBD as one of the more played decks but Kiora, the Crashing Wave fits those decks perfectly.
For Femme_Fatale: Silent Arbiter /Stoic Angel .
January 29, 2014 12:15 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #25
It is true that Maze's End decks are probably the best home for Kiora. However, since no self-respecting MTG player would ever consider playing such a deck, and it isn't good enough to be considered even tier 3, I still stand by the assertion that Kiora will not see play in a competitive deck.
January 29, 2014 12:36 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #26
What was that? Maze's end placing in top8 in NH.
January 29, 2014 12:42 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #27
Actually, it does pretty well in the events it's played in. Lots of 2nd and 3rd place finishes.
January 29, 2014 12:43 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #29
Wow, a whole one Top 8 appearance that happened four days after rotation, before anyone even realized that MUD and MBD were the top decks. Consider me floored. You know what got first place in that tourny? That's right, Gruul aggro.
Speaking from my own experience, I have never seen a Maze's End deck finish in a Top 8 at my shop despite quite a few attempts at it. It seems like there always at least a couple floating around at FNM. Personally, I have lost exactly once to such a deck in about ten matches. The results certainly don't atone for the eye-rolling and loss of respect you will get from fellow players for bringing such a deck to a tournament.
You know what they say- friends don't let friends play Maze's End .
January 29, 2014 12:56 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #30
Btw, I did a search on mtgtop8.com for Standard decks using Maze's End , and the only post-rotation result was the NH tourny you referred to. I have no idea where the "lots of 2nd and 3rd place finishes" claim came from.
January 29, 2014 12:59 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #31
Some of them were block constructed, more than I expected but still.
Look, I'm not saying that it's going to become #1 here, I'm just saying that it is a thing. It's the type of deck that's ALMOST there. Who knows? Kiora might be the push. I doubt it but it is a possibility.
Fog decks have always been a thing. Not very competitive but fun to watch and play.
January 29, 2014 1:08 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #32
Setting aside its competitiveness (if it becomes a tier 1 or 2 deck I will probably quit playing Standard lol), the last description I'd apply to Turbofog is that it's "fun to watch and play." I'm not enthralled by the idea of seeing how many Fog or Riot Control I can be lucky enough to draw into, and I feel like I've wasted my time and money any time I'm paired against such a deck. It takes no skill to pilot that deck or play against it.
I remember one time shortly after rotation, I was hanging out at my LGS while there was a small tourny going on. Since it was small enough to not warrant assigned tables, this guy playing a Maze's End deck set up shop at the table next to my friend and me so we got to see all of his matches. The only "fun" part of watching those games was to witness how every one of his opponents would roll their eyes once they realized what he was playing. And as I remember, he won one match the whole night against a kid who was an obvious noob playing with a deck full of commons.
January 29, 2014 1:30 a.m.
blackmaj97 says... #33
I really think that you can build a deck around just getting her ultimate, using that new card that bounces all non serpant things to their owners hands. Plus a turbo fog approach could make this card scary good in standard especially against control decks. Just play a Blue Green flash base and always hold up negate mana and heroes downfall shouldn't be an issue. I am going to be picking up a full playset of these at my local fnm joint for sure. I am super hyped for the blue green cards in the coming sets because I just love the rampy control idea in standard. All things aside this card seems like a great fun thing to brew around and I am going super into blue green for this (:
January 29, 2014 8:35 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #34
I'm a fan. Putting a Bant Control deck together. Might try out a RUG super friends for fun.
January 29, 2014 8:47 a.m.
I think in standard she will fail to most red, black, blue, or green based decks, simply because it is too easy to deal with. Red is running lava ax which hits a player for 5; that is a kill. Black has "destroy target planeswalker", so that is a kill. Blue is running counters like crazy, so that is a failed drop. Green runs aggro thus her +1 is worthless when she hits the field. Truth be told only a mono white would allow her to be a major hit. Don't get me wrong in modern she will properly destroy plenty of decks by a green blue elf deck.
February 26, 2014 11:37 a.m.
Gorgosaurusrex says... #36
Why do people hate Maze's End
decks so much? I was playing a turbofog Door to Nothingness
deck before it rotated out, then I switched to Maze's End
. I would argue that my deck is much more fun to play against than a typical U/W control deck, and it certainly takes a good amount of skill to pilot against "tier 1" decks.
I really like Kiora, the Crashing Wave in my deck (TurboMaze) so far. Her first two abilities are extremely relevant.
February 26, 2014 11:57 a.m.
According to mtgtop8 Kiora has only been played once so far (twice if you count EDH). I don't think I'm going to have to eat my own arm.
It's still early days though.
February 26, 2014 12:18 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #39
I think Bant is where she is going to fit in best. I've trying deckbuilding with her in BUG, but it has failed to monoblue and monoblack which are STILL 2 of the most commonly played decks in tournaments of significance
Monoblue is an aggro deck at heart and event if you "ramp" to her on turn 3, they hit he with 2 of their other creatures and get rid of her. She needs to be protected with something like a Supreme Verdict
or Anger of the Gods
.
Maybe RUG would be a good fit, but it would take some work to pull off
cschiller says... #1
People are getting pissed because her +1 only locks down one creature. If it was a regular fog effect, she would be crazy expensive, maybe even Liliana of the Veil type expensive.
December 26, 2013 5:20 p.m.