The cost of playing magic
Economics forum
Posted on Oct. 7, 2013, 1:20 p.m. by SharuumNyan
I'm increasingly hearing comments, online and at the LGS, that sound like this.
"I want to play standard, and I want to win, but I don't want to spend more than $50 on my deck."
or
"Expecting magic players to spend hundreds of dollars on a deck isn't fair to people who don't have that much extra income."
or
"You only beat me because you can afford that playset of Voice of Resurgence and I can't!"
What do you say to people, especially those who are new to Magic, when they make comments like this? I don't want to alienate anyone from the game, but at the same time I'm getting a little annoyed with people who believe that they're entitled to be competitive without paying for a competitive deck. Some of them are total jerks about it.
DimirQueen says... #2
UmbrotheUmbreon, my only problem with that is you could have "one more card" to counter their "one more card." It's basically saying that the opponent only won by a fluke. :/ I just think it's pretty obnoxious to imply that, I guess, instead of admitting that your opponent did better.
October 8, 2013 1:18 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #3
That's where obnoxiousness comes in DimirQueen. I'll admit I was defeated cause my opponent played better, but I will state that if I had one more card I could turn the game around or just flat out win if it really was true.
October 8, 2013 1:36 p.m.
I've seen it mentioned in this topic and have heared it before, but telling someone not to just jump into constructed if they don't have the money for the "staple" cards in standard is kind of ridiculous and it really annoy's me. FNM's are your best opportunity to learn, get better, and play regularly, and at my local shop they are always standard constructed. Telling someone around here who doesn't have the extra money to buy the expensive cards that are in EVERY competitive deck to avoid constructed formats would be like telling them to quit playing magic all together. Sure they can start off with the cheaper cards but eventually, the more they learn and improve, the more they'll want to be just as competitive as the people they see winning regularly. If you could build a budget deck that wins consistently in a competitive environment then people wouldn't spend the money for the expensive cards because it wouldn't be necessary (or another way to look at it, if those cards could be consistently competitive in that type of environment then they wouldn't be budget cards as their price would rise because they would be more sought after). There is a reason those cards are considered "staple" cards and it's because a well built deck containing them is better than a well built "budget" deck. There is just no way to be competitive as consistently as a deck full of expensive "staple cards" if all you can afford is homebrewed budget decks. I'm not saying a budget deck can't win, i'm just saying it can't win consistently.
October 8, 2013 2:15 p.m.
The fact of the matter is simple: These players are right.
The more and more I play magic, the less it seems to be about skill, and the more it seems to be about 'How much money are you willing to spend + luck'. Wizards are nothing more than a money grabbing whore
Just look at the power of the planeswalkers if you want proof. Nobody in their right mind would think that these cards are anywhere near balanced. All versions of Jace have been broken. Elspeth is basically a 'I win' card for 6 mana, Chandra gives red tools that really they shouldn't have. Even the new green planes walker is fucking nuts in green (free pitfights, YAY!).
Yes these cards get semi balanced when you introduce the other retarded shit, however that makes this game a fight between the have and have nots: Unless you're a 10 year PT winner going against a guy in his first ever MTG match, you'll never lose to a cheap deck outside of mana screw or RDW. And even then RDW isn't THAT good. It's just the amount of people who desperately need a cheap deck makes it work.
MTG takes skill in the same way that putting my pin number into a credit card machine takes skill.
October 8, 2013 2:34 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #6
Wow Bainshie. You're the kind of person we're talking about. If you think what you said is really true, then why do you even play Magic?
Also, Jace, Memory Adept is only around $6. If that's too expensive for ya, just stick to pauper.
October 8, 2013 3:04 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #7
Bainshie: Apparently you don't know power balance well to think all the planeswalkers are broken. You apparently don't know Wizards that well either to think they introduced the walkers for money. The ONLY broken planeswalker is Jace, the Mind Sculptor . All the others are just powerful. Also Wizards has been printing a lot more stuff that hits planeswalkers (Dreadbore , Hero's Downfall , Magmaquake ). Not based around skill? Maybe you didn't read MY posts. My friend complains his deck sucked when I was beating him. We switched decks and I still decimated him, even with the "crappy" deck he had. It is luck but skill plays a role as well.
October 8, 2013 3:11 p.m.
DimirQueen says... #8
Bainshie, I don't think that's true at all. My boyfriend gives me his FNM winning decks to make me better at putting together plays, and still beats me with my decks when I've never gone to FNM with them. You're just the kind of person everyone is talking about, I think. To say that MTG requires no skill is actually pretty ignorant.
October 8, 2013 3:13 p.m.
This is the price (HA) we pay for a strategy game that is formed of collectible items. I have described games like Magic as being like chess, but you bring your own pieces and board squares to the table. If that were how chess were played, you can bet any money (HA) that there would be an economy to it. Magic is no special case in this. ...not that anyone was claiming it was. Just an interesting note.
I am conflicted on this. And the conclusion I have personally come to is, I will play Limited. I don't really have any desire to put the time and money investment into building a properly competitive Constructed deck. I play casually, yeah, but so long as the people are play with are on the same page as me - or at least reading from the same book - it doesn't become a problem.
Something I have noticed is the love for singleton rares. My partner has spent very little on singles, but among them have been some powerful Mythics. Now, when these get dropped and I "NOPE" it right out of their with appropriate counters/removal ... well, I've seen feelings get hurt. New players get very attached to this highly vulnerable singleton rares. (Sidebar: my NOPE-factor was extra high when I started playing with this group, because I'd been out for a decade and never seen a PW before... we fear the unknown, so they say.)
I'm not really sure what I'm adding to the discussion overall here. I probably could afford to spend more on Magic, but I simply don't want to. Am I going to begrudge others for doing so? Of course not. Am I going to observe, and maybe even comment, on how other people choosing to spend more affects the kinds of decks they can build? Of course I am. I hardly think that's wrong of me. But, when I say comment on, I obviously don't mean throwing my toys out of the pram if I lose (or rubbing it in your face if I win ;)).
As for you competitive, investy-types finding ways to play with us mere mortals... There have been some good suggestions here. Build based on themes, or fun ideas. There was a thread somewhere, once, about designing decks like Intro Packs/Theme Decks. Give that a try. Build large decks to reduce your own consistency as a handicap. Mana starve or flood your deck slightly.
The last thing I'll say on this endless ramble: if you are dealing with someone who isn't investing in Magic, or any given thing... be considerate. Finance can be a very touchy subject for a lot of people, and if someone were to say "if you spent more you could be competitive", or "I mean such-and-such a card only costs X dollars"... well, particularly if its someone whose situation you know nothing about, it's best to err on the side of caution.
October 8, 2013 3:19 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon Yea totally.
Also, I took a $5 deck, won 15 PT's with it, while banging your mom and doing coke off Obama's forehead. After that I cured all cancer and all aids with my dick, and got made president of the world.
See I can make 'shit that didn't happen' up as well.
October 8, 2013 3:30 p.m.
DimirQueen says... #11
I think people just tend to get annoyed hearing the same thing over and over again. You almost always have to spend money to have a good deck. The cards that work really well together will get used more often, demand will go up, prices will go up. That's just how it works, unfortunately. So when someone says "I don't want to spend more than 10 dollars but I want to place at FNM," It's sort of silly is all. It's no offense to their financial position, but I think most people are just irritated that they'd have the audacity to think they could place with a super cheap deck. Everyone would be doing it, in that case. xD And even if they could, those cards in particular would skyrocket most likely and supply/demand would win again. Which is also why I don't have any fantastic decks. I don't care as much though.
October 8, 2013 3:34 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #12
@Bainshie]: Wow dude, cool your jets. For starters I don't make shit up. My friend DOES have an account here, and I'll gladly call him up right now to get on and tell you himself that I kicked his ass with both of his decks. Next time you wanna talk trash, how about you KNOW the person before doing so okay? Okay.
if you are dealing with someone who isn't investing in Magic, or any given thing... be considerate. Finance can be a very touchy subject for a lot of people, and if someone were to say "if you spent more you could be competitive", or "I mean such-and-such a card only costs X dollars"... well, particularly if its someone whose situation you know nothing about, it's best to err on the side of caution.
This is amazing, and probably the best thing I've heard. What a lot of pro players and big money spenders need to realize is not everyone HAS that kind of money. Some of us need food, clothing, water, a place to live, etc in order to even survive. Magic doesn't consume our lives to the point where we say "Yeah I want that 30$ Boros Reckoner so I'll starve myself for a week to get my playset." If it does please seek Magic Anonymous. I am not saying one needs to spend a ton of money, but that those who can afford 300$ decks need to be considerate to those who can't afford that one 30$ staple.
October 8, 2013 3:34 p.m.
DimirQueen says... #13
Bainshie, I mean, you do realize why cards are expensive, right? Players have to make the cards work, the cards win championships and then everyone wants to buy those cards and the prices go up. Skill is certainly an important ingredient of the process. O_o
There are also different types of magic players as well. Some only care about winning, some want to get their combos off and aren't concerned with taking the Ws, and some just enjoy playing in general. I think it's important to remember it's just a game. :/ There's no reason to get so worked up about it.
October 8, 2013 3:37 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #14
So basically what Bainshie is saying is "I'm the bad player who complains about the game being driven by $$ and I'm offended that you've called me out on my bullshit."
Like I said, it takes both time and money to be truly competitive. Maybe you still need to put some more time into it first.
October 8, 2013 3:58 p.m.
So basically what Rhadamanthus is saying is: I'm a bitch with aids who plays magic using my mommies credit card via all that money from their kiddie porn sex ring. I don't care about skill as long as I'm wining with my MasterCard (tm).'
Also, I very much doubt it takes an amazing amount of skill to make a card like Elspath or any of the Jace's work (OMG do I play this card and win or not! this decision is too hard for me!)
October 8, 2013 4:05 p.m.
So you're exactly what this thread is about. Angry 9 year olds who bitch and complain when anyone has a deck worth more than theirs because you can't play the game and you're looking for things to blame that on.
October 8, 2013 4:09 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #17
So was that comment supposed to prove you're not a butthurt dumbass?
October 8, 2013 4:11 p.m.
As a player who has dumped enormous amounts of money into this game, it takes skill before money to win. It takes money to win consistently. I don't win, I play with some of the best decks, but I only have about 6 months of modern playing experience (I played many years ago and was decent), I'm getting better, I suspect to be better in a year or two I'll be better than I ever was as I learn something every time I play.
Skill is more important in this game than money and that's the simple fact Bainshie.
October 8, 2013 4:12 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #21
Bainshie it takes a good amount of skill to maneuver a planeswalker correctly. Do I use that minus ability to get a good effect or raise his loyalty with the plus ability to keep him out longer and get to his ultimate? Do I have enough control or board presence to successfully use my plaeswalkers abilities to their full extent? These are all things one has to think about when using a planeswalker, cause one wrong move could be the end of it. Stop acting like a child and be mature. Either discuss in a relatively calm fashion, with valid points and not insults, or gtfo
October 8, 2013 4:21 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #22
@Bainshie The best resource you can have as a Magic player is not money. It's having a bunch of people around who are willing to play with you, so you can practice and get better. When you act like an ass, you're cutting yourself off from that resource.
October 8, 2013 4:29 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #25
More than likely is, as said person has not replied yet and seems to be MIA now.
October 8, 2013 5:07 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #26
or just how ridiculous everything He-who-shall-not-be-named is saying lol or they're just a dramatic 10 year old...
October 8, 2013 5:09 p.m.
I'm a very new magic player who started on the iPad app and then bought a bunch of cards off eBay and showed up to FNM. I really like limited because I get packs & cards and then I trade the cards I get that I don't want for cards I do want. I pulled a Voice of Resurgence but I'm building an extort deck so I traded it with a very seasoned player for $30 worth of cards that he said would help my deck. Being friendly and having a smile can go a long way! Today I pulled a Stormbreath Dragon from a pack I found in my purse (I must have won it at the release) and will trade that for more cards I need. Between my initial eBay purchases & event fees I've spent maybe $100-$150 so far but I'm having fun. Actually sorry. I did just decide to build an angel EDH deck and spent $60 on 50-something cards for that. So $200 for something I enjoy. As an adult that doesn't seem awful. I have just as much fun losing as I do winning and so far I have always won SOMETHING at FNM. Now I don't know if that's just my store being generous with prizes or what sometimes I win a foil promo, sometimes a pack sometimes a life counter. The right attitude will get you much more than what $ can buy. You will meet new people, have fun & learn from players with more skill.
October 8, 2013 6:17 p.m.
ANother point, weather wizards prints a million op planeswalkers or a million lands, theyre making the same money essentially, a card sells for $90, wizards made their dollar or two on the booster that it contained, sure sets with great cards sell more boxes, but still theyre making the same per box/pack not the $$$ that people make from selling individuals
I actually traded a godless shrine (had 5) to a kid that needed it for a about 80 white sleeves i needed for ascension deck since i otherwise spent 8/10 on the sleeves, but he had and he needed the shrine since he can barely get tournament fees, and never buys cards over $1
I do love ebay though for big ticket purchases, I can usually find dual lands at good deals, which is at or below the price my LGS buys them, so i can use them but if i get in a money bind, i can quick sell for my money back if i dont want to try and private sell
October 8, 2013 9:18 p.m.
one of my LGSs, sold FTV20 for $40+tax because he said he cares about the players, and refused to sell to anyone who mentioned ebay, resell, etc
October 8, 2013 9:19 p.m.
When I got back into magic and started playing at FNM, I saw Stuffy Doll for the first time, and instantly fell in like with it. I had to play with it in a deck and do well.
After 3 weeks of playing Standard with it, trading, reshaping the deck idea, I finally came out with a deck that won FNM.
The deck was Naya colors (Though I didn't know the term at the time), used Stuffy Doll , Primordial Hydra , Blasphemous Act , Avacyn's Pilgrim , Somberwald Sage and a bunch of cheap removal... the only "more expensive" cards I had were 1x Gavony Township , 1x Kessig Wolf Run , and 1x Mikaeus, the Lunarch ... all of which I traded for. The only dual land I had was a Rootbound Crag I already had from one of those pre-constructed Sliver decks.
People who saw it for the first 2 weeks thought I was too much of a novice and didn't really know how to make a strong deck. On the third week, I won... even against the all too common Delver of Secrets Flip decks which were being played at the time.
Now any deck I make, win-or lose, the following week, people will sideboard against what I was playing because they know I am likely to make it work.
Your deck doesn't need to be $$$, it needs to be !!!. Think it through, strategize, and build with what you know and like... and think about what others are likely to be playing. - I look at "net-decks", not for ideas of what to play, but to see what other people are probably playing (those same players who are simply "buying" their decks)... It helps me stay one step ahead of them. Knowing what they play means I can find inexpensive cards that stop them cold. (example: If everyone is likely playing Blue/X control, I may mainboard 1 Gainsay - knowing scry can help prevent a 'dead card' - , and sideboard 3 more.)
October 9, 2013 8:51 a.m.
Quadsimotto says... #31
My first time back at FNM I let the veterans of the place where I play know they were going to stomp me. I also told them that i had cards on the way and that my return would prove to be more formidable.I know it is an expensive hobby but when compared to other hobbies its pretty much linear in my mind. Whether you play golf or ride dirt bikes or play cards or whatever you have to make some investments in it eventually if you hope to gain any true skill at it.The difference between myself when i first started collecting and now is that now i actually some disposable income to put towards the building of decks i would like to play.So in an answer to the topic. I do not know what i would say to a person complaining about not having the money for cards. I might get annoyed but i would probably just be happy that won a game cause my first outing to FNM was a beating. And i know that the regulars did not take me seriously..Ready for Redemption.. Cmooon OCT17 get me out of this country and home to the US.October 9, 2013 8:58 a.m.
Wizard of the Damned says... #32
THE Wizard has to say this, HE will willing to put his 50 dollar deck up against any other deck and while I may not win, my opponent will feel the sting of my phyresis and will definitely has a run for his coin. Skill play a MAJOR part of the game where money only supplements since you have the better, more expensive cards
October 9, 2013 12:55 p.m.
Show me any $2 deck that has won a PT, and I'll concede that money doesn't matter in this game.
Until then, I'm right, you're all wrong, and you all probably have aids, and touch little kids while wearing Hitler costumes.
October 9, 2013 1:10 p.m.
USADarksol says... #34
I spent almost $40 on 2014 Core Set Packs and got almost all rares. After some trades and some bargaining i have this:2 - Liliana of the Dark Realms 1 - elspeth (Theros)Not bad right? you really don't need a million dollars to do anything in MTG just friends who have a million dollars! JK LOL ;)
October 9, 2013 1:15 p.m.
Bainshie show us a player without skill and a deck worth $$$ has won a PT.
October 9, 2013 1:21 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #36
Epochalyptik: Can we like, have Bainshie banned or something? I mean, considering the insults and flame posts he's been making is highly offensive and very.....what's the word? You know, where you say things that shouldn't be said on a forum that's open to the public of all ages?
October 9, 2013 1:23 p.m.
haha that might explain why he suddenly stopped responding lol
October 9, 2013 1:48 p.m.
i love watching SCG opens and anything wizards broadcasts online, i learn so much and find out new ways to think, "why would you block like that if your going to just selesnya charm and exile it? ohhh to see if he was going to ghorclan it for all the trample damage, turning the 2 for 1 into a 3 for 1"
October 9, 2013 2:11 p.m.
Ah, nothing says 'I have a small dick and enjoy touching little kids', like using a banhammer.
And you want me to point out someone with no skill and a big $$$ deck that won PT, how about all of them? Unless you can define skill for me.
And on a more serious note, it is rather interesting that nobody on any magic website has ever been able to define what skill actually is in this game. You go to chess, and there are books on the subject, counter strike, Dota, SC2, football, playing a musical instrument. Every single hobby or event bit of skill shown usually has what it takes to win and not to win written down to practically mathematics. Yet with magic, outside of deck building (Which does seem to have some skill if you're trying to brew), nobody seems to talk about actually playing the game in the same way as you may talk about chess.
October 9, 2013 2:38 p.m.
KrazyCaley says... #42
He's making sock puppet accounts. If you see someone suspiciously similar showing up here or elsewhere, tag me and Epoch and whichever one of us is around will come handle it.
October 9, 2013 3:22 p.m.
Shadoh.net says... #45
I play at a new store, that has a pretty good regular base, several more experienced players, several average players, and a few newbies. Most of the people in each of these categories have very little extra income, thankfully most of us sit down with our new players and look through their decks, offering help on basics of construction, and helping build their slower decks into a viable deck for our meta. They don't tend to make top 3, but they place sometimes, and everyone is a good sport. We did just lose 3 of lower end players, they were fun people but they didn't have a good understanding of competitive play. Hope they come back around, I'm trying to convince my store to do some Peasant, Pauper formats so we can lower the price a little for most people. Either way I think a good store base, and helpful regulars can help the new people out, I often open up my collection of commons/uncommons to people if they need a few cards to perk up their decks, I've been blessed to have the additional income to have a lot of random cards, giving back seems like the right thing to do!
October 11, 2013 12:44 p.m.
Someone at my school plays a $400 Legacy-competitive deck at the school's Magic Club, and taunts people with it saying that he's so good no one wants to play him. Everyone hates him, but the supervisor's not allowed to have him kicked from the club. Though I am vice-president and my friend is president, so we're trying to get something like a vote together to kick him out. If we get him out the whole atmosphere would become so much better.
Basically, I hate assholes who are arrogant and Spike. I have some Spike friends who can control themselves, so I don't hate Spikes. I just hate asshole Spikes.
October 11, 2013 8:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #48
@acbooster: You don't hate asshole Spikes. You hate assholes. Being a Timmy or a Johnny wouldn't excuse being an asshole.
October 11, 2013 8:49 p.m.
The best thing to see is the look on his face after kicking his ass with Plague...squirrels?. Cheap deck that can win.
October 11, 2013 8:50 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #50
And of course Epochalyptik makes another genius revelation. Can we just call you Magic God from now on? :P
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #1
@xlaleclx: Way to be immature .__. Keep your mind out of the gutter man.
@fluffybunnypants: Yeah I have that same problem with my friend at times. Although, it isn't that my deck is expensive, just that he thinks the decks suck (cause I help him try to improve on his decks, and I do better than he does with them :D)
@DimirQueen: I ALMOST agree with you completely. "just needed one more card" is the one thing I can honestly say isn't an offensive remark or complaint (unless they're saying it in a dick way). Sometimes you really only needed that one card or that one last turn to win the game.
October 8, 2013 1:15 p.m.