The cost of playing magic
Economics forum
Posted on Oct. 7, 2013, 1:20 p.m. by SharuumNyan
I'm increasingly hearing comments, online and at the LGS, that sound like this.
"I want to play standard, and I want to win, but I don't want to spend more than $50 on my deck."
or
"Expecting magic players to spend hundreds of dollars on a deck isn't fair to people who don't have that much extra income."
or
"You only beat me because you can afford that playset of Voice of Resurgence and I can't!"
What do you say to people, especially those who are new to Magic, when they make comments like this? I don't want to alienate anyone from the game, but at the same time I'm getting a little annoyed with people who believe that they're entitled to be competitive without paying for a competitive deck. Some of them are total jerks about it.
Epochalyptik says... #2
Don't get me wrong. From my experience, Spikes are the most likely of the three kinds of players to also be assholes. But that's based on their personalities and not the fact that they're Spikes.
October 11, 2013 8:55 p.m.
Exactly. The fact that they're a Spike just means they play to win. Perfectly fine to do that, but only if you win with grace. Win the game, and be polite about it. If you play to win and just be an overall jerk the whole time, no one will want to play with you.
October 11, 2013 8:59 p.m.
Enlightened_Jedi says... #4
dont really have much to comment on the topic, but being a new player to magic after a 5 year hiatus this is an interesting read.
and let me tell you. Slowly having to build up trade material (which is the poor man's best option to get cards) and come to the fact that as a new player you most likely are not as good as you perceive, and like many have stated having the best deck doesnt mean an automatic win, is probably one of the biggest hurdles I think most new players go through. In my opinion, build what you can with what you have in the beginning, have fun, make some friends buy a couple boxes to get some trade material, and singles here and there. All the while paying your dues, and over time it smooths out for us newbies.
it really is fascinating to look back and reflect and just watch other players play, and to see how detrimental actual experience and strategy and skill play a part.
one of the things I love about the game.
October 12, 2013 12:44 a.m.
On the subject of being as good as you perceive, there was an online survey a couple years ago that I believe was done by Wizards, which included asking players to rate where they think they fit in among other magic players.
The choice "Above Average" was chosen by something like 80% of people. Pretty much everybody thinks they are better than most other people.
October 12, 2013 2:28 a.m.
haha yea i remember my first few decks i always won a wooden spoon booster yay for random booster :P but yea i learnt alot and had fun and also collected a few rares and stuff which i have sunk into my new FNM deck first place here i come mwahaha
October 12, 2013 2:56 a.m.
@Devonin: It's known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect and there's been quite a bit of research and study into the phenomenon. It's even more common in the workplace, where people think they should be compensated for their "above-average performance."
October 12, 2013 5:55 a.m.
Oh I know all about Dunning-Kruger. It is just amusing to see such an obvious example of it.
October 12, 2013 8:48 a.m.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions quite so quickly about that survey.
If this was several years ago and if it was a volunteer sample where the people who had heard about the survey were folks who regularly participated in online MTG communities then there is a fairly reasonable chance that those who responded actually were better than average. It depends on how the survey was distributed. If every MTG player wasn't really equally likely to have taken it then it probably wasn't a representative sample of all MTG players.
People involved in online MTG communities are probably more likely to be more "up on the rules" in greater nuance and detail. They are more likely to be the kind of avid fan who watches pros playing on video and learns from it. They are more likely to have heard of certain epic or infinite combos or deck archetypes. Especially if this was several years ago - this would not be necessarily representative of just any MTG player at a random LGS event - including all the kids and such who wouldn't have been likely to have their own personal computer half a decade ago.
Yes - Dunning-Kruger is a thing but not every thing.
October 12, 2013 9:08 a.m.
Going by the rules threads and deck discussion threads in virtually every online magic community I've seen, they seem to have no shortage at all of people who really have no idea what they are doing, and who aren't "up on" much of anything.
Plenty of people in these communities don't really know how to play all that well. I'd say the data is more accurate than you want to give it credit for.
October 12, 2013 9:18 a.m.
you can't assume anything unless you know exactly how the study was conducted. Whether your talking about this specific one, or any other survey ever taken. Also basing your opinion on every online magic community YOU'VE seen is just another example of how the sample base can be inaccurate. Going by the rules threads (like the Q&A on this site) isn't an accurate representation of how knowledgeable that online community is either, as the more knowledgeable MTG players are less likely to be the ones asking questions on the rules.
October 12, 2013 9:31 a.m.
I am not saying that the data was or was not representative - I had an important "If" in there. I was only pointing out that that number alone and unqualitified (80% reporting above average skill) is insufficient to conclude anything - especially with the kind of certainty you seem to have about it - because it is actually possible that they got a sample of players from online and that there could be an overall difference between online community members and the general player base.
Even if you consider new players - consider someone who found their way to an online community, asked a question, and got an answer - versus a kid who wouldn't know where to find the online community - wouldn't know to ask a question - and certainly didn't have Q&A sections to pour over and would be highly unlikely to stumble across discussions about advanced playing strategies or deck-building.
I just am not convinced that a sample of self-selected individuals involved in an online community who regularly visit MTG related websites is necessarily representative of an "average" MTG player.
And this is just "above average" that we are talking about - not necessarily "pro-tour-winning" or "systematically placing at FNM" (i.e. "above average" isn't necessarily "good"). If you consider that the average would have to be taken over a group that includes all kinds of new players and players who drift in and out of the game and players who don't take time to read about the game in between playing ... you may want to adjust what you think of as "average" maybe? (That is another issue with the question that makes it hard to draw meaningful conclusions - is average measured by FNM winnings or something else?)
It certainly could be Dunning-Kruger. But it could also be an actual difference inadvertently measured between MTG online community member players and other players because of the method of sampling used. It is probably a little bit of both and without more information, I would be careful about drawing a strong conclusion about it.
October 12, 2013 9:33 a.m.
MonsterFinder221 says... #13
My budget is usually tight. (about $5 a week) but sometimes when i see a really amazing card like Pyromancer's Gauntlet (Relatively speaking.) i add an extra buck or two to my budget. because at the end of the year, it all adds up.
October 12, 2013 9:52 a.m.
on average it costs 125$ a booster box, That's 36 boosters, a guaranteed 36 rares, with the chance of foil rares. if you want to play, you will spend at least that much to get into the game.
Now take that 125$, that could get you a competitive deck you just have to decide where to min / max you funds.
Now will take .... edh, I've been collecting for 15+ years, I build a deck, put it up here its worth 150$ not bad. deck is very competitive. now i have 7 EDH decks all very competitive no proxy's no taking decks apart to build the next one. I have alot of cards.
The biggest issue is you will not always get the copies of a card that you want, or its such a good card the prices inflate and only those who pull or those who have fat wallets get it. This is unfortunate but it is the way of a "collectable" game.
Now you have to decide. How much do you really like Magic cards.
do you love playing it? do you dream of it? are you an addict?
is it worth working your "butt" off to get a career; that enables you to participate in the hobby you enjoy?.
If your young, stay in school goto university get a good Career. you can buy your own cards off ebay. If your not good in school but good with your hands, get a trade, 23-92$ an hour depending the trade. Now you can buy your own cards.
(don't flame me for this one) are you angry? need to get your frustration out? Join the army. they do fun stuff, and alot of NOT fun stuff. and depending what MOC you pick in 5 years you will come out with a trade, and some university equivalent credits. If you like it you can stay FOREVER!!!!
As much as I love Magic cards, its not life.
October 12, 2013 12:37 p.m.
After coming back to magic from a long gap, ice age to return to ravnica if you were wondering I found that the best way to get back in was to take my lumps and slowly improve my standard deck every week. In the first couple of months at FNM I rarely won a match and those I did it was mainly luck. Surely enough through trading and helpful pointers from better players at the store my deck improved and I did not have to spend anymore money on it than I could afford/want to. Yeah people still beat me and the decks they run are more expensive than mine but am happy with my play and my deck and now the newer players ask my advice on their decks so it has come full circle. The only piece of advice that I give out is not to expect to win every game at the start as it takes time to get used to the transition from kitchen table magic to fnm or anthiing competitive.
October 12, 2013 8:58 p.m.
Something I find odd is, it appears that everyone assumes that only new players don't have the disposable income to buy the expensive cards. As, I keep seeing all the suggestions about how it's tough to start out and you just have to learn and trade to get the cards you want if you can't afford them and you can't just expect to start playing and be great. But, just because someone isn't a noobie doesn't mean they are capable of going out and buying whatever cards they want. Also, someone without the means to buy whatever cards they want most likely won't have a ton to trade, so telling them to trade for what they want isn't always the answer to not being able to buy them. People trade for things that they want., so, if you don't have what they want you can't just go out and trade for whatever cards you want, because no matter how nice some people are they're not going to give you their most valuable cards just to help you out.
Also, on another note, to sit here and tell people that it's not the cards that win games it's a person's skill is NOT accurate. Now I'm not gonna sit here and argue that skill doesn't matter because anyone with half a brain knows that's not true. No matter what cards you have you still have to know how and when to play them. With that being said, the cards you have are important. The best cards in the game are going to be the more expensive cards. It's supply and demand, people are going to seek out the best cards and the more people do, the more their price will be. If you took the #1 and #2 ranked player in the world (so skill isn't an issue) and told one he has access to all of the best cards (the more expensive cards) and told the other that he has to build a budget deck and then had them play each other 100 times, who do you think is going to be the one that wins consistently? Obviously the guy with access to the best cards. The guy with the budget deck will win some, I'm sure, but you can't win consistently if you don't have access to the good cards, that why they are the good cards. This is where people who have experience, but don't have a ton of disposable income, get frustrated. Then that statement "you only beat me because I can't spend a few hundred dollars on my decks" could quite literally be true. So, no matter how much you want to tell people that all it takes is experience/skill and then their budget decks can be just as good as the expensive decks. Remember that if the cards in those budget decks were capable of consistently winning games then they wouldn't be cheap/budget cards because then those would be the cards that everyone was trying to get and naturally their prices would go up.
October 12, 2013 10:25 p.m.
@abenz419 so true.
I've made a 2013 block deck, that practically plays its self my 8 year old plays it and beats me. its a red black speed deck with the highest cost of 3-4 mana most spells being 2 mana. it is a great... test deck always running the same way.
October 12, 2013 10:34 p.m.
@abenz419: When we tell people to trade for stuff, we're talking about trading away their winnings. Or trading up (a la "pack to power"). The thing is, I'd be scared to play against Jon Finkel using his draft deck with my Legacy or Modern deck.
You can do a lot with just $10 to $20 in Magic. No, you can't win a Pro Tour. But yes, you can make top 8 or top 4 at a LGS, win some prizes, then rinse and repeat. The key is making the best of what you have and sticking to one deck until you can expand your card pool.
A lot of budget players don't realize this and try and play knock-off versions of expensive decks, then fail. You can't build Esper Control, for example, without Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict . But you'll see people try it anyway. It's better to build Turbo Maze's End for $20, win some events, then start trading for pieces to play Esper. Or build a mono-color aggro deck.
Even better is to play in Limited formats, where there's a large prize pool, the entry is low in comparison to competitive Standard, and it rewards good players. $120 gets you into 10 booster drafts, where you can win a lot of prizes, get good pulls, and have some decent cards to choose from for making a new deck. This is in comparison to a tier 2 Standard deck that may not see any return upon investing into the format.
October 13, 2013 2:39 a.m.
@sylvannos Your missing the point. Someone who doesn't have a ton of extra income can't go out and play in a draft every week, even if it is only $12. That means they don't win lots of prices, don't necessarily get good pulls, and might not have decent cards to choose from for making a new deck. Your P2P isn't a really good example because ask anyone who has done it, it takes a lot of knowledge and trading skill to take nothing and turn it into something. Like I said before, if you want cards that other people have, you need stuff they want in order to make a trade. Also, just assuming that someone can go and place top 8 or top 4 at their LGS and win some prizes to trade is ridiculous. At my LGS it's a constructed standard round robin tourney every FNM. There is quite a few people there so pretty much the only way to win a price is to go 4-1 or better. So the person without much of a disposable income isn't going to just go up there and place top 8 or better and be able to trade off their winnings, and then rinse and repeat as you put it.
October 13, 2013 8:30 a.m.
dr-thunder says... #21
My two cents on the topic - assuming anyone cares :)
I've just started playing Magic again after a 14 year absence from the hobby. Used to play with my two brothers, then we all just kind of gave it up. In August though we broke out the old shoe boxes, made some decks, played some games and were hoked once again. Why? BECAUSE IT'S A GREAT GAME! Simple as. Now we're all building new decks and starting to play in local gaming groups.
I don't have much cash to spend, but I'm enjoying playing! That's the important thing! Some people I've played have been rather condescending, in a 'what do you think you're going here playing a deck with that Orzhov Guildgate in when you could be playing a Godless Shrine ?', but mostly they're quite gracious and it's fun.
My biggest gripe though is this: I don't feel that Magic is a Trading Card Game anymore. Indeed, it's even called a Collectible Card Game now. Because trading just isn't that important in a day and age that includes ebay and other online Magic shops. Now, please don't burn me at the stake for that comment, but some context. I've made a Vampire deck. I wanted 4 Stromkirk Noble s, which I think are great. And I got all 4 for about 3.50 pounds with shipping (about $5). That just seems a more efficient and cost effective way than buying boosters in the hopes of getting cards to trade. Of course, you may get rares that are 'worth' much more than the price you payed for the booster, but it's a huge gamble.
In short: yes, money makes a big difference, but doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game. I don't play, and have no real interest in playing, in tournaments. For me it's just a fun game to play with friends and other people. I'm not going to be winning prizes that I can trade. I'm not going to be buying booster boxes for 100 pounds to trade. I'll invest slowly and build up specific decks bit by bit and hopefully one day will have the deck to win an event. Should I decide to enter :)
October 13, 2013 9:39 a.m.
@dr-thunder that's great, and if that works for you and is what you want to do then no one is gonna knock you for it. Some people just aren't interested in playing in any kind of competitive environment. IMO, this topic is more about those who do want to be competitive though, because someone like you who is playing purely for fun either 1. probably won't be at a FNM in a competitive environment in the first place and 2. if you did go just for the sake of going you probably wouldn't be making comments about how you can't be competitive because you can't afford the best cards. The people who are making those comments though, want to be competitive. If you have two people of equal skill, the guy who can afford the best cards will do better and be more consistent than the guy who can't. That's where the frustration of losing too someone simply because of their income and how much they can afford to spend on certain cards comes into play. In your example about Stromkirk Noble , your right it's probably easier to just go out and spend the $5 to get them, as that was probably the easiest way to get 4 of them because trading for them individually isn't easy as most people don't carry around a binder full of $1 cards to just swap for other $1 cards they probably don't want. But, look at something like Voice of Resurgence (which was mentioned in the OP of the topic), it cost $160 to go and get a play set of them. That's a big difference than the $5 you spent. Not everyone can go out and just purchase them, and then still be able to acquire the rest of the stuff needed for their deck. This is why everyone keeps saying trade what you have for what you want. For some reason everyone acts as though this is an easy task and all you have to do is go down to your LGS say you want to trade for something and you'll walk out of there that day with them, but in order to trade for them that means you not only need some cards that are valued around the same $160 price range, but the person trading away the Voices also has to value the cards they would get in return. You say, you'll just build slowly bit by bit, but someone who's trying to competitive in the standard format can't really afford to take several months in order to put together a deck. For instance, those Voice of Resurgence are going to rotate out in less than a year. If it takes you a few months to get them and the rest of your deck it would essentially be a waste of your time as it won't be long before you can't use them anymore. Again, I'm not knocking you for not wanting to be in that type of environment, just pointing out that a lot of the advise being given by people doesn't really apply to someone who doesn't have the disposable income, but has experience and wants to be competitive.
October 13, 2013 10:24 a.m.
dr-thunder says... #23
@abenz419: good points that you make there :) I'm totally behind you on the topic of really expensive cards; guess I did go off topic a bit, apologies for that. I am quite a competitive person and don't like losing, but I don't mind losing as much when I think the person who I'm playing has invested far more money into his deck than me. That maybe sounds kind of bad; I'm not looking to make excuses for playing badly (which I do do on occasion).
Most of my friends have played Magic at some point or other, but none of them do now. When asked, the answer is pretty much always the same: 'because it's an arms race with the person who invests the most coming out on top'. I don't think it's quite that simple, but that is the crux of it for many people. You can't blame people for wanting to win tournaments and therefore buying the best possible cards they can find to do so, but this cost factor does unfortunately turn off a lot of people from the game. Which is a bit sad.
I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I agree that a lot of the advice simply doesn't take into account that some people want to play and think they have at least a chance but don't want to or can't pour money into the hobby. Obviously different people will play the game in different environments and get different things out of it. Guess there's no magic (sorry, accidental pun..) solution here :)
October 13, 2013 10:48 a.m.
@dr-thunder I wasn't getting at you for being off topic or anything like that, because you definitely wouldn't have been the first to do it. I think what has kind of bugged me about this whole topic is that it seems to be people complaining that some players want to be competitive even though they don't have the money for the best cards. Then they give their responses as though they are trying to prove that you don't have to spend money (or have the best cards) in order to be competitive because you can trade for what you need. But most of their advise/reasoning only applies to players who have ways of acquiring the initial cards to start trading with. A booster pack only cost like $4+tax, but even if you get an awesome expensive rare/mythic, that one cards isn't enough to get you everything needed to build a competitive deck, so you still need other means to acquire the stuff you need to complete a build as you can't rely on getting a tradeable rare in every booster pack you open. Also the idea of constantly trading up, like in the pack 2 power reference someone made, isn't viable for everyone because trading like that requires skill/experience. In those situations you can't just trade for even value because you have to acquire cards that you can turn around and trade easily. That require a knowledge of the cards and the wants of other players.
October 13, 2013 11:23 a.m.
Like getting into any hobby, right away it's going to be a money sink.
When people ask me about getting into MTG I tell them that they'll have to start slow and not expect to win right away in competitive, and just to start casual, for fun. Then, once they have more to trade with, trade like a mad man to get what you want, so that you can be competitive. I've been trading for years and I still only have 2 Force of Will s. Lol
If someone complains about not winning in competitive because someone has the money to play competitive tell them this: Take some time, trade, and save up. Perhaps they spend all their extra money on MTG where you spend it on other things.
Sometimes I feel that way when I see a couple guys at my FNM having big binders full of trade stock, and then I remember that I go out to eat, buy clothes, take weekend trips, etc, and they probably only spend their extra money on MTG.
October 13, 2013 5:05 p.m.
@abenz419: I think you're the one missing the point. We're not saying how easy it is to get a playset of Voice of Resurgence . Even people not working with a budget have trouble acquiring cards like that. What we're saying is play the best deck within your means and channel all of your time and resources into playing that deck.
There are plenty of viable decks that cost under $25 (Maze's End and RDW come to mind) that can get you into the top 8 at tournaments. There's guys in my area who do this. Keep in mind, we have two state champions, two Grand Prix winners, three guys who made top 8s at Pro Tours, and several PTQ winners/top 8 at my shop. In other words, you see budget decks playing against tier 1 decks.
There's a contradiction where you say:
"Your P2P isn't a really good example because ask anyone who has done it, it takes a lot of knowledge and trading skill to take nothing and turn it into something."
...which is exactly the point, it takes a lot of knowledge and skill in understanding the market to trade up. People who are good at the game are going to know how to generate value and get the most out of what they have. That has nothing to do with paying to win. That's a skilled player turning their skill into better cards. Likewise, I can draft fairly well and win a good chunk of prizes, then use my winnings as my entry for the next draft (which is how I get my own budget).
Seriously, if you can't afford an initial investment of $30 to play Magic, you probably shouldn't play Magic.
October 14, 2013 2:56 a.m.
simple solution. Run tournaments with a maximum value. Or just ban these outrageously broken cards.
October 14, 2013 3:02 a.m.
@MrKnify: That's a terrible solution. You can't ban cards based on their monetary value, it just increases the value of what's legal. Desecration Demon isn't $7-$10 because he's better than Falkenrath Aristocrat or Olivia Voldaren . He's in that price range because he's the best creature for his mana cost for the decks that need a giant beat stick. It's why he could be bought for less than $3 before Innistrad cycled out.
Pauper is one of the better formats for budget players, especially on paper where Cloud of Faeries isn't $7 like it is on MODO.
October 14, 2013 3:14 a.m.
@sylvannos so they should stop making these rediculous green white cards and move to another colour then.
this makes how many disgusting green/white cards that are too good to pass up...
or not make the cards so rare, let everyone get a chance at them. it is just a card game after all. I mean even the poor kids should have a chance :(
October 14, 2013 3:17 a.m.
MrKnify - I don't think you know what a broken card is. Voice of Resurgence
is an expensive card ($40 at SCG) because it's good and does a lot of stuff. It effectively shuts down control decks and creates an interesting metagame where neither Control nor Aggro (non-GW aggro to be exact) dominate. But it is not broken because it can be dealt with. You can put a Pacifism
to effectively neuter it in combat if you're playing W/R Aggro, or you can Voyage's End
or Disperse
it on your turn if you're playing control. Or, you could Cancel
or Dissolve
it. All of those cards are cheap and easily obtainable. Just because a card is expensive, doesn't mean it's broken.
Also, Elspeth, Sun's Champion
is $40 and not Green/White. Ok, fine, she is White, but what about Stormbreath Dragon
? He's $35 and not G/W.
October 14, 2013 3:29 a.m.
skill in trading, and skill actually playing magic are two different things. There was no contradiction there, as I was saying that all the advise everyone has gave saying just going out and trade for what you want isn't aimed at people who have the experience and desire to play competitively but don't have the extra cash flow and it's not as simple as everyone is trying to make it out to be. It takes a different skill set in order to do it, plus you need the initial cards of value to be able to trade for what you want, whether your trading for equal value or trying to trade up you still have to find someone who values what you have in order to acquire what you want. So acting as though you can build an entire deck while spending little to no money is ridiculous, because in order to trade for stuff that requires that you've already invested in other things so that you have something to trade away. It's not just as simple as opening up a booster pack and trading away whatever rare you get for what you want. Plus, no one wants to spend several months working to acquire all of the necessary cards for the deck they've designed. Especially in a format where things rotate out after 2 years.
October 14, 2013 3:43 a.m.
@JWiley129 thats not the point. I'm just saying that if so many people have this issue then they should make their own league with a ban list. I'm perfectly fine playing with the game the way it is. its just there has been a lot of favouring Green and White recently.
of course you can look at it the other way too, there are many other great cards out there but how many Fleecemane Lion , Loxodon Smiter , Voice of Resurgence , Polukranos, World Eater , Mistcutter Hydra .
these all have costs, and abilities that go above and beyond others. sure Thassa, God of the Sea is blue and there are a handful of other ones but not at the quantity that makes up those attached to g-w.
October 14, 2013 3:48 a.m.
@MrKnify: That's the thing though...it doesn't matter what cards they print, the supply and demand is going to dictate the market. Call of the Herd was $30 while it was in Standard, while Underground Sea was less than $20 a decade ago.
I do think powerful cards at mythic is just dumb, though, because of how much it jacks up the cost. If Voice of Resurgence was rare instead of mythic, it'd be $20 at best. But, because of the bump in rarity, it's worth $30. I shudder to think of what Restoration Angel and Thragtusk would have been at if they were mythic as well.
October 14, 2013 3:52 a.m.
or they could make all mythic rare types named legendary creatures to truly make them "MYTHIC RARE" (not yelling just pointing and jumping). there are other options. I for one favor the casual play similar to pauper.
common 4 of any kind. uncommon 2 of any kind. rare 1 of any kind. mythic rare only 1 per deck.
see its nice neat, interesting format just like EDH. but who am I to say "boo" about this. I just voice my opinion, and beliefs. You just voice your opinion and beliefs. whos wrong who is right???
NEITHER!
why? because its a made up game for strategy enthusiasts. I love magic, its great, yeah it sucks I wont spend x$$ on cards. but really it is just a game and people can get lucky.
October 14, 2013 3:58 a.m.
I'm actually going to go with money having a lot to do with who wins. Sometimes you can just be ahead of the curve and happen upon a very well positioned card before the masses catch on but magic is filled to the brim with bad cards which forces up the prices of good cards. I mean you don't have to be playing esper control to win games but in the end you aren't going to place in states with a budget deck. Sure you can win an fnm every now and then with a budget deck but in the end you are playing with an inherent disadvantage which no amount of skill can over come. That is actually the biggest difference between kitchen table magic and competitive magic. In kitchen table magic skill usually overcomes money because kitchen table player will stuff good cards into decks they have no business shoving them into and you can steam roll a lot of players with Bladetusk Boar. I've been playing magic for about 12 years and I make some pretty nice budget decks that can win fnm's but my brother actually has spare cash to spend on cards and has taken my cockatrice lists to make into real decks. He has repeatedly won fnm's at his local shops and has placed in states with my lists(he is also a pretty good magic player). Generally players who don't have money don't try and play standard for very long because it's frustrating and so they never get enough experience to really play well, but the fact remains that if you show up to fnm with a $10 deck you are going to get wrecked. It just so happens that the people who are experienced players are usually the people who could afford standard and if they are experienced and can't afford it they don't bother showing up (like me since I've been living of about half the "living wage"). The only exception would be a deck like a ravager-less affinity deck with Cranial Plating during Mirridon standard.(it also happens to be one of the best pauper decks)
October 14, 2013 4:38 a.m.
@abenz419: It's not ridiculous at all to think you can build a budget deck and get prizes for playing it. Here's two deck lists from the previous Standard format (before Theros rotated in) that could be built for under $30 when they won 4-0 in Standard Dailies on Magic Online:
The prize payout for going 4-0 at a Standard Daily? 11 friggin' booster packs, 6 packs if you go 3-1. There's a lot of stores in real life that give 5-3-1-1 for first, second, third, and fourth, respectively for playing in FNMs. Magic's roots are in playing your way to a better deck, which is why Richard Garfield incorporated ante into the original rules. It's still a game that rewards deckbuilding, good judgement of the local meta, and piloting over throwing money at cards and hoping that wins games.
October 14, 2013 5:34 a.m.
Chances are that if you don't have a lot of money, you have a lot of time. Time that can be spent/invested learning as much as you can about the game to see how these expensive cards can be countered. As a completely new Magic player I recognize myself a bit but I'm not really bothered about people having expensive decks as there are always cheap alternatives to cards and even if there aren't, there are cheap counters to them.
October 14, 2013 8:56 a.m.
@Rochard the reason those counters or ways around them are so cheap though is because they're not consistently effective. The cards in those decks are expensive because those are the cards everyone is seeking out, and if those decks were easily beaten by other things then people wouldn't be seeking those cards, which means they wouldn't be expensive cards (supply and demand). The point I've been making throughout this entire thread is that, even if you can build a budget deck that does good sometimes, you can't build one that is consistently good. The cards that are in decks that are consistent and can deal with multiple matchup issues are the cards that people want. The more people want a specific card the more the price goes up.
@sylvannos That's Magic online. In no way does that help someone build a better deck so they can be more competitive at FNM's. The point is to be able to build a deck that can be consistently competitive, which can't be done on a budget. Placing a FNM once every few months is no way to earn prizes that you can trade, especially since there is no guarantee that you'll open a booster pack with a tradeable rare. Like I said before, in a format where cards rotate out every 2 years, you can't afford to take several months to build one deck.
October 14, 2013 9:54 a.m.
MonsterFinder221 says... #39
Buy Dragon Shield sleeves, they almost NEVER break!
October 14, 2013 9:59 a.m.
@SharuumNyan Same thing happens to me! I'm finally viewed as a real opponent now because I'm known in my small magic community. But the "asking for a judge" on a rule thing happens every time.
October 14, 2013 4:14 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #41
The Blue Beatdown deck that won PTTHS was remarkably cheap to build. Note that I said "was," because Master of Waves is now up to $20 and so is Thassa, God of the Sea .
Anyway. That wraps up this thread rather nicely.
October 14, 2013 4:54 p.m.
Thassa, has been $20+ since theros was released, I have 3 (1 foil), so I'm hoping that with the results of PT Theros that her price is going to rise even more. That would make me happy!!!! lol
October 14, 2013 4:59 p.m.
@abenz419: lol? The decks are just as cheap in paper as they are online. Look at the decks that went 3-1 (i.e. the ones I linked to beat) or went 4-0. They're all competitive decks. Everything from G/B Control, Jund Midrange, RDW, Naya Blitz, Act 2, etc. If anything, playing online is more competitive than FNMs, where there's a lot less players and people know each other.
It seems to me you're in the group of people we're talking about who blame their losses on other people investing more into the game, rather than coming up with ways to play the best they can within their means.
October 14, 2013 6:14 p.m.
no, but I don't have tons of extra cash either. I fall somewhere in the middle, I can go out and get some stuff if I want it, but I have other obligations as well so I can't always go out and get everything I want. But, I don't play competitively. I have a family and other priorities. I only make it up to a FNM to play maybe once a month at best because it starts at 7. I have other obligations and can't always get up there at that time. All I'm doing is giving you facts because it's misleading to just tell people for very little money you can go out and get competitive decks. It's like you think just because a deck can place at a FNM every few months that you think that makes it a competitive deck. Your decks you've mentioned may be able to win a few games, but they aren't consistent. Which is the most important thing you need from a competitive deck. If they were more people would be after those cards, raising the prices of the cards in them and making them no longer budget decks. That's how supply and demand works. There's no way you actually believe online magic online is more competitive than FNM's either. Maybe some of the tournaments they have on there can be real competitive, but overall magic is far more competitive in person. The fact that you even mention that there are far less players only further proves my point. Which do you think is easier to win, a tournament that has 10 players in it, or one that has 100??? It's obviously the one with 10, regardless of how well the players know each other.
Most of the people who complain about the players who say "you only won because of how expensive your deck is" are really only complaining because they can't admit that having such a good deck makes up for some of their shortcomings as a player, and that if they couldn't afford a deck like that, then they'd never place at any FNM's.
October 14, 2013 7:12 p.m.
I am going to link a deck, I just threw it together with cards that I had to see what I could make.
I'm classing this as a budget deck as you should be able to make it for less then 50$
after play testing against last years Bant, and this years Dimir Mil (mine not others) and a few other decks that are fairly competitive, It has not lost. So I plan to run this at the next FNM I play at. (not this friday but next.)
Steam Izz it
@abenz419 This should help your woes, as its cheaper then a box of boosters.
October 14, 2013 7:28 p.m.
my woes???? i'm not concerned about building a deck. the decks I have I can afford and when I'm building new ones I can afford those cards as well. Like I said, I'm just simply pointing out that people who want to be competitive don't want a deck that can place once or twice every few months at a FNM. They want consistency. Telling people they can build a competitive deck for cheap doesn't even make sense. If that were the case there are 2 things that would happen. 1. No one would spend money on the expensive cards as they would become unnecessary, and 2. the so called "budget cards" wouldn't be cheap anymore because their prices would raise as more and more people sought out those cards to build those "budget decks". This has nothing to do with my money situation or anyone's for that matter. It's just a fact. If I didn't play magic, what I'm saying would still be true. As much as skill and knowledge of the game matter, so does the cards in your deck. That's why people pay for the expensive cards. If you take two people of equal playing skill and equal deck building skill, one with a low budget and cheap cards and one with a high budget and nothing but expensive cards. The guy with the more expensive deck will win more often than the guy with the "budget cards". Since everything except the deck's are equal, it goes to show you that having the better expensive cards makes a difference. Like I said before, if it didn't matter then no one would spend the money for them because they wouldn't be necessary to have. Tell me I'm wrong. Then explain to me why people would spend hundreds of dollars to put together a competitive deck when all they had to do was use nothing but cheap cards in order to be consistently competitive. Then tell me that none of you own any expensive cards because they would just be a waste of money, since you obviously don't need them as it's so easy to be extremely competitive without them.
October 14, 2013 7:54 p.m.
@abenz419 Then my friend I must apologize as I do not understand what the issue is. Is there something we can help with or are you just looking for a place to vent your frustrations?
October 14, 2013 8 p.m.
all I did was comment about how if someone is low on extra spending money that it's not as easy to just go out and trade for what they want because it requires having things that other people value in the first place. Then I was dragged into the discussion about how you don't need expensive cards to put together a competitive deck. Since then, all I've been doing is trying to point out that if you could build a so called "budget deck" to be consistently competitive then that's what people would be building because it wouldn't make any sense to spend hundreds of dollars on cards that you don't need. I've also been trying to explain that because of supply and demand if their "budget decks" that they keep pointing out were really that competitive then they wouldn't be budget decks because those prices would rise since more people would be seeking out those cards in order to build a good deck. Consistency is the most important thing to being competitive. Just because I can throw 60 random cheap cards together and beat the best deck available 1 out of 1,000,000 times doesn't make it a competitive deck. Winning a few games and placing at a FNM once, doesn't make it competitive. What people don't seem to understand is that I'm not just giving my opinion, what I've been saying is fact. There's a reason you don't see budget decks winning every PT, it's because when skill level and deckbuilding are even, it comes down to what cards you have and since people want the best cards, those naturally become the expensive cards.
October 14, 2013 8:21 p.m.
@abenz419 ah I understand, or at least I feel that I understand. you are saying a budget deck will never be competitive.
acbooster says... #1
Very true Epoch. I guess the Timmy and Johnny players are pretty mellow in my area. Every once in a while I meet an asshole at my LGS during an event, but other than that the only asses I deal with are the ass Spikes at school.
October 11, 2013 8:51 p.m.