Trading Up
Economics forum
Posted on Feb. 5, 2014, 6:22 p.m. by rache
Starting with a Sacred Foundry with the goal being to aquire a Liliana of the Veil . What's everyone think?
Sounds like Pack to Power. Not my thing, but good luck.
February 5, 2014 6:23 p.m.
AnagonLordofSnakes says... #4
Does it have to be a real liliana?
I will draw you a great fake liliana on top of a Dross Scorpion and we can call it even? ;D
February 5, 2014 6:26 p.m.
I've tried this - it doesn't work. People just won't go ahead with trades that aren't in their favour - especially when they can quickly check SCG for prices.
February 5, 2014 6:27 p.m.
It's like the parable of the straw millionaire. Except that it doesn't work.
February 5, 2014 6:27 p.m.
i know a lot of people that try to complete collections that make trades heavily in my favor for some things even when i tell them, which can help if youre able to pick up an even trade but ask for a couple bulk rare throw ins or so, and then try and trade them away at a bulk rare = $1 rate
prolly be much easier and doable then pack to power going only that far
February 5, 2014 6:31 p.m.
@AnagonLordofSnakes Yeah its gotta be a real one lol
@ChiefBell The thing is the trade up will be very gradual, like 50 cents to a dollar difference. I've found such small amounts rarely affect trades
@mckin Thanks for the advice man, I'll keep it in mind
February 5, 2014 7:02 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #9
If you are trading online, then the postage costs will ruin your day. And your budget.
February 5, 2014 7:33 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
@ChiefBell: That's not necessarily the case. I turned $1 into $250 fairly handily. It's doable if you're patient and good.
February 5, 2014 7:38 p.m.
@Schuesseled No budget, just doing it as an interesting project. I don't trade outside of the U.S. so postage costs are negligible.
February 5, 2014 7:39 p.m.
@Epochalyptik Was originally gonna post this in the economics forum but since its not discussing price persay I wasn't sure. Also what was your start and end card?
February 5, 2014 7:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
Elvish Archdruid into a foreign black-border Italian Volcanic Island .
February 5, 2014 7:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
It went something like this.
Elvish Archdruid
-> foil Daze
(yeah...)
foil Daze
and some small foils/C/U -> FBB Italian Bayou
FBB Italian Bayou
-> FBB Italian Volcanic Island
February 5, 2014 8:03 p.m.
I wanted to trade up slowly from a Vindicate but nobody was willing to even go a few dollars up.
February 5, 2014 8:21 p.m.
@Epochalyptik So you did it "fairly handily" by the expedient of ripping a dude off?
February 5, 2014 11:13 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
@Devonin: That's a harsh way of putting it, but I did trade to win.
February 5, 2014 11:26 p.m.
Dollar rare for a 50 dollar foil? I don't think it's a harsh way of putting it.
February 5, 2014 11:29 p.m.
thataddkid says... #24
70 dollar foil, dude. Maybe the guy was one of those people who don't care? This guy at the pre-release traded me his Pain Seer for 2 God-Favored General s even after I told him a million times he wasn't getting his value. I've dealt with those 'casual-only' people before and maybe the guy with the foil Daze was that kind of guy.
February 5, 2014 11:35 p.m.
I refuse to believe that anybody is so casual as to "not care" about 50:1 price differential (And it's actually more like a 90 dollar foil now, I was assuming this trade happened back around M12/M13 when maybe because the standard, the Archdruid was generously 2 or 3 dollars instead of 1)
February 5, 2014 11:44 p.m.
@Devonin Foil Daze is at 69.27 and yes we casual traders do still exist. During the shards block I cracked an Elspeth, Knight-Errant (then worth 50 bucks) then turned around and traded it for 2x Puca's Mischief (then worth around a dollar).
February 6, 2014 6:33 p.m.
MisterRoach says... #27
Some traders are willing to take a loss on a trade for something they really need/want. Although a 50 dollar deficit is a pretty damn big one. He must of not cared or REALLY wanted that archdruid
February 6, 2014 6:48 p.m.
I just have a hard time calling "Willfully allowing themselves to be ripped off" anything other than stupid.
Trade a 50 dollar card for a dollar jank rare....OR trade in the 50 dollar card to the store you cracked the pack in for 30 in credit, get your two jank rares, still have a lot left over.
You can play casually and deckbuild casually without just being stupid with money.
February 6, 2014 10:55 p.m.
saw a guy trade elspeth whens she was at 40 for a $5 lunch, easily couldve gotten more but you gotta eat somedays
February 6, 2014 11:28 p.m.
@Devonin Mtg card value is relative, seeing as how I had no use for the Elspeth but had a deck for the Mischiefs the Mischiefs were more valuable to me. Also at the time there were no shops close enough to me to have sold the card to.
February 7, 2014 5:18 a.m.
Yeh magic assets are fluid, not concrete so technically they're they're not worth anything. They're only worth as much as you want them and if you dont want them then they're worth a lunch or a bus ride or whatever.
February 7, 2014 6:09 a.m.
I'm not a guy to obsess over the exact value of a trade, or to demand that I always come out ahead in a trade. I -do- value utility over "market price" when thinking about trades. I trade down all over the place.
But to suggest that this secondary market which has proven more sustainable than plenty of stocks and bonds in terms of valuable things holding their value is completely irrelevant in the face of utility is naive. I mean, it seems Epochalyptik and others will happily rip you off to the tune of 800% because you seem to not care, so there will always be a market for sharks to profit off the backs of the apathetic, but at least acknowledge that it's that you don't care, and not some function of the economics of Magic.
You're telling me that the guy who wanted the 5 dollar lunch had NOTHING worth 5 dollars?
February 7, 2014 7:25 a.m.
Well you've sort of hit the nail on the head - magic is like a stock or bond, it's a promise of future wealth or a way of maintaining capital that may rise or fall. However, sometimes you trade away future investment for immediate need. It's a funny one because the promise of future wealth becomes irrelevant if you happen to desperately need a utility now.
However trading cards for cards is like playing the stock market - you're trading an intangible future asset for an intangible future asset. In which case people should really care more about the way they're handling themselves.
People mentioning utility and magic card together make me lol. No, you don't NEED to finish your FNM deck on time. Please don't be stupid and trde downwards. Treat magic like an investment and give it the respect it deserves. Trade like for like because at the end of the day 'need' and 'small piece of card' don't go together.
February 7, 2014 7:49 a.m.
Well, unless those last few cards in the deck make the difference between prizes or not. Losing 5 or 10 dollars in trades to make my deck win me 20 dollars in packs sounds perfectly reasonable. Though there's no way to know I wouldn't have won anyway.
I actually don't like people who treat Magic like an ACTUAL investment in the sense of "These cards are going to pay for my eventual kid's college or be a down payment on a house" but for sure it is silly to just willfully lose value when market values are pretty well considered "Fact" by most people.
The 40 dollar Elspeth for 5 dollar lunch person could have -absolutely- offered that Elspeth for 20 dollars and had that be accepted.
It's one thing to trade down for utility (I once traded about 500 dollars worth of revised duals for about 500 dollars worth of fetches, shocks, and other things which had a much greater net effect on my deck stability and performance [Mind you I only paid about 300 for the 500 worth of duals, so I still came out ahead either way]) and another to take much lesser value when even lesser value is trivial to obtain.
February 7, 2014 8:56 a.m.
SharuumNyan says... #35
I won't trade with people if I've heard about or seen them ripping off other people. It's not okay, but it is a fast way lose friends. It says something about you as a person. And bragging about it in a public forum...? Why would you want to advertise that?
February 7, 2014 9:02 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
Let's put this in context.
I'm perfectly happy to do an even trade. It doesn't matter to me either way. But if I sit down to trade with someone, and the other party is fine with the offer, then I'll take the value. I don't force people to do uneven trades, nor do I coerce them into trades they don't want to do.
Some will do either, or both, and I know several of them. That's not my MO, though. I realize there are users and players out there who have different opinions out there, but nobody's opinion is invalid. If you like to trade only if the deal is straight even, I can respect that. If you like to trade only for value, I can respect that (depending on how you do it, I may not agree with it, though).
As for why I brought it up, it's relevant. I have experience in P2P-style trading, and I can therefore offer some specific advice and detail in this kind of discussion.
February 7, 2014 12:18 p.m.
I don't really know why we're ragging on Epoch anyway. If someone accepts a trade then it's fair game. I'd be disappointed with his actions if the guy was somehow mentally defective but given that we're all sensible adults I think we can make our own choices.
February 7, 2014 12:22 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #38
But if someone is willing to trade a card to you, but obviously doesn't know the value of what they have, don't you feel guilty about ripping them off? I would.
Yes, it's the responsibility of the other party to know the value of cards. But I still think, morally, you have a responsibility to tell someone before they make a mistake. What's going to happen is that clueless person will later realize what happened, and there will be bad blood there. It's not worth it.
February 7, 2014 12:26 p.m.
That's really what it comes down to. Epoch hasn't given us enough detail to reassure us that this person actually understood the difference in price value they were accepting on. And since it seems highly illogical, once again, that someone would trade a 60 dollar card for a 1 dollar card when they could trivially get much closer to its actual value, the assumption is "They were ripped off" until proven otherwise.
And I'm not sure how "Got some guy to take a MASSIVE sucker deal" qualifies as "Has experience in P2P trading."
"Has experience in ripping dudes off, or getting hilariously lucky taking advantage of seriously bad traders" sure.
February 7, 2014 12:42 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #40
@Devonin A friend of mine got a Gofy off some kid for a handful of crap cards, and some resto angels. The other guy was informed of the value, and he did not care. Some people genuinely don't. What does it matter to you if a baseball is worth a million bucks if you have no way to sell it, if someone offers you a TV for that baseball, and you need a TV...
February 7, 2014 12:48 p.m.
Well aside from the fact that nobody -needs- a TV, I also just refuse to accept that something is -worth- a price in the secondary market, and yet you are unable to get anything even approaching that price.
It's one thing if you live in a small town and have a Beta Lotus or something, and your tiny little LGS hasn't got the cash or interest in moving it, but for the price of a Beta Lotus you can get on a frigging bus and go to a bigger city and sell it.
Desperate sales are a thing. Sometimes you need money. I got 11 revised duals, most of which tapped for blue, in seriously NM condition for 700 bucks. He could have gotten closer to 1000 if he'd put in some time and effort and sold them piecemeal, I GET IT.
BUT, in no world, knowing that the cards are worth 1000 dollars do you accept TWENTY dollars for them, no matter how badly you need 20 dollars. The differential is simply too great, and getting a percentage is so easy especially in a city of any size.
And at the end of the day, I don't even care if the person is made aware of the fact that they are seriously losing on a deal and say they are okay with it, my own sense of morality will not allow me to allow somebody to take that kind of loss.
I was playing at a Sealed event the other day, and my round 2 opponent was playing an unsleeved foil Elspeth. Apparently he barely even plays magic and just gives the cards to his buddy when they're done.
Not only did I make sure he knew the value of the card, I also gave him my own sleeves to use between game 1 and 2, to use for the rest of the night so he wouldn't damage the card, and brought him to the attention of the judge who offered him fair market value for the card after the event was over. I could have pretty easily said "If you're just giving them to your buddy later anyway, I could use that, you want this Trait Doctoring I got in my first pack instead?" and he'd probably have accepted. And seriously not felt like he'd been ripped off or like it mattered.
But I simply don't have it in me to take advantage of somebody like that.
February 7, 2014 1:10 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #42
P2P is about gaining value with each trade, regardless of how many steps it takes. I've been through the process.
As for my trades, the foil Daze came from a new player with old cards. I helped him with his Elf deck while everyone else was playing in the event, and he asked if I had anything that could help him. I had an Elvish Archdruid , and he handed me a pile of cards to look through. I asked him if he wanted anything else to make up the difference, he said no, and thanked me for the help.
As I said, I don't coerce people into deals.
Continually accusing a trader of ripping someone off is among the worst ways to insult them. Don't be presumptuous.
February 7, 2014 1:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #43
And it's irrelevant whether you think it's a bad idea or somehow impossible for people to not want every penny from their cards. Some people do still consider Magic a game. You're judging how people want to use their own cards based on your own metric, then using that judgment to accuse other people of being dishonest or wrong.
February 7, 2014 1:33 p.m.
SharuumNyan says... #44
"Continually accusing a trader of ripping someone off is among the worst ways to insult them."
Now you're just trying to make yourself look better by putting down people who have a moral issue with ripping off others. What you admit to doing IS ripping someone off in my definition.
Continually trying to trade up is one of the fastest ways to lose friends. But, in the case of people who don't care about scamming others, friendship probably isn't that important anyway.
February 7, 2014 1:35 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #45
@SharuumNyan: Actually, I'm not. If you read my last three posts, you'll see that I am not coercing anyone into anything. I asked the kid if he wanted to take anything else to make up the difference. He said no, so I accepted the trade. Simple as that.
Regardless of whether you think it's somehow wrong of him to not take more for his cards, wrong of me to not throw more cards at him, or whatever else is going through your mind, there shouldn't be a problem with a trade that both parties understand and accept - and especially not a problem from someone not involved in the trade itself.
If you adamantly believe that a mutually agreed-upon and understood trade is still one party ripping another party off, then that's a definitional problem on your part, and I can't help you with that.
February 7, 2014 2:06 p.m.
Did you make sure the kid -knew- that the difference he was being asked to make up as over fifty dollars?
February 7, 2014 2:21 p.m.
@Epochalyptik IE: From your version of the story, I am calling into doubt your claim that this was a mutually understood trade.
February 7, 2014 2:22 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #48
As I said, the trade was in the open. I don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities by writing it out in remedial terms, but if that's what it takes to not get assailed by vigilantes, so be it.
The other guy had a card. I had a card. I told him the value difference.
The other guy had an Elf deck and wanted to make it better.
The other guy was alright with the trade because he got something he wanted.
The trade happened.
I got a card. He got a card.
I got more monetary value. He got a smile, a better deck, and some happiness.
Now, are we going to continue to play moral crusaders, or are we good with accepting that different people have different metrics for playing and trading? Do you also tell people it's wrong to play fun decks at FNM because they're losing out on the potential value of the prize pool? Do you tell people they aren't allowed to donate cards to friends or even random players because they aren't getting any money out of it?
I don't like ranting, but I also don't like being crucified. This whole "X is wrong" and "did you do X" and "well people need to get their money's worth" spiel is highly offensive. I make it a point to help people understand, play, and enjoy this game. I can take criticism here or there, but I will not be talked to as though I'm depriving people of the things I've worked for three and a half years to give them.
February 7, 2014 2:33 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #49
Well, since he told him the price difference, and the trade was still insisted on by the guy, there really is not much you can say about it. If the price difference was not announced, then it would be ripping someone off.
The guy probably really appreciated the help, and had no need for the card.
February 7, 2014 2:44 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #50
I've had people throw me freebies in trade because I had helped them out on things. I still have a Jace, Architect of Thought , Master of Waves and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx that someone threw in when I was initially only trading for the Jace. They were given to me as sort of a tip for fixing this guy's son's deck after I crushed the poor little guy at a side event of a SCG.
Devonin says... #2
Just don't tell anybody that's what your plan is, and good luck!
February 5, 2014 6:22 p.m.