unbanning specs?
Economics forum
Posted on Jan. 13, 2015, 11:08 p.m. by xzavierx
Anyone preordering/trading/picking up any banned modern cards in anticipation for next announcment?
Heavy speculation has been on banning...but anyone else think Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari Grave-Troll, Sword of the Meek etc... come off the list?
I recently picked up 2 play sets of pack foil Bloodbraid Elf. 1 in trade, 1 bought on spec ($3/each).
Unforgivn_II says... #3
I actually wouldn't be suprised if BBE comes off. Mainly because they discovered the problem with Jund was DRS, not BBE. But I haven't researched Jund pre-Return to Ravnica, so I could be wrong.
January 13, 2015 11:14 p.m.
Blizzicane says... #4
Golgari Grave-Troll can easily come off without Dread Return of course and wouldn't break anything as far as I know but then again Treasure Cruise is a thing... Sword of the Meek can also make it off and maybe Visions if for whatever reason (not saying it will be) Treasure Cruise gets banned as there is a limit to how much draw power blue can use. :3
January 13, 2015 11:28 p.m.
slovakattack says... #5
I hope DRS gets unbanned. I don't think it will, but I hope it does.
January 14, 2015 12:05 a.m.
Ohthenoises: Sword of the Meek may come off the list. Without infinite mana a Thopter Foundry doesn't do a ton.
That's a bit of an understatement. Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry will absolutely take over basically any fair match-ups. You don't need infinite mana to grind them out when they can't win through combat or damage any more.
January 14, 2015 12:10 a.m.
The schedule for banning/unbanning.
Taken from Wizards.com - BANNED AND RESTRICTED LISTS.
"Announcements for changes to the Banned & Restricted lists are done all together on the Monday after a new sets Prerelease, to go into effect with that sets release. This way, the formats you play change as infrequently as possible."
So the next ban list update (if there are any changes to be made) will be announced on Monday, the 19th, and will come into effect on Friday, the 23rd.
January 14, 2015 12:16 a.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #9
POTENTIAL UNBAN: I think Sword of the Meek is more than safe to come off, thopter combo can benefit control decks by giving them a decisive way to close the game (and in a pinch save some damage to prolong the game), and it would also give them an incentive to play Thirst for Knowledge to discard redundant pieces, an arguably much fairer way to gain card advantage in modern at the moment. In addition, it's easily disrupted (one can kill thopter into response to equip), VERY mana intensive AND both pieces are sorcery speed, and considering all the artifact hate people run anyway people won't have to adjust their sideboards to answer it. That being said, I don't think it's necessarily on wizards agenda to let more combo into modern (since all non creature combos are so hurtful blah blah), but if you can pick up cheap foil Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek I would say it can't hurt.
STAY BANNED: Bloodbraid Elf is too stale to come off in my opinion: while the format would certainly be balanced with it around, all decks playing red and green would devolve into Bloodbraid Elf decks. I don't think it will come off for diversity reasons.
STAY BANNED: Golgari Grave-Troll will never come off the list. You'd think with Dread Return banned (as it should) there should be no reason for it to be there right? Wizards has actively stated they hate dredge: it was meant to be a card recursion mechanic, not a super efficient uncounterable self mill engine. What the dredge deck needs in modern right now is just one more enabler to gain the consistancy it needs to be a modern menace. It doesn't need to be the troll specifically: if the deck could run 8 Golgari Thug it would. Since Golgari Grave-Troll mills the most out of these cards, it just makes sense to ban that, so while a recursive zombie deck can use dredge as a tool, the full dredge deck is still not tournament consistent.
I hope my rant was helpful to your purchasing decisions.
January 14, 2015 12:25 a.m.
slovakattack says... #10
January 14, 2015 12:25 a.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #11
Time Sieve isn't needed for the combo to be effective. I would love to see a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas make work of the pieces however, come to think of it.
January 14, 2015 12:33 a.m.
slovakattack says... #12
That's what I'm hoping for.
I already have a shell built for it that uses Tezz, and Time Sieve (with Thopter Foundry and the Sword, that's infinite turns on 5 mana a turn) as an alternate win con.
It'd be like a different flavored Scapeshift.
January 14, 2015 12:36 a.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #14
I don't mean to take away my non-existent internet credibility with this note, but if Treasure Cruise is banned, I would like to see Seething Song come off of the list, because it won't break the reason it was originally banned and because it can enable new decks.
Once again, I only think this should be unbanned if Treasure Cruise is banned.
WHY STORM WON'T BE BROKEN: Before Treasure Cruise, storm would usually lose to mulligans, and Seething Song allows them to mitigate that disadvantage by essentially counting as 1 and a half cards, and now that Goblin Electromancer has become maindeck practice (which was after Seething Song was banned mind you), I don't think mana generation is the issue with storm: it's the staying power and stupid resiliency Treasure Cruise provides.
COOL THINGS WE CAN DO: Through the Breach anyone, both in Summoning Trap and alternate reanimator game plans? Skred Red can consistently drop dragons and Inferno Titan into play between the ritual and Koth of the Hammer (some variants already play Simian Spirit Guide)? Seething Song allows decks to jump curves and drop power into play that otherwise few people play in modern today. It's not a huge change, but if it doesn't make one deck too good and can at least enable a few others I'm for trying it. I can respect if someone points out something that would be too good.
January 14, 2015 1:02 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #15
I think that there will probably be only a few bannings, one will possibly be Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time and the other a piece from Ascendancy combo in my opinion.
January 14, 2015 2:37 a.m.
Am I not correct in thinking they've already said there'll be no changes when the banlsit comes out?
January 14, 2015 4:57 a.m.
Nothing needs to be banned/unbanned anyway. The meta is pretty healthy right now, even with everybody digging and cruising. Have you noticed that Delver decks, which were arguably most advantaged by the print of Treasure Cruise, always seem to make it high at events but usually not win? There's no need to pick up anything yet, at least not until we see what FRF does for the format (although that probably won't be too much, if anything).
January 14, 2015 6:40 a.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #18
@ChiefBell Actually I think Aaron Forscythe said recently he wants to see more modern gps before any bannings take place. That being said, even if it's not banned this time and I'm in support of more big tournament data results, I still expect Treasure Cruise to be banned in modern by the end of the year.
January 14, 2015 1:43 p.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice: Right. I was unsure whether that statement meant 'we're not banning Treasure Cruise yet', or whether it meant 'we're not banning or unbanning anything yet'.
January 14, 2015 1:49 p.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #20
I was trying to make an argument for Seething Song to come off of the list IF Treasure Cruise is banned, because storm would be way too good with both in the format.
@xzavierx Despite whatever happens in modern, I would still not pawn off foil Treasure Cruises if you have any, because legacy players love their foils and would still be happy to buy them.
January 14, 2015 2:13 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #21
GGT is really cheap at the moment, so buying him and forcing Dredge probably isn't a bad move. I doubt that Wizards will ban anything, and if they do, it will be Cruise, which has no financial impact whatsoever due to it's performance in legacy. Panic selling is an awful idea at the moment, because unlike DRS, there is nothing under the spotlight that will be banned fo' sure.
January 14, 2015 4:06 p.m.
kingofcramers says... #22
what do you guys think the chances of Ancestral Vision being unbanned are? My reasoning is that since wizards printed Treasure Cruise, which is generally just a better version of it they might take it off the list. Do you think it's worth investing in them in case they get unbanned and go up?
January 15, 2015 3:42 p.m.
first off...thank you all for making this a worthwhile article with educated opinions!!!
I wouldn't invest in visions right now. It's seen some reprints in auxiliry product and it's foil is already high.
January 15, 2015 4:46 p.m.
kingofcramers says... #24
but i meant more what do you guys think the chances of it getting unbanned are?
January 15, 2015 9:30 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #25
Bloodbraid Elf has recently been bought out on TCGPlayer. The last card this happened to before an unbanning announcement was Bitterblossom due to inside information. Just something to think about.
January 15, 2015 10:17 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #26
I'm sure cards get bought out all the time as speculation, and BBE will eventually come off the ban list, but this is exciting news.
I also don't understand Sword of the Meek complaints. Nobody complains about Splinter Twin, another 2 card combo.
January 16, 2015 3:38 a.m.
I really dont see BBE being unbanned. It's a stupid card.
January 16, 2015 7:05 a.m.
JexInfinite the difference between Twin and Sword of the Meek is that Twin needs specific cards to work and is somewhat fragile despite the counters it has. The latter only needs another 1/1, which can be produced by a very large amount of cards (most notable Young Pyromancer and Thopter Foundry). It doesn't win on the spot but it makes the game a hell of a lot easier.
January 16, 2015 7:20 a.m.
Sword of the meek doesn't particularly 'go off' or combo it just synergises nicely. Young pyromancer with the sword does nothing unless you cast spells. Sword with thopter foundry requires mana input too. It doesn't seem to form some limitless combo on the spot. It doesn't make life any harder than some deck that produces limitless 1/1 tokens would - all that happens if you end up with a lot of 1/1 tokens and a 2/3 token. So what? That's barely more annoying or threatening than any UR delver deck or BW tokens deck is at the moment.
January 16, 2015 7:51 a.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #30
My argument exactly, as a pure combo deck it's just way worst than Splinter Twin, an arguably already fragile combo that simply has an amazing tempo shell to back it up. It would actually help control decks both stabilize AND close the game, I for one would love to see more control lists outside of Jeskai running this game-closer.
January 16, 2015 9:44 p.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #31
Ok, I was wrong. Golgari Grave-Troll is unbanned. I still stand by statement in that I think dredge will be too good with its final piece, however due to the recent reprint in Izzet VS Golgari I don't think you lost out that much financially. Foils are going for about 10 a pop right and they'll probably rise throughout the modern season, but in terms of the regular card I don't think there's much to be gained anyway.
January 19, 2015 12:38 p.m.
Yeh. I can see BG/x becoming the main and probably only midrange deck now. Shame on wizards.
January 19, 2015 12:38 p.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #33
Why did they ban Dig Through Time? It doesn't see nearly as much play as Treasure Cruise or Birthing Pod...
January 19, 2015 12:41 p.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #34
You're correct, but in the modern metagame Dig Through Time costing two mana for an already objectively more powerful effect would essentially just replace Treasure Cruise in these lists, the Jeskai Ascendency deck already made the switch to this card. While it's my opinion that Dig Through Time was one of the best control support cards released in recent memory, it would still be swapped and the two are still fairly interchangeable, unlike legacy where costing 1 more mana makes a lot more difference.
On this flip side of these bannings, U/R delver decks get to try Temporal Trespass as their finisher of choice since there's no delve cards to compete with it, so while the deck is substantially weaker and merely a fringe deck before, I don't think the deck is going to vanish.
January 19, 2015 12:59 p.m.
KrosanTusker says... #35
Many of the lists were already running Dig as the 5th Cruise anyway. It's just an excellent replacement -- they both had to go, or there'd be no point banning Cruise.
Temporal Trespass costing min. 3 mana makes it too expensive to be a playable Delver card, IMO. I believe this will shortly become evident as people start testing their retuned delver builds.
January 19, 2015 2:35 p.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #36
It's certainly not a replacement for Treasure Cruise because you can't chain them, however without other delve cards in the deck I would certainly mise it to blow out Siege Rhino decks. Two is too many, but what Treasure Cruise prevented the deck from doing was running out of gas, and sometimes you just need to build more tokens or hit them with delver one more time. I am by no means suggesting that Temporal Trespass is a new staple.
Ohthenoises says... #2
Bloodbraid Elf was pretty recently added to the banlist. I doubt that they would unban is so soon.
Sword of the Meek may come off the list. Without infinite mana a Thopter Foundry doesn't do a ton.
January 13, 2015 11:11 p.m.