What is up with theros pricing?
Economics forum
Posted on Sept. 19, 2013, 10:44 p.m. by sadiuh
I searched up a few cards on amazon that i thought would be huge money cards. Fleecemane Lion is 7$. Anger of the Gods is a few bucks. Those are what i thought would be nearly the biggest money cards in the set! Opinions on that pricing?
The pricing for cards are set in anticipation of their popularity/playability. They'll fluctuate for a while but most will probably go down in price after release.
September 19, 2013 10:54 p.m.
Unless, of course, they spawn new archetypes or interact far better with a current archetype than expected.
September 19, 2013 10:55 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #5
Biggest money cards in the forseeable future are probably Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Xenagos, The Reveler . There will probably be at least one card that will shoot up suddenly one day like Boros Reckoner .
September 19, 2013 10:56 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #6
Oh, and Thoughtseize . That one is almost guaranteed to never fall, only rise.
September 19, 2013 10:57 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #7
I can see Fleecemane Lion staying around the same price as an Advent of the Wurm for a while, but Anger of the Gods will probably be a $1-2 rare.
September 19, 2013 10:57 p.m.
My money's on Purphoros, God of the Forge and Xenagos, The Reveler . (Okay, I'm done spamming now x))
September 19, 2013 10:58 p.m.
That pricing's actually about right for the set in general. The only prices that are really off are the ones Xenagos and Purphoros.
September 19, 2013 11:04 p.m.
Slagstorm was topping out at almost $5 at its peak, so I expect Anger of the Gods to sit around $3 or $4 for quite awhile.
September 19, 2013 11:27 p.m.
It's pretty safe to say the price of most things will drop slightly after the set is released and new cards flood the streets, even new Thoughtseize may stay around 25 for a while. i think in the long run though, the planeswalkers (and im a little doubtful of ashiok), thoughtseize, maybe a couple of the gods, and a few others will hold value. Who am I to say though, im no pro.
September 20, 2013 12:13 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Fleecemane Lion is a Watchwolf with an option to put Indestructibility and worse Alpha Authority on it for 3GW and no cards. he is nice but I'm not even sure he is $7 nice.
September 20, 2013 1:44 a.m.
Fleecemane Lion is like Tarmogoyf in standard. In your opening hand you're happy to see him. He's a 3/3 for 2. What's not to like? On turn 1 or 2 you can just play him, maybe evolve an Experiment One , but he's even solid around turn 3. Turn 4 and 5 you can make him into a flightless Angelic Overseer . I don't think some of you realise how annoying a 4/4 hexproof indestructible is to kill. And you can just wait till they play a removal and monstrosity him in response also. I think this guy will see lots of play. I may be wrong, but I'd be happy to see him any turn if the game (like Tarmogoyf .) A Watchwolf turn 2 or an Angelic Overseer turn 5? Yes please. So much utility.
September 20, 2013 2:04 a.m.
KingSorin is right. Fleecemane Lion can, and probably will, go into any Bant Hexproof deck that wants it. I've got a deck, Quick! To the Bantmobile!, where Fleecemane Lion is my finisher. You can't tell me you'd be afraid of a monstrous Fleecemane Lion with Aqueous Form , Unflinching Courage , and 2 Ethereal Armor attached to him. Is that a lot of mana/cards? Yes. Is it doable after he becomes monstrous? Absolutely!
September 20, 2013 2:12 a.m.
Oh yeah, and people who say sacrificing effects will kill him, that's true, you've got Far / Away , Devour Flesh , Celestial Flare and the new heroic deathtouch 3/2 for 1BB. That's 4 answers. Not a lot. Also the new elspeth I think can kill it. They're restricted to 2 colours, one has a 6-drop sorcery-speed answer and a card that requires double-white. The other has cards that all fall when you have another creature to sacrifice. This lion is going to be hard to answer in Selesnya aggro, naya blitz, bant flash or bant hexproof. He'll be contending with voice in places for decks, and I reckon both will make it into a lot of builds.
September 20, 2013 2:19 a.m.
I think you're forgetting Lightning Strike and the fact that virtually all aggro decks are red.
September 20, 2013 2:21 a.m.
I mean once it's hexproof. And look which deck one the block constructed pro tour dragon's maze.
September 20, 2013 2:23 a.m.
It was Selesnya aggro. (This comment had to be on a different post for added effect.)
September 20, 2013 2:23 a.m.
You're assuming that decks will actually let it be hexproof. Assuming you play it on turn 2, your opponent has 3 turns to get rid of it which is often more than enough.
September 20, 2013 2:24 a.m.
On turn 2 it's a Watchwolf . On turn 5 it's a bomb... in constructed... It is allowed to die early-game. It's just an aggressive creature, like Call of the Conclave . On turn 5, it has a great use as a finisher though, and serves a different purpose. It has 2 uses: 1.) A Watchwolf . This is a solid 2-drop. 3/3 no downsides. The only flaw with it is that it isn't amazing. It doesn't have any abilities like Voice of Resurgence . It's just a solid 3/3, but is underwhelming in the lategame. Except this is where its second use kicks in. 2.) It's a 4/4 hexproof indestructible. No downsides. 7 mana paid in 2 sums. 2 mana for a 3/3, then 5 more for a 4/4 hexproof indestructible. Early game it's strong. Late-game it's also strong. Gore-House Chainwalker is a solid card to pick up turn 2, but on turn 5 he's quite weak. (Yes I'm aware of his advantage being able to be played with Burning-Tree Emissary ), but he's next to useless in the lategame. Just a 3/2 can't block or a 2/1. This guy, on the other hand, is a massive threat to your opponent, being a huge 4/4 hexproof and indestructible. No spot removal or boardwipe can kill him, and he's a 4/4. He doesn't die in combat, and he's quite a large body. He can be an annoying finisher, but in turn 2 he's just an aggressive guy also.
September 20, 2013 2:34 a.m.
Ashnard - you are right that no one will want to let Fleecemane Lion be monstrous, I know I wouldn't. But there will be a point, either in the early game or late game, that someone can drop Fleecemane Lion and make him monstrous IMMEDIATELY. Which will put a sad face on every opponent of that deck ever. In constructed, the deck that builds around it will have ways of protecting it. Also I bet it will be a 4-of in any deck that wants it. Hence the $8 price tag. I just want to pull my playset in boosters and not have to resort to buying/trading to get it.
And to KingSorin's point, one of the decks in the finals of the 2013 world championships was Selesnya Hexproof. The format WAS modern, but you can't tell me that Reid Duke wouldn't put Fleecemane Lion in the deck as a closer.
September 20, 2013 2:39 a.m.
ShadowLand says... #22
I see Whip of Erebos jumping a few bucks because its the re-animation go-to with Rescue from the Underworld
September 20, 2013 2:41 a.m.
I was talking about wescoe's Selesnya aggro in pro tour dragon's maze, but I think lion's a bit slow for hexproof in modern. That deck should win by turn 5-ish.
September 20, 2013 2:42 a.m.
KingSorin - I knew what you were talking about, which is why I mentioned it was a modern deck. But it still looks like Bant Hexproof will be a player in the new Standard meta.
September 20, 2013 3:23 a.m.
I reckon blue will be cut from hexproof entirely. The only good blue hexproofer is Prognostic Sphinx that I can see. Not many good auras either. Either Selesnya or naya will be hexproof.
September 20, 2013 3:38 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #26
Fleecemane Lion is competing for a spot with Scavenging Ooze and Voice of Resurgence
It might be good, but it won't be a money rare.
September 20, 2013 4:53 a.m.
detentionsphere says... #27
How far do people think Thoughtseize will drop? I need to pick up a playset and I'm thinking it might drop to about $15 a few weeks after release. Should I buy now, or wait?
September 20, 2013 4:53 a.m.
ShadowLand with the whip in an intro deck, the price on it will be 1-2.00$
September 20, 2013 6:55 a.m.
ShadowLand says... #29
Yeah gufymike I forgot that it was in an intro deck, boo
September 20, 2013 6:59 a.m.
detentionsphere - it seems like Thoughtseize might actually go up in price. Before the reveal of Thoughtseize , it was going for $20. Now it's up to $30. It could drop, but good luck finding it cheaper than $20.
September 20, 2013 7:22 a.m.
I think some of the gods will hold a high value along with Thoughtseize but with the other cards it really just depends on their demand... I think we are about to see a huge shift in gameplay and some unexpected cards will get a lot of love, idk which ones but i just have a feeling
September 20, 2013 7:34 a.m.
ShadowLand says... #32
@ Panda213 I'm right there with you on that one. I think aggro is going to be popular right off the bat, but will only be big until people get their RTR and Theros synergy going, and then most competitive standard is going to be mid-range drawn out games. There is so much LG out there its going to be hard to win fast.
September 20, 2013 8:43 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #33
Sure I can tell you that Reid wouldn't put Fleecemane Lion in his deck. He used one drop, innately hexproof creatures and possibly one of the best enchantment targets in a modern auras deck, Kor Spiritdancer . He then had ways to ensure it survived by using totem armor enchantments like Hyena Umbra . The goal is not to burn a lot of mana on your creatures, which making fleecemane monstrous does.
September 20, 2013 9:21 a.m.
fluffybunnypants you're talking 2-3 years ago with a different std environment. A lot of pros are on the lions jock and for good reason. It's a great card and playable especially in a naya build with domri and Xenagos. Xenagos allowing for ramp into monstrosity.
September 20, 2013 9:32 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #35
gufymike: I am actually talking modern earlier this year in deck that went on to place second at worlds.
September 20, 2013 9:49 a.m.
People who think Fleecemane Lion is bad because of sacrifice effects must also think Consecrated Sphinx was bad because you can kill it with Doom Blade .
Also, a lot of people don't seem to realize that you can make a creature Monstrous at Instant-speed. EoT with 5 mana? TROLOLOLO
September 20, 2013 11:52 a.m.
fluffybunnypants again another environment, when you can talk about what people are doing in this std environment with theros, please do so, but to say 'x is doing y in a place not remotely similar to the situation, so z is bad' is just not valid enough of a point to consider.
September 20, 2013 11:58 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #38
And you can kill spell at instant speed with monstrous on the stack. He doesn't have to be sacced to be dealt with. But saying that a creature dies to removal is a bit "thank you MOTO". I'm not saying he is bad I am just saying that he isn't as super great as some people seem to think. Both players are going to wait for the other to make the first move and then respond to try to foil it. You have to take into consideration which player is being hurt more by not moving. The guy who is keeping 5 up for (not so surprising) surprise monstrous on his 3/3 making it indestructible and hexproof or the guy leaving 2 up to kill it and willing to have a block happen and kill it off either with combat damage or a kill spell over the ability.
September 20, 2013 12:10 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #39
@gufymike: it was a specific response to JWiley129's post on this thread. I should've made that clearer.
My predominant point about what the deck in question's goal was remains. Low cost, high pump. It was not a frequent occurrence for Reid Duke to even have five lands in play during the modern portion of worlds. Therefore I believe my point stands. Please leave it be now.
September 20, 2013 12:22 p.m.
So if your opponent dumps a removal spell at the end of HIS turn on a 3/3 when you had nothing better to do, are you really worse for wear?
September 20, 2013 12:26 p.m.
So if your opponent dumps a removal spell at the end of HIS turn on a 3/3 when you had nothing better to do, are you really worse for wear?
Yes. You lost a 3/3 for 2 with an upside. You indeed are worse for wear. Especially if summoning it is all they did that turn as killing it means they just wasted their turn.
September 20, 2013 12:39 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #42
You wasted your 5th turn to do nothing keeping 5 mana open to "surprise"? I will gladly have you waste 5 mana and kill your 3/3 creature for 2 mana and a card. Also the point of a awesome creature isn't that you come out "none the worse for wear" it should advance your game. If I wanted to spend 5 and have it not matter I would play Azor's Elocutors and save myself $7.75. Again Fleecemane Lion is a good creature. He isn't $8 worth of great and he is by no means "omg only $8 wtf are people thinking" great.
September 20, 2013 12:48 p.m.
....but the upside was largely to force him to play his removal when you wanted him to... so you got the benefit.
Now it's your turn, he's tapped out, and you can do what you want.
(Wow.... did I just agree with zandl?... lol)
September 20, 2013 12:54 p.m.
Wait, we're talking about the Lion's controller keeping 5 mana open to use Monstrosity? Because if that's the case the lion's controller is very much worse for the wear as he just lost quite a bit of tempo.
September 20, 2013 12:56 p.m.
Rayenous are we talking tapped out on turn 3 or tapped out on turn 5 or later? I would think, for the most part if tapped out on turn 5 after casting a removal spell, is a bad removal spell. but I only think this because the rest of the turn wasn't defined. Either way, it's a threat removed and a removal spell used for what it was intended to do, kill some threat. Yes it's optimal to do this on your opponents turn,. But these are goldfish plays, giving everyone the optimal plays, not anywhere in reality. Personally I think the lion is a great card, but will it be a long term good investment, I think so, g/w has the tools to be tier 1 for a while.
September 20, 2013 1:06 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #46
The original point was that Fleecemane Lion isn't under priced at $7. I have been saying all along that he is good but that if anything I see him pulling a Loxodon Smiter and going down to $3-$4 by December.
He is a 3/3 for 2 but I think fixating on his monstrous ability would be wrong. If you are leaving 5 mana up to make him monstrous then you are not spending it on other spells that could be more relevant. Again any day of the week I will trade 2 mana and a Doom Blade or Pit Fight to make someone waste 5 mana and kill a 3/3.
September 20, 2013 1:17 p.m.
You do know you can set off the Lion turn 3, right?
T1: Temple Garden into Elvish Mystic (2 mana)
T2: Forest or Plains in Fleecemane Lion and Elvish Mystic (4 mana)
T3: Any land then set off Monsterous.
Sure it requires a few select opening cards or draws, but it can happen.
September 20, 2013 4:33 p.m.
detentionsphere says... #48
@JWiley129: I get what you're saying, but Thoughtseize was actually $60 before it was announced in THS, then fell to $25. If you look at what happened to the shocklands, they were $20-$30 before RTR, then when they were spoiled they fell to $15, and after a couple of months of RTR being drafted they fell to $8-$10. I'm wondering if the same thing will happen with Thoughtseize .
September 20, 2013 4:42 p.m.
ShadowLand says... #49
Shockland are going to go back up after rotation detentionsphere, I would be willing to bet money on that. These Scry Lands are going to force the shocks way up. I would look to see them easily $15-$20 mark again very soon after rotation.
September 20, 2013 4:53 p.m.
Whoa, kids. I never said Fleecemane Lion was bad; in fact, I was arguing for the opposite. And I never said that you should keep you mana open for it; in fact, I explicitly stated "If you have nothing else to do."
Fleecemane Lion is a powerful creature. Is it the next G/W bomb? No. Is it a Watchwolf with a beneficial ability that you can activate when you've got nothing better to do? Sure.
Let's quit pretending we all said different things than what we actually did, k?
xlaleclx says... #2
Neither of those cards will be money cards, that's fore sure. If anything they'll probably drop in a little while.
September 19, 2013 10:52 p.m.