Why is Sacred Foundry so expensive?
Economics forum
Posted on April 15, 2014, 10:32 p.m. by Arorsthrar
It may be a stupid question, but I've been wondering why Sacred Foundry is the most expensive shock lands (about $2-$3 more than the others). It doesn't see any play in any of the Top 8 standard decks (R/W and Naya Hexproof/Aggro use it, but they aren't huge in the format). In my quick glance through some of the Modern decks that have been placing, Sacred Foundry is rather uncommon. So why the high price?
possibly bc its the only money card in r/w burn which can lead to more demand from the entry level players, meanwhile people playing more expensive decks already have their lands/less of them
and spec on r/w god?
April 15, 2014 10:46 p.m.
ryuzaki32667 says... #4
It and Watery Grave are the only ones that are 15 and the rest are 12 (scg), but they have been the same prices since before burn was as common at opens as it is now,
April 15, 2014 10:50 p.m.
The red white god is okay but he takes its most valuable card Boros Reckoner and nerfs its ability so hes pretty much pointless, Most people are afraid to attack into a boros reckoner and now that he would be nerfed with the God nobody cares about him
April 15, 2014 10:51 p.m.
Also, Modern is a thing. So yeah.
American Control is one of the big three or four decks in Modern and it, along with a slew of other Modern decks, use it too.
But yeah. Boros Burn and Naya Hexproof use 4 each.
April 15, 2014 10:53 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #7
mmdw34: that is assuming you are attacking with the reckoner. if your opponent has creatures, you are probably better off leaving him back anyway. if they do have creatures, the nerf isn't really a nerf, is it?
April 15, 2014 10:55 p.m.
Also, SCG is so huge that they tend to set their own prices for cards more than adamantly follow market trends. For the most accurate prices, check tcgplayer.com. TCGplayer averages out hundreds of stores' prices for cards and, thus, theoretically gives you the most accurate value.
April 15, 2014 10:57 p.m.
mmdw34 says...
This one card gives this other card additional good abilities, which makes that card worse.
I don't... but... .... huh?
April 15, 2014 10:59 p.m.
Im entitled to my own opinions and if you don't like it then there's no need for the mocking, I'm just saying it nerfs one of boros's most powerful creatures with the best ability
April 15, 2014 11:06 p.m.
How is it a nerf? A nerf is when something gets weaker.
The whole reason Boros Reckoner has those abilities is so your opponent will want to block it less. Iroas does the same thing, making him all but unblockable in your opponent's eyes.
Or keep him as a blocker?
No one's likely going to be blocking your Reckoner, anyways. How many people do? Either they block with a 3/3 or smaller and it dies to first-strike, or block with a 4/4 or larger and take that much to the face.
April 15, 2014 11:11 p.m.
I posted this opinion elsewhere and I figure I might as well copy it here:
To everyone mentioning the anti-synergy with Boros Reckoner's ability I'd like to point out that if Boros Reckoner read as:
R/W, R/W, R/W
Boros Reckoner can only be blocked by two or more creatures.
As long as Boros Reckoner is not attacking it has 'Whenever Boros Reckoner is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to target creature or player.'
Prevent all damage to Boros Reckoner if it is attacking.
3/3
I'd still play it, for sure.
I mean, that is obviously just the effects of tacking on Iroas, God of Victory 's abilities but, I mean, that is still a fantastic card. You still get to do damage shenanigans when he is out of combat and you get an unkillable, evasive, beater the rest of the time. I mean, sure it could be a downside depending on the boardstate, but, that seems like it is pretty unlikely that that will the case, IMO.
April 15, 2014 11:20 p.m.
The only thing you're taking away from Boros Reckoner by adding Iroas is your opponent's choice to block or not. If you're taking away any of your opponent's choices at any point in a game, that's an advantage for you, simplifying the game in your favor. In a perfect world, a skillful opponent would see your attack coming and decide the pros/cons of blocking. If he/she blocks a tricky creature like Reckoner, then he/she likely is in a good enough board position to handle the consequences or has a trick up his/her sleeve. tl;dr - If your opponent blocks, it's to benefit him for be better off than not blocking.
By making Reckoner harder to block, your opponent's choice is cut way back.
At no point would making Reckoner easier to block be in your favor.
April 15, 2014 11:26 p.m.
*If your opponent blocks, it's to the benefit of him as he'd be better off than not blocking entirely.
April 15, 2014 11:27 p.m.
But that isn't entirely the case. You can block Boros Reckoner with multiple creatures (should those be available) and not have him deal any redirected damage. Sure he can sit on the defense, and I think he is better with Iroas, God of Victory 's abilities, personally. But I've won games because one or two Boros Reckoner s made lethal and they couldn't block them because that also would have been lethal. In the new situation, if they had a pair of creatures for each Reckoner, there is the conceivable situation where the damage prevention will keep you from beating someone. Yes, it is also true that that is not very likely in the first place, but the situation does exist is my only point here.
TL;DR
From a vanilla game standpoint I'm in full agreement that Boros Reckoner is made much better by the abilities granted by Iroas, God of Victory and they synergize well together, but, there is a fringe situation where the new abilities are less helpful than the old ones.
April 15, 2014 11:52 p.m.
"You can block Boros Reckoner with multiple creatures (should those be available) and not have him deal any redirected damage."
wut
April 15, 2014 11:55 p.m.
too long; don't read
It's used typically to sum up what you just said, as if telling people "I that's too long; don't read it. Read this:"
April 15, 2014 11:59 p.m.
ryuzaki32667 says... #19
Ah thank you, I read the whole thing and tried to guess what it meant, cause I saw it in another thread also
April 16, 2014 12:18 a.m.
@'wut'
Iroas, God of Victory says 'prevent all damage to attacking creatures you control.' You will not have any damage to redirect. You will not redirect any damage.
My apologies if that seemed out of place at the beginning. I thought I had been clear with what I'd been referring to.
April 16, 2014 12:38 a.m.
Fair.
At the same time, if you have a Reckoner and Iroas out together, you likely already have (or are close) to having Iroas being a dude. And a 7/4 with those abilities kinda makes up for it.
April 16, 2014 12:42 a.m.
Yeah, I 110% agree with you there. Add in a Precinct Captain and you're set.
April 16, 2014 12:45 a.m.
@zandl your right, TCG does have an average price rating based on all of their stores listed with that card available. The one thing thing that is misleading about that though is the fact that not all of the stores with cards listed are real stores. Individual people are allowed to sell cards on TCG. That's why the prices on TCG are almost always lower than on SCG. It's mostly a secondary market, similar to buying things off of ebay. Buying cards from a secondary market, from an unknown seller, will always be cheaper than buying them directly from an actual retail store.
April 16, 2014 3:45 a.m.
I just look at the prices from brick-and-mortar stores. Still cheaper than SCG.
April 16, 2014 10:38 a.m.
depends on the store, my LGS uses SCG's prices and then just undercuts it slightly so that way they get close to full value for the card but people leave feeling like they got a bargain because they've seen it listed for a higher price but that's irrelevant because that's not the point I was making.
I just looked at TCG and searched for Sacred Foundry from gatecrash, 10 results per page and I looked at the first 10 pages, so basically the first 100 sellers listed. Less than half of those 100 listed were actual brick and mortar stores. That means over half of those 100 were individual sellers like you or me. Like I said before, individuals selling items on the secondary market can't charge full mint condition retail price so naturally those individual sellers have their prices listed lower.
So I guess the point that I was getting at originally is that because of all of the individual sellers the average price listed on TCG doesn't actually show the true value of any individual card because when the average price is calculated it's using all of those prices from those individual sellers (who, as I pointed out, are listed in greater numbers and can't sell cards for full retail) and the prices from the brick and mortar stores. The average price listed on TCG is more or less the second hand value of a card. In other words, the cash value you'd expect to get if you were selling a copy of Sacred Foundry . If you were to take out all of the individual sellers and took the average of only the brick and mortar stores I think you'd be surprised by how much the average price goes up.
April 16, 2014 11:20 a.m.
But why remove them from the equation? Are they not selling cards just like a brick and mortar store? If someone is willing to buy a card at a certain value, does that not dictate its value? That is, after all, what "value" is.
April 16, 2014 1:03 p.m.
I was just saying to remove them from the equation to show how much those individual sellers effect the average price listed on TCG. Whether you buy from them or not, that is totally up to you, but it still doesn't change the fact that the average price listed on TCG isn't a direct representation of a cards worth, its just represents of what the secondary market is asking. Would you go to ebay and take an average of all the prices listed for a card and then say that's exactly what it's worth? Because that's the exact same thing as saying the average price on TCG reflects exactly what a card is worth.
I don't know why people have trouble understanding this concept, but taking the average of a bunch of prices (that are already marked down for the secondary market) doesn't not show you what a cards worth. It shows you how much the secondary market is asking. There is a huge difference between those two things. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy from TCG or anything like that. Everyone likes getting a deal, and I even buy cards from TCG. I'm just trying to help you understand that the average price on TCG isn't a definitive answer for how much a cards worth, like lots of people seem to think. Like I said, it's simply an average of all the prices they have listed, most of which come from individual sellers who can only afford to ask for about 80% of a cards actual value if they want to create sales as the compete with with brick and mortar stores that have a reputation and an established customer base.
April 16, 2014 4:16 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #28
abenz419: Isn't Star City Games a part of the secondary market? (at least as far as their singles sales go). I have to agree with zandl that a card's value is what someone is willing to pay. I understand that some people are willing to pay more for a card if it comes from a trusted source. However, in my opinion, that extra price you pay isn't for the card, is it? It is for the confidence in the quality and safety of the purchase. that being said, TCG is still a good source to represent the value of a card
April 16, 2014 4:28 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #30
abenz419 you are totally off. Pretty much the opposite of what you said is correct. The individual sellers on TCG and Ebay are selling the cards for their actual value. Brick and mortar stores charge a higher price because they have overhead to account for. In reality you are paying for the value of the card + their overhead.
The more you know...
April 16, 2014 4:31 p.m.
A stores profit comes from the fact that they buy things from distributors at wholesale prices. Then in their store they sell the for MSRP or higher.
I'll use an example to better explain myself. If I buy a brand new $500 TV from the store then decide to sell it a month later. I won't be able to ask for the full $500 price for it when I resell the TV. I'll have to ask a lower price than what the TV is worth in order to sell it on a secondary market. That same concept is what's happening with those individual sellers on TCG.
Something you may not know is that while those individual sellers might not be actual brick and mortar stores many of them run an Online Retail. So, while they may not have a store to maintain, they still have an inventory to regulate and a website that requires updating and maintenance, among other things. They have an overhead of their own, while it may not be as high as someone who owns an actual brick and mortar store, it's still there.
April 16, 2014 5:19 p.m.
k
Well, use TCGplayer's mid-price for the correct value of cards.
April 16, 2014 6:53 p.m.
What i think is that Sacred Foundry wasn't printed in any event decks, so it is less accessible.
CommanderOfBolas says... #2
R/W burn is pretty popular and it has been in a few top 8's. Also, you have to consider the most commonly played decks, not just top 8's. r/w decks are relatively cheap to play, so it may be expensive because more people want to play cheaper decks and Sacred Foundry is more desired at the moment. Kind of ironic, isn't it?
April 15, 2014 10:45 p.m.