Your Ideal Deck Box
Gear forum
Posted on Oct. 16, 2015, 12:33 a.m. by ducttapedeckbox
As I enter my Fall Break, I have some time to explore a project that I've been thinking about for a few weeks: designing my own deck box using computed-aided design software (CAD). This post is geared towards brainstorming ideas for the musts and luxuries of a custom deck box, as well as how to achieve that functionality. So, what do you look for when buying (or building) a deck box? There are the obvious things like being able to hold a (double) sleeved deck, staying closed when dropped/shuffled around, and being strong enough with withstand the fall, but what luxuries would you like to see? I'll list some of my own thoughts:
Musts:
- Be able to hold a double-sleeved 60-card deck with sideboard
- Be able to close tightly and without much hassle
- Be able to withstand a typical drop from a table out - negligible applied force, from no more than 3 meters (we'll include a "safety factor")
Luxuries:
- Have storage space for dice
- Have a built-in life counter, or
- Have a groove to keep a spindown counter in place (courtesy of Epoch)
- Exterior designs, whether painted or 3D
- See-through front or slot in the front to place a display card
- Sideboard / maindeck separations
Logistics:
- What are the dimensions of a typical 60-card deck? What are the dimensions of a typical (double) sleeved card?
- What are the dimensions of a spindown counter?
- How will the box remain closed? Pressure fitting? Separate latches?
- How thick should the box be to withstand typical forces?
- Should the deck be oriented horizontally or vertically in the box?
- How will the cards be easily removed?
Ideally I would like to minimize the number of moving parts and complicated geometries to make the design process easier. Please share your thoughts! I'm considering this as a side-project and would like to make sure I don't overlook anything.
I am a big fan of the Ultrapro satin towers and Ultimate Guard Monoliths. They are soft, thick and close really well and have a storage space for dice. They hold a double sleeved EDH deck so they will certainly hold 75 cards double sleeved + tokens and 2 dividers which I find a must for a box for one (1) deck.I keep 3 spindowns in each box, 4 D10's and some shiny flat stones for counters so it has to fit that for me basically for me to want a box. According to trollandtoad these boxes are 5.25" H x 3.12" W x 3.32" D.
I hope this was any help, I just woke up so it might look like a lot of rambling.
October 16, 2015 3:09 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Some considerations based on problems I've had with deck boxes (some are obviously for mass production, not personal use. So disregard those if this is for a 1-of, not as an exercise in design):
If using a flap closure ensure there is ample room front and back to accommodate large hands grasping the deck to remove it. Snap-on closure dodge this by having the deck extend above the open box.
If lined with a high friction surface (fabric etc.) the box should allow extra clearance on the sides so that the deck can be removed with out dragging along the lining.
Total dimensions should be small enough to be grasped in one hand by a petite consumer when opening.
Dividers between internal compartments should be sturdy.
October 16, 2015 7:28 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #5
enpc, I'm thinking of 3D printing it. I do have access to CNC Milling Centers and a fully stocked machine shop, so that is also an option, but my thought was to 3D print it. I will be using PTC Creo.
Thanks for your input, continuum. That sounds about right. I just want to make sure it's small enough to be usable, but big enough to hold everything...
I'm not sure how far I will take this, Gidgetimer. For now it's just a project for me to work on to see what I come up with.
As of now, I'm thinking of placing the deck on its side within the box to keep it sturdy when sitting on a table. This way, I can add the aforementioned cutouts in the top to provide a resting place for spindowns. How will the dice storage work? A drawer? A compartment below the deck? How will it stay closed?
Epochalyptik, you seemed to express some interest in this idea back when I mentioned it in the Custom Gear Information thread. If that's not the case, ignore this tag, but I'd appreciate your thoughts if you have time.
October 16, 2015 11:34 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
I don't advise CNC milling unless you want something super overbuilt just for the lulz. A standard 3d printer with plastic feed should be sufficient.
If you want the deck to be resting on its side (side-laying boxes are sturdier on the table, as we discussed in the last thread), then you want to consider that when thinking about dice storage. If you were to design a drawer in the bottom or side of the box, it would need to be oriented appropriately relative to the way you open and use the rest of the box.
You'll also need to consider dice sizes and how many you want/need to accommodate.
October 16, 2015 12:05 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #7
I'm almost certainly just going to 3D print whatever I design. Maybe if I wanted to make something out of aluminum or something I'd look at different machining methods.
For dice sizes, I think the biggest we're looking at is a 20-sided spindown, which is about 25mm at its largest cross-section. I typically carry four of these and six or so standard D6's, but I also play control and rarely need them.
The two methods of opening the box seem to be a sliding lid, or a pressure fit top. Should the dice compartment be accessible with the lid closed/in place?
October 16, 2015 12:46 p.m.
Coinman1863 says... #8
Yeah, I would make it such that the can be accessed when the box was closed. This would allow for the dice to be used even if you are not using that deck at that time.
Basically it's a convenience factor that I would suggest you integrate.
Also can you send me the CAD drawings when you are done? I'd love to print one. Also I have access to printers on a daily basis so if you want to test anything in real life, I would be glad to help.
October 16, 2015 5:10 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #9
Do you have any suggestions for that? I was thinking of a side compartment that folds out, but it also sounds like it would be very unstable and break easily.
I like the idea of a drawer as well, but how do you keep it shut when it's not in use?
This will be an ongoing project so I'm not sure if or when it'll be done, but I'll be sure to post images at the least.
October 16, 2015 5:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
I tend not to like sliding lids. They can be lost (unless you have a retaining mechanism), and they can break (they tend to just be thin sliding doors unsupported when open.
If you plan to include the spindown divot, it would be nice to have the box open along some other axis so as not to disturb your spindown. (Though I suppose that you won't need to open the box during the game unless you want to keep your tokens hidden [which would be wise].)
Another, and potentially cooler, way to handle life counting is to have some cog-like wheels that click into place so you can track any number from 000-999. This would help you avoid issues with box stability while on the table (if the box falls over or needs to be moved, you don't risk disturbing the life totals). You also wouldn't need to limit your design options as much.
With that kind of design, you could have a central compartment for the deck itself and a "wing" on each side of that. Each wing would have a storage section and house one of the life counter assemblies. This would give you your deck, a compartment for your sideboard/tokens, a compartment for some dice (mostly d6 because the counter wheels would replace spindowns), and life counters for two players. This design can also be adapted to horizontal or vertical orientations (but it would use far less space in a vertical orientation unless you stacked the life counters on one end and used one partitioned compartment for both dice and the sideboard).
The main downside, I think, is that you would need to develop some kind of detent system for the cogs that would allow you to easily ratchet each one independently and without damage while still preventing them from moving unintentionally.
October 16, 2015 5:52 p.m.
I have to say, I'm not a fan of the whole ratcheting life counter on the deckbox idea. My issue is that for Modern / standard, if you're wanting to go to things like FNM then you're much better off using a pen and paper but for things like commander there are usually multiple things you want to keep track of. For example, commander damage from each player, your life total, poison counters (also relevant in Modern), stuff like that. and I find that having a rigid 2-3 digit counter affixed to your deckbox won't tell you enough, so you'll just resort to dice anyway. I also think that while the idea of keeping track of your opponent's life totals is cool, it seems like something you'll more often than not just forget / cant be bothered doing (well, I would anyway).
I did have an idea a while back about a much larger deck box (designed to fit 100+ double, possibly triple) sleeved cards + sideboard, spares and tokens. It also had dice storage as a detachable container (not just a drawer but a proper container) which was stored inside the other box. I had toyed with the idea of having a ratcheting life counter on this since it would be a much smaller form and the extra counters are in that box so its not so cumbersome.
As for spindown holders, I would recommend taking a look at the battle for zendikar dual deck packaging - the decks come with 2 D20 spindowns and the plastic surrounding it is designed to cradle the dice. Could give you some good ideas/measurements.
October 16, 2015 6:30 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #12
Pen and paper is inarguably the best method of tracking information in a game; I don't think any life counters can ever honestly propose to replace it. But for the purposes of tracking life in casual or otherwise uncomplicated games, they're sufficient.
I have a custom cedar box with a 2.625 x 2.625 x 3.625 (inches) internal compartment, and that is sufficient to hold a double-sleeved Commander deck. It's a tight fit, though, and there's no room for tokens or anything like that. It's probably the smallest size that could accommodate that number of cards in that manner. If you wanted to store a deck along with a sideboard and tokens, you'd want a bit more give between the elements, and you'd almost certainly want some partition to section the deck from the side/tokens.
At some point, though, the question becomes "Is this too big?"
I think the Satin Tower is probably about the biggest single deck box you might want. Any more than that and it's impractical to keep on the table (although that's fine if your POU is merely transportation and not in-game use). You could reasonably incorporate a spindown divot or two in the lid, but extra bells and whistles will add to the frame.
October 16, 2015 7:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
After reflecting a bit more on enpc's comment, why not think about the things you need most in a game?
If I could have a Satin Tower setup with sufficient space for cards and a secure box for a few dice, plus a slot for a pen, I'd be set. If you expanded the design to a double-wide deckbox, you could incorporate a slot for a small marble memo book as well. (Some of those pads are actually small enough that they might fit even with a single-deck design).
With that kind of design, you would have all you need to actually play (except your playmat, if you use one) contained in one box. That's pretty much the ultimate convenience. When I played Standard, I'd need to fish through the pencil pocket of my bag for the pen and pad, and then get another box for my deck, and then have my playmat somewhere as well. Moving tables meant carrying all of that in two hands or putting it back in the bag.
October 17, 2015 7:26 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #14
Those are some very good points Epochalyptik and enpc.
I think the trickiest part is that a lot of these sizes can change based on the specific item. Do I design for the largest of these? An average size? I only play at FNM or casually, so I usually just use a spindown and hope it doesn't roll.
I like the idea for holding a pen and pad though. I have a rough design made, I'll post an image likely later tonight for feedback.
October 17, 2015 8:17 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
Which specific item, specifically?
If you mean the notebook, then a 3.25x4.5x0.375" blank would probably be sufficient. Most mini marble notepads tend to be those dimensions. You'd want the slot to probably measure 3.5x4.75x0.25" internally to give you some room (the top third of the height would be contained within the lid).
For the pen, a .375" bore in the base component and a .5" bore in the lid will accommodate a standard Bic ballpoint disposable pen. The pen's overall height is just under 6", which means that you could build the dice storage in and maybe make a side-opening door or detachable bottom lid for it rather than making it a removable unit.
With cards being the dimensions they are, you could actually do a vertical stack of two decks stored horizontally and still have room for a dice compartment, assuming the total height is enough to accomodate the pen. This would mean the opening and use of the box would be trickier, though.
October 17, 2015 8:46 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #16
I was thinking of the notebook.
Here's a thought: the lid in my current prototype is 100mm x 120mm. The notebook you described Epochalyptik is approximately 80mm x 120mm. If I added 5-10mm (just a bigger token or die compartment) to the width and thickened/bored out the lid, the notepad would fit right in. I think that would be kinda cool. I think a loop on the outside of the box - or thicken a side and bore that out - would suffice for pen storage.
Here is an image of what I threw together in the past hour or so:
A few features that may not be obvious from the image, and a few discussion points:
- The divider is removable. With the divider in, the box accomodates a double-sleeved 60-card deck and a 15-card sideboard. With the divider removed, the box will fit a double-sleeved EDH deck, with a little extra room for tokens, but no divider.
- The divider is in the shape of a "fat T" (there may be a technical term for this... if so, my MechE coursework has failed me thus far. Maybe it's something for grad students...) so that the cards don't shift into the slot (a mistake that I made when building my large deck box, which holds four decks)
- What are thoughts about the semi-circle on the left side? It was put there to make it easier to remove the deck - should I remove it? Add one to the divider (I meant to do this)? Should I have the lid extend into that space to completely seal the box?
- The pivoting door on the right is for dice. I can provide an image of the piece itself if desired.
- All of the walls are currently 5mm thick. Is that too thick? It seems like it's a little bit much. How small should I go? I'm thinking 3.5mm.
- The lid will be latched shut in the front, and hinged in the back. This will keep the die compartment from opening, and the lid only has to be unlocked in order for the die compartment to easily open
- This design does not incorporate the slot for a spindown; should that be included, and if so, where? The current design does not have a surface that remains horizontal while in use. I could make the die compartment 5mm taller, and have it be its own lid, and shrink the size of the main lid. This would eliminate the notepad-in-lid possibility
Overall, I am pleased with the final size. There are still some things to figure out (latches, lid, notepad storage, etc.), so I am very interested to hear some thoughts.
October 17, 2015 11:20 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
3.5mm would probably be fine, but I suppose it depends on the POU. If you plan to throw this into a bag with a bunch of other hard objects like some kind of savage, 5mm would be better. But for the average player, I think 3.5mm is sufficient.
I wouldn't put an exposed thumb hole on the side because it would potentially allow liquid or dirt to get inside the box. I tend to like my deck boxes to completely cover the contents. The thumb hole would be more appropriately placed in the divider. Alternatively, you could design the lid to cover it.
I'm skeptical of the pivoting dice tray. By its design, you need the lid open to tilt it out. But this means you'll either risk the dice spilling when you open it or you'll have to hold any remaining contents of the box in place while you rotate the box itself (keeping the bottom of the dice tray parallel to the table from start to finish).
A notepad in the lid would be nice, and you could theoretically just put an outside C channel for the pen. I think some kind of internal storage would be preferable because such a channel would either be exposed or require you to build out that side of the box around it to prevent it from snapping if it catches on something.
If you do put the pad in the lid, I would build the walls of the box up a bit and set the pad compartment such that the pad is entirely contained when the lid is closed. This will prevent it from falling out while the box is in your bag.
Overall, though, I was thinking of a design more like the Satin Tower.
I like the idea of the dice tray being a removable component and always being oriented such that there's no turning or reorienting of the box to get it out safely. The walls of the box could easily be shifted outward in order to accommodate pad and pen, and everything would then be contained with a minimum of moving parts (zero, actually, if you have friction-locking components). This means it's simple to make (you just print and finish the parts rather than have to incorporate hinges and latches).
October 17, 2015 11:46 p.m.
Coinman1863 says... #18
I do like the idea so far, but I agree with Epochalyptik, that there should be as few moving parts as possible therefore having less parts that could break in use. I also agree with Epoch on the 3.5mm for the wall thickness and his his reasoning for no thumb hole.
The divider Idea is good, I would try to keep it. It allows for variability for what decks can go in it, unlike Satin Towers which are almost exclusively for EDH deck.
I personally would try to make the dice compartment like the Satin Tower's one so that you can access the dice without having to open the door. This would also allow for some personalization space because the door (if you have one) would not go all the way down to the bottom of the box since you would not have to accommodate the dice box. And since the dice bow would pull out the bottom, that (could) let you put the D20 holder in the middle of the dice compartment depending on how much space you have.
Honestly the Satin Tower has it pretty well done. Make the cards vertical and put the divider in the main compartment with a friction fit lid (It doesn't even have to be as large as the Satin Tower's one, half as much contact would do the job with the PLA). With the magic of 3D Printing, you could make the back bigger/thicker to provide slots for a notepad and pen which the friction fit lid would also fit over.
I sooo want to print this soon. Looks really good so far.
October 18, 2015 10:06 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #19
Epochalyptik and Coinman1863, I agree with most of what you've both suggested. I have been wary of the pivoting dice compartment as well, but I'm afraid that the designs we're looking at will be too similar to the Satin Tower. Here's a thought:
Extend both the left and right sides by 10-15mm outwards. This will allow for a sideboard slot perpendicular to the main deck slot. These will also extend down either size of the dice tray, giving us the height necessary to hold a notebook and pen (holes inside of these "arms"). The rest will remain similar to the Satin Tower.
I apologize for a poor explanation - I will throw together a 3D model later today for a better representation of my idea.
October 18, 2015 12:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
I put something together quickly in SketchUp (I don't have true CAD software).
Here's a box suitable for a Standard deck with sideboard and tokens or for a Commander deck. The space is large enough to accommodate double sleeves. It has one removable divider that has 0.0625x0.25" tabs that lock into divots in the inside of the card compartment.
The notepad slot is large enough for a typical 3.25x4.5" mini marble notebook. The pen slot is designed for a typical Bic disposable pen. The top container is suitable for a number of dice and markers.
Here's a box that can hold all of the above, but it also has extra room for tokens and other cards even if you're storing a double-sleeved Commander deck. The notepad slot on this model can store a larger 4x6" marble notebook.
The components are all friction fit. Both models have 0.5" radius thumb holes in the dividers and sides of the deck storage to facilitate card removal.
Ultimately, the model does resemble a Satin Tower, but there are a limited number of ways you can design a multi-tray vertical deckbox.
October 18, 2015 1:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
The other benefit, I should mention, is that you can remove the middle section and use the box with just the deck tray and the lid if you don't plan to use paper and pen.
EDIT: I realized that I would need to modify the depth of the lid in order to make that possible. Either that or you would need to store the deck horizontally instead of vertically.
October 18, 2015 4:50 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #22
We took a similar approach to the design, Epochalyptik. I chose to keep the box as small as possible for something to take to FNM when I don't want to bother with trade binders and such. I like that yours can retain functionality should you remove the middle section - a modular deck box would be very cool.
I went with a drawer design, but I'm hesitant about it. It can easily be changed to a friction fit. The top is very simple so I left it off to the side in this exploded view.
It's larger than I would have liked, but it's just an idea I put together in the past hour or so.
October 20, 2015 9:19 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
Drawer designs aren't inherently bad, but you'll want to design some kind of simple resistance lock for it to ensure that it doesn't pop open during transit. A pin lock or even a leaf spring lock would fit the bill.
Another option would be to somehow tie the lid closure to the locking mechanism, but that method is somewhat ungainly if the drawer is on the bottom of the box.
I do recommend adding some thumb holes to the card trays in your design. Even if the top 25% of the cards stick out above the lip, I find that the closer to the middle you can get purchase, the less likely the cards are to slide around. Slippery sleeves make some deck boxes unusable.
I like that you went with rounded corners and added an extra pen slot, though.
October 20, 2015 9:35 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #24
@ Epochalyptik -- I'm not certain about the drawer, but I like that it's one piece and has a little more resistance to falling out. There is a somewhat of a pressure fit mechanism to keep it closed - but that reminds me that I stupidly forgot to add a way to actually open the drawer... I guess you can push it from the rear, but that's not a great design.
Do you have any suggestions for a way to open the drawer? An external knob? And do you think that the pressure fitting is enough to keep it closed? The rails do not extend the length of the box, so it cannot come out the back. It's hard to see in the image, so I can get a better view if you'd like.
Another part that I forgot to add was thumb holes. Thank you for reminding me. I was bored this past summer and decided to make my own deck storage box (link if you're curious) as one of my first attempts at woodworking, and it completely slipped my mind to add thumb holes in that as well. Quite a pain to remove a double sleeved EDH deck, especially with my small hands. I can add the thumb holes in the dividers though.
October 20, 2015 9:50 p.m.
Coinman1863 says... #25
I feel like a friction fit drawer would be fine. As mentioned before, the PLA has lots of friction between parts of PLA.
Also I would go with a pin lock (if you want a lock) since it is the easiest to design, simplest to print, and the least likely to break out of our other options.
enpc says... #2
Probably one of the more important questions that should be asked is what are you wanting to construct the box out of? are you looking tO 3D print it? Are you going to produce fabrication drawings to then construct out of timber or PVC? Do you have access to milling facilities?
Also, on a side note, which CAD package are you going to use?
October 16, 2015 1:37 a.m.