Am I A Jerk? Discuss.
General forum
Posted on Oct. 28, 2017, 9:28 a.m. by topdecker17
Am I a jerk for really disliking the people who show up to FNM with foiled-out net-decks or something very similar?
Context: I was at my local FNM over the past month, using a deck I built with a deckbuilder's toolkit, several boosters, and a few strategic, timely trades. The deck was the best I could make it, and it had proven somewhat effective, even punching quite a bit above its weight as far as the price range went.
The past two times I participated, I went 2-2. Both times, one of my losses was against the same person, and both times he was using a variant on either aggro or midrange energy beatdown, a deck that is extremely meta and used to the point where nearly every variant of it has been done in a tournament somewhere, and nearly always runs away with first place.
His versions many cards, staples, and combos I had definitely seen elsewhere, in other decks under the same umbrella. The first iteration was a g/w/b deck that ran heart of kiran, gideon of the trials, and generic energy staples. Not too crazy, not too creative. The same went for his second deck, which was u/g/b energy and slightly more focused around control than aggro beatdown.
The first time I get wrecked by this guy, and the second time I still get wrecked, but much more slowly, where I at least got to make a few plays.
Now, this isn't just some dude who likes to win and is quite friendly/amicable. This is the kind of person who nods curtly at you, sits down, and uses hand gestures to indicate everything. He sits there stone-faced the entire time, and not once does he ever engage in idle banter or chat or even comments about the weather. He gives one-word answers, if any, and is only barely courteous.
Or, at least, that's how he was with me. When he saw how budget my deck was, he suggested putting powerful (and expensive) staples in there like fatal push and such, and I notified him that I simply don't have that much money to spend on what I consider a fun hobby with a slight chance for profit. I said that I like to challenge myself and work with the several cards I have rather than save up every penny for one or two cards each week. He stopped talking afterwards, and the next few times I saw him that night and the next FNM he didn't even acknowledge I was there if he could help it.
This isn't normal behavior, honestly, he has spoken with many other players, players I consider acquaintances at the very least who I enjoy chatting with. He speaks often about how "good" or "bad" cards are or where the meta is, or how certain decklists have done in major tournaments (most likely so he can take a lot of inspiration from them). Sometimes, when appropriate, I'll drop a quiet remark or pipe in about something or other, and he'll either just say "yeah..." and then ignore me, or not acknowledge what I said at all.
Just recently, I was chatting with someone about how I was doing, and how the only decks I have trouble against are decks the owners put a lot of money into, as the two decks I lost against were very clearly 200-300+ dollar decks, and I can't match that quality of deckbuilding with my limited resources. Just then, the man of the hour arrived, the one I was talking about, and stood there, listening to me talk about how frustrating it was to play against players that have invested so much money into their decks at a FNM of all places, when I go there to have fun, how oppressive it can get, etc.
Now when he walked up and started listening, however, I didn't stop. I kept going, because a tiny part of me wanted this person to hear it. I was a bit sick of losing to this same person playing essentially a different take on the same concept (energy beatdown) and seeing him place first every single FNM because he borrowed heavily from winning card pools without changing them too much (other than gideon of the trials and heart of kiran, which has been done in the context of other decks, and he kind of just mashed together).
Now that you know the context, allow me to repost the question:
Am I a jerk for doing this, and for disliking this person?
Of course, this question only raises more questions, such as whether it is fair or not for people who have hundreds and hundreds of dollars to spend on Magic and wish to make it their career to even attend FNMs in the first place, seeing as it is a place for new players and intermediate players, players getting back into standard, and experienced players trying out new concepts and ideas to meet- namely, a "semi-casual" environment, or whether this person is wrong for treating FNM like it was the last game of Worlds in such an environment. I understand that maybe for him it is considered "training," but how much training remains there for him, really, if he just keeps taking first place and beating the same general group of people? That's like a speedrunner only training on the first five minutes of a game even after he got the world record.
I understand that every player has the freedom to choose how they play and what cards they use, but this isn't a question of "should or shouldn't he", but rather "is it really OK for this to be happening?" and "what are the consequences of things like this continuing" and "am I just being a disgusting millennial that needs to 'git gud' and start dropping hundreds of dollars on cards if I expect to do well at all."
I'm curious to see what your input is on this, and if any of you have solutions for the massive gap in the outlook in the game between the different player types, and how it may or may not affect the meta and game health as a whole (for instance, how the differences between a Timmy, Johnny, and Spike can positively or negatively affect the state of the game).
You can't get upset with someone using a good deck. But if the persons a dick he's a dick. I would be super happy and talkative while playing against him to get him off his game. The hand gesture thing is just ridiculous
October 28, 2017 10:12 a.m.
topdecker17 says... #5
@guessling
I did celebrate my 2/2 victory, as that was my goal, was to win at least half the rounds at FNM using a very limited budget deck I put together rather quickly.
I suppose I was a bit saltier this time around mainly due to the fact that the two people I lost against were the person I mentioned, and his relative, who I had a sneaking suspicion used cards from his brother or cousin's evidently expansive and expensive card pool.
I am strictly a Johnny. The best part of the game is making decks that work, and do what they need to do in a unique or interesting way. I shudder at the phrase "but that's not meta, that won't actually win you anything in tournaments". I greatly enjoy constructing rogue decks and brewing brand new takes on preexisting concepts (as in, instead of going naya dinos, going mono-red budget rush dinos and seeing if it works).
So perhaps it is the difference in outlooks that rubs me the wrong way. I can understand difference in opinion, and I can even understand being competitive...in my own way, I am competitive, because I want to win the game. That's the point of a game with an objective, is to reach it. I just want to do it my own way, and still have it work, and when I see someone taking the elevator when I'm stuck wheezing up the stairs, sometimes I get a bit fed up and say, "man, it must be really nice, riding in that luxury elevator instead of going up the hard way". Sometimes I can enjoy the scent of the flowers on the ground, but I can't help but look up at the top and wonder what it must be like there.
October 28, 2017 10:14 a.m.
topdecker17 says... #6
@shadow63 Yeah, I understand that. Like I said, I enjoy talking with people and playing against people most of the time, even if they clearly spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on their deck. I was running budget grixis control and narrowly lost against someone running essentially the same deck, but with better cards. He was really nice, and I always look forwards to facing off against him the next week.
But this guy, he was something else. It was like winning every FNM in first place as compared to second place was the difference between life or death. He played like a poker player, and had this obnoxious "stony" facade about him that made him really seem snooty and standoffish. I think it was because the sight of someone using a budget deck against his pro-tour inspired design irked him or something, because I haven't yet met a player who's been that aloof and serious.
He also had this weird annoying thing he did where whenever I started talking with someone, even just making small talk, he always seemed to be hovering nearby, like he was listening in on our conversation to see if I mentioned him at all or something. Keep in mind, this is a massive comic shop, with a play area of at least 7 long tables, each composed of several smaller table end-to-end. I get the feeling it was supposed to be some psychological tactic or something, but maybe I'm too socially inept to grasp it. All it did was make me mildly uncomfortable and irritable.
October 28, 2017 10:24 a.m.
If it bothers you that much you can say something to the lgs owner
October 28, 2017 10:31 a.m.
People who wants to play in bigger tourneys, tests their decks in Fnms and such. They play meta decks, well because those are the good decks. They don't think about how creative and new their deck is. They play what is best/what they itself like to play. Like, i play Storm,i enjoy playing it and i don't care that there are million other players with almost exact same deck.
Of course it isn't fun for players that just wants to have fun, but it is part of the game to play competitive and they have to test their deck a lot, so Fnms are great for it. You could think that beating casual decks isn't training, but it is much better than nothing and always in Fnm there are other more serious players anyway.
Take it as a challenge to beat those more expensive decks.
I see no point on whining about someone who plays good deck.
And yes i'm competitive player myself.
October 28, 2017 10:32 a.m.
topdecker17 says... #9
@JeskaiM4n I never whined about people who use good decks, only those who use essentially the exact same deck every other player uses every single night at the same comic shop FNM. You can make the argument that they are testing a deck or trying to work the kinks out of it, but considering this person has been going to this LGS for quite some time, the same crowd that he got first place against is going to be there again. I made that point in the original post actually, since his finance level, skill level, and deckbuilding level are all well above average, going to a local FNM every single night with slight variations of the same exact archetype is a bit...excessive.
Even so, I wouldn't even mind it nearly as much if he were less standoffish and cold towards everyone who is even slightly below him. He talks animatedly to anyone at his level or very close, but anyone who maybe isn't quite there either financially, skill-wise, or strategy/knowledge-wise isn't "worth his time". That's the attitude I get from him.
Maybe I'm wrong and he just isn't very open in general, maybe I caught him on a bad day two weeks in a row, but it's the combination of 1. rudeness 2. expensive, strictly-meta deck and 3. lack of self-awareness/humility that makes him rather difficult to get a grasp on.
I also mentioned in a previous comment that there are quite a few people with decks sitting around 200-300 dollars that I meet with and play with regularly, some of them with not just very strictly meta decks, but with literal netdecks from the pro tour, and I still enjoy their company and enjoy playing against their decks.
But this person is simply unpleasant to play against, for whatever reason. Nigh-robotic, even.
October 28, 2017 10:46 a.m.
I just want to point out something: the poker player facade is likely not meant to intimidate or be rude, especially if hes not rude in other verbal ways. I do the same thing, and its for two reasons. 1), I take the game seriously and need to be silent in order to take in all the different aspects of the board state and go through various lines of play. I do this to get better at the game, which is my only goal. 2), if Im chatty, I lose more often to stupid mistakes, and those make me more upset than losing.
Indicating plays through gestures is an extreme example of poker face, but suffice to say there are a lot of reasons one may be nonverbal while playing.
Please be careful not to project your feelings onto other players if you havent tried to connect with them first. Its unkind.
October 28, 2017 10:47 a.m. Edited.
topdecker17 says... #11
But regardless, the main reason other than talking about this anonymous person and how strange he was, as well as whether or not I am wrong in not really having fun playing against him was to use my encounter with him as a launching point for discussion about a bigger issue that I've been seeing lately...how do you think the differing points of view between the basic archetypes of MTG players (Timmies, Johnnies, and Spikes) affect the health and state of the game? Do you think it's overall a positive effect, or do you think that the differences in opinion, more often than not, give rise to an environment more hostile to one side than the others?
October 28, 2017 10:54 a.m.
topdecker17 Everyone has their own playstyles, everyone is not really enjoyable to play against of course, but if you have played 200 games with your deck it comes like automatically to play it without thinking too much.
I can't know really about just this player, but i just talk about competitive players as general.
And in Protour they play meta decks, if you want to success you usually kinda have to play those same decks. I don't know what format you are talking about, but in Modern/Legacy/Vintage 200-300$ deck is cheap.
In standard it is very usual price for good deck.
Specially in older formats players have sometimes built their deck for years and they really like it, so they get all fancy arts and foils. I see nothing wrong with it. And then some people just have too much money.
October 28, 2017 11:03 a.m.
You can't alter what other people find fun.
If there's a Spike at your local FNM that gets his kicks from fine tuning the proper number of Abrade he should include in the sideboard of his Temur Energy deck vs your local meta or from developing a deeper understanding of how he should sequence his threats in various matchups, you're just gonna have to hold that or stop attending.
I understand where you're coming from. Playing against net decks as well as decks filled with tons of expensive cards sucks and it can sometimes feel like a real grind when you face off against 3 different players all playing a variant of the same deck in a row.
However, I have to point out that all competitive games benefit from the existence of a meta. It may seem weird to you, but the fact that we're able to net deck stuff with ease is actually good for the game.
It's perfectly natural for you to feel the way that you do. However, that guy at FNM has done nothing wrong and for you to be salty enough to air it out in a passive-aggressive manner will hinder your growth as a player and an individual in the long run.
I was once in your shoes. I couldn't spend more than $200 on a standard deck and even that was after a considerable commitment. Still, because I was good at the game, I almost always made it positive at FNM and could top 8 every once in a while even at a store with lots of competitive players playing net decks. The trick was to build something that was at once fun for me to play while also being effective against my local shop. If you're actually good, you can wipe the floor at FNM regularly even if you don't have a tiered deck.
If you're not that great at the game and you can't put too much money into the game, you're starting off with a massive handicap. In that case, you need to adjust your goals. Try not going 0-2 in any of your rounds or maintaining a positive or even record for the night. Try to identify when you sideboarded properly or when you made optimal plays even when they led to your defeat. With something other than #1 finish or a spot in the top 8 to look forward to, you're going to have an easier time having fun playing the game.
Take a deep look at your current situation. Try to realize that literally all of your current problems occur as a result of YOUR reactions to events outside of your control.
October 28, 2017 3:09 p.m.
The situation with the different player types having different expectations is even more severe in EDH with house bannings and the label "unfun".
I usually bring multiple decks to a matchup. I have a variation of RG pummeller with haste and a budget land base. However, I also run a pirates deck that is more aggro-storm with Revel in Riches as a sideboard option and none of the money cards (and a budget landbase).
I can have people borrow decks too as I have relatively balanced pairs of decks sleeved up.
No matter what, a good game can be found this way. The only exception is that I won't stand well against a top tier tournament deck. Against the same opponent in multiplayer EDH or draft, I might win.
The variety in the game in terms of formats and playstyles is part of what makes it as enduring and engaging as it is. I think it's very good for the game.
October 28, 2017 3:54 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #15
Seriously salty. 2-300 dollar decks are arguably still somewhat budget. If you don't run the best deck then run cards to beat the best deck, otherwise you have to accept that you're not gonna always win.
October 28, 2017 8:23 p.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #16
I would've requested he vocalize his moves, I hate gesturing. If he doesn't vocalize then you can keep using that to your advantage, because if he doesn't clarify that hes starting his combat and declares attackers, you get a chance to cast at the start of combat spells anyways, because he didn't cast. Same with a few other things but that's the best example. It applies to him ending his turn with a gesture... If so it as much as possible just to throw him off his game
October 28, 2017 9:15 p.m.
Bulldawg1310 says... #17
Part of your running into the same deck problem is you are playing standard. There are only so many cards to choose from and lets face it, standard rarely retains its value, i remember when Deathmist Raptor was a 25 dollar card now its 3 bucks...have you considered changing formats? Youre still going to run into net deck elitists, hell, im one of em, but atleast youll have a different idea of decks and more competition as most lgs have atleast a variance of decks in modern. It sucks we have jerks that destroy a very wonderful game but at the end of the day if YOU enjoy playing it, dont let some ass bag ruin your time. Wish you all the luck and hope you consider jumpin formats, atleast with modern you can consistently know what to expect and build around it. I think its a much more home brew friendly format.
October 28, 2017 9:27 p.m.
Oloro_Magic says... #19
First off you are in no way a jerk for being upset with this situation, however you are in a way ignoring the reality of the game.
Personally I take the game very seriously and therefore FNM standard has essentially become a training ground. I do not talk much during games other than announcing attacks, blocks, etc. however after the game then it becomes a good time to talk to the other player and accept mutual feedback. I understand you don't want suggestions of expensive cards, a lot of people don't, but remember that even in this scenario a suggestion of a good card is someone who is trying to help. I would think about how you responded to the suggestion of Fatal Push described above as you possibly could have come across as rude which made this player stand-offish to you.
There is nothing wrong with you playing a decently competitive homebrew but many players, like myself, will always want to compete at a high level and therefore use the best cards in the format and considering this is standard the card pool at the top is very small leaving little room for tons of variation, ex. I am currently running Sunbird's Invocation midrange. If this guy is too competitive (like just talks down to people which you haven't indicated) then you are justified in not liking him, but even at my LGS there are a ton of players who take the game seriously and some that just want to have fun but you find a way for everyone to get along.
I would also second the suggestions of switching to budget modern as there is a ton of variance in the format and budget decks as outliers do often stand a chance.
October 29, 2017 10:50 a.m.
shaistyone says... #20
I wouldn't say that you're a jerk, no. Perhaps a bit too emotional, but that's nothing new for most most magic players.
I agree with the majority of posters, when they say that a change of perspective is in order. Homebrews/budget decks can certainly have plenty of play. I have never actually played a deck I didn't build myself, so believe me I know what I'm talking about. Focus on attacking the game from a different angle, on being unpredictable, and you'll have plenty of fun and success in the game.
When you see a Netdecker, just consider if that person had a choice in the matter. Playing vs building are two very different skillsets, and many people don't have both. I've played against plenty of players who just don't have the knack, and they know it. Their only alternative if they want to compete is to do the research. I try not to look down on them for this, just as I would hope someone musical wouldn't look down on me because I have the musical capacity of a chimp with some rocks. :)
October 29, 2017 11:51 a.m.
I used to be TO, and essentially run a store in Chicago about 8/9 years ago. I know the player you are talking about, and I know you. Let me preface everything I'm about to write by saying neither of you are jerks.
This may be the only outlet/social interaction that guy gets. A game like this attract many people within a certain spectrum. I found people like that guy do poorly in social situations, and that store is his opportunity where everyone shares his language, and interests. The value he places on others is solely based on their abilities in MtG. Being cool or friendly has no worth to him, and never will.
It may be worth your time to reflect to recognize why you don't like the guy. He's super serious about a game that you are more casual/social about. It may also benefit you to try to think a little bit like him, and since you aren't going to have a friendly relationship with him he may have some value in terms of skill/strategy. If he does keep up on all of the articles he probably is a good source of knowledge on the game. Players like that also sometimes like to dump garbage cards that casual players love. A strategy hear would be to let him talk. You don't have to scoff at expensive cards simply stating "Yeah, I'm working towards those". If he is someone you are going to continually run into you will need to manage your expectations of him. It sounds like you're happy about your homebrew. Keep it up, and don't let this guy ruin the game. Switching to the limited format may also be a better experience for you as well.
Also, if you really want to poop in his cereal just find out what other decks are sideboarding against his. Mainboard those cards, and cut him short. If he gets upset just tell him you're playing the meta.
October 30, 2017 2:18 p.m.
I think a lot of what you are experiencing comes down to your perspective on the FNM format, and your LGS.
You sound like a Jenny/Johnny. You enjoy building decks and want to win on your terms. Nothing wrong with that.
However, you have to realise that means that winning matches will not occur at a very regular rate for you.
The true Jenny/Johnny doesn't give a shit about how many matches they LOSE, but rather about how many matches they WIN.
If they only win one match in an evening they consider that a successful evening, because they won a match on THEIR TERMS.
If you are playing in a very competitive FNM environment, that will probably be the norm.
If you are playing against someone who you find unenjoyable, then just forfeit to them. They are only gonna wipe the floor with you anyway, and you save yourself the unpleasantness of playing against them.
I do that all the time.
If it makes you feel any better, you will have robbed them of one more chance to test their deck, and you may assist the stats to be against them at the end of the night as they beat you 2-0, meaning that you weren't as "tough" an Opponent.
I've played all over the world and netdecks have become a LOT more prevalent, especially as they are cheaper now.
You can still beat them, you just have to be very, VERY good at building, and know your local meta.
I've done it. My brews are all original, often land in the top 4, and sometimes nab the top spot.
Mind you, the next week they might as easily go 0-13.
I enjoy the challenge of seeing how many deck types I can beat. I tweak and tweak my decks to make them stronger.
I have a lot of disposable income, though. That means I can put all what I consider the best cards, in my decks. It is VERY difficult to win without using ANY of the current staples eg. Fatal Push in
I am a "chatty" player, unless I am facing a tough deck.
I do love "pimpimg" out my decks, because I am very proud of them. I use all the promos available, and things like full art Lands. I often put foil cards in that I have cracked, or earnt. I don't really see anything wrong with people wanting to do that, although I guess it might emphasise the disparity in income between players.
It's only something I've started doing recently. I used to be just as proud of my decks because they had NO special cards. I thought that made them seem more like "work horses", and kind of tough.
You don't HAVE to only play Standard at FNM.
If you have friends who play Magic you can just play around the Kitchen Table. That environment is often more relaxed.
If you don't have friends or family who play, either TEACH some of them how to play (be very gentle as smashing them repeatedly will turn them off), or try to find some people at your LGS who would be happy to meet up for some casual games of Magic.
If you can't use any of my advice above them it might be time for you to take a break from Magic. Or to try a different format, like Commander.
Good luck with whatever path you choose.
guessling says... #2
You don't sound like a jerk because you are aware of others and are questioning yourself.
However, you may be missing out on being friends with a person who doesn't sound like much of a jerk either.
Acceptance of the competitive aspect of the game may help you more than anyone else.
Following from that acceptance might come the recognition that 2-2 should be celebrated in this senario. Then you can be happy instead of irritated.
In my case, for the last several years I was stretched between a competitive tournament playing / FNM placing brother- and a pile of MS kids who literally can't buy their own cards. I found that EDH, drafting, and pre-release events were store based games I was up for. While I could sometimes pull a W off on my brother with 60 card format decks, he quickly surpassed me when started getting cradles and aether vials - and also getting practice with that level of intensity and nuance. I learned some of the latter in turn from him (and from watching videos) but accept that a good night is one where I win one match against him in 60 card constructed.
For some people it is casual. For others it is more than a game. Even for me, it is slightly professional because I run a card club so I don't just sit on my eternal format decks and ignore new sets or never crack sealed product the way I otherwise did.
October 28, 2017 9:51 a.m.