Are Proxy Cards the New Normal?
General forum
Posted on Feb. 10, 2020, 7:11 p.m. by Rabid_Wombat
Been out of the game for a while due to being too busy but made the time yesterday to go to my LGS after work.
Two dudes sitting next to me had totally proxied decks - one even had printed out Unglued basic lands lol
Then I watched some guys playing Pioneer - both had proxied up cards (slips of paper saying card name in sleeves) but most of their decks were at least legit.
Is this happening everywhere or is it just the peeps at my locals being broke?
SynergyBuild says... #3
Nope, at Cape Fear Games I see 0 proxied decks, only in the cEDH pods do I see a few proxied Mana Crypts/OG Dual lands, but all the players with them have the card, they just keep it separate.
February 10, 2020 7:26 p.m.
I mean pioneer is a brand new format so they where probably play testing before they commit to buying a deck
February 10, 2020 7:56 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #5
ToolisMaynard I'm old-school so I was kinda anti-proxy but if everyone else is playing them around me I just gotta smile and enjoy the game lol
I know that there is a lotta folk out there hurting financially and being able to spend $100+ on a new Pioneer deck is a luxury. Heck, if I'd known that proxies were now so much more acceptable by the community I may have saved some dough myself. A year ago no-one around here played proxies.
I just got the feeling that if that store banned proxies they may as well ban mtg from being played there. There are no tournaments in my city anymore since Wizards pulled support so I guess that means no-one really cares about their deck being legal like they used too..
February 10, 2020 8:40 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #6
Rabid_Wombat I'm anti-proxy, unless they own the card, in which case I am 100% okay with it!
February 11, 2020 12:10 a.m.
Playing the game >= playing the game with the official cards (unless in a sanctioned tournament) is basically the opinion of WOTC. So, if everyone is ok with it, there is no reason not to do it.
February 11, 2020 5:30 a.m.
ToolisMaynard says... #8
SynergyBuildreally? So instead of playing with someone who uses proxies and maybe having a good time you will refuse to play with them? Seems a bit harsh, I think you may be forgetting the point of magic the “gathering”. What are you some elitist. Sad world we live in
February 11, 2020 8:47 a.m.
@ToolisMaynard: You can respond to a person you disagree with while remaining respectful. Calling them an elitist is uncalled for. There are valid reasons for being against proxies, even if you disagree with those reasons and are fine with proxies yourself.
February 11, 2020 9:34 a.m.
Suns_Champion says... #10
Proxies are very much a thing. I use them all the time, including 99% percent proxied decks. My playgroup and people at my LGS do the same. A printed copy of a card does looks exactly the same as a real card. It can function the same too. I want to play the game, not appreciate the exact cardboard makeup of an object. In life, what’s the big difference between paper and cardstock? If that difference prevents you and others from having a good time and playing a game... you do you I guess.
Rules I use for proxies:
- Have a real commander (gotta treat ya commander with respect)
- Color proxies (readability)
- Sleeved
- Proxy within your normal budget or the budget of your playgroup, do not abuse the power of proxies
- Make sure people are okay with you playing with proxies before the game starts
- If someone does not want to play with you because of proxies, respect that. Grab a real deck or respectfully part ways and find a different game.
February 11, 2020 10:41 a.m.
ToolisMaynard says... #11
Nemesis, and what exactly is your definition of an elitist? To me it’s someone who shows up to the card shop not to have fun and meet people but stomp every game and suck the soul out of everyone they play against with their 10k dollar decks that rich mommy or daddy bought for them. I’ve seen it too many times, they show up with one deck, power level 10 and refuse to play with anyone else’s deck to make it more enjoyable. On top of that they will take 10 minutes on their turn to play 2 spells and not say a word to anyone or try to be a decent human being. So what’s your definition?
February 11, 2020 11:43 a.m.
My stance is unless your testing it's the same as SynergyBuild. It's not about being an "elitist" or some other "I'm better then you" reason but rather If I am going to spend the money on a deck to sit down and play then I expect the same level of respect from you that you will also have spent the money on it. Again if your testing before you take the plunge into getting the more expensive cards then by all means test away but be honest and have the intent of getting the cards in a reasonable amount of time.
I have plenty of decks for EDH that have a lot of filler cards that I know are far from optimized so I can play the deck and upgrade as time goes on. My son and I both proxy Modern and Pauper decks to play test before we buy the cards... Yes I said Pauper a $50 deck that we probably own half the cards already we will proxy up because I fully understand that this game cost money but we understand that we are going to build the deck right or scrap it. Though for competitive decks I can see having full proxy library for play test to practice against in your play group but that is a different beast altogether.
February 11, 2020 11:45 a.m.
With respect ToolisMaynard, you come off as the bad guy when you start throwing out ad hominems, particularly when you are basing your posts on completely fabricated assumptions about another individual. Let's try to keep TappedOut the respectful center of discourse we all know it can be!
My thoughts on the subject:
Just pay attention to your meta. If you are the only person who has a problem with proxied cards, perhaps you need to be more lenient. If you are the only person who uses proxies, perhaps you need to purchase the cards yourself or less-expensive substitutions thereto. If it is a bit of a mix, your playgroup needs to sit down and have a conversation, imposing limitations on proxies (such as "only can proxy X number of cards") or imposing limitations on budget/power level so everyone can play on the same level with real cards.
I would also say that, when arriving in a new meta, you should presume that only real cards will be allowed, and use a 100% real deck--after all, no one in the new meta is likely to be upset with you over using real cards (even if you might get soundly defeated).
February 11, 2020 12:05 p.m.
ToolisMaynard says... #14
Caerwynits not that I’m trying to be disrespectful, I myself have a 5k dollar deck that took years to make and never have I told someone playing with proxies to not play with me, it’s more of the fact that I don’t think it’s cool to tell someone not to play with you because their cards are paper and not cardboard, given that, personally I’ve been abused when first starting to play magic and commander because I couldn’t find a table where people wanted to play against paper, even though their decks were real, it shouldn’t matter if the person across from you drops a Gaea's Cradleand you drop your own paper version of it and they throw a hissy fit because I didn’t spend $400 on a single card that’s largely used in creature based green decks, so just because you have more money than me at that moment in time to spend on a big boy card like that, I shouldn’t be able to drop a piece of paper that does the same thing? The argument is, people think because they spent all of that money they have the right to tell someone else that isn’t as fortunate that they can’t use that card( real example from experience) like how are you supposed to compete with stronger decks if you yourself doesn’t stand a chance!
February 11, 2020 12:25 p.m.
@ToolisMaynard: I'm not trying to be a jackass here with this response, but here it goes anyway - Play a different deck. You don't have to play a deck that relies on a $400 card. There are several great competitive decks that can be played without that kind of investment. You could also play with alternatives, like Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip. You can also play without the card altogether. Part of the competitive environment package is the high price tag associated with the top tier cards. If you don't want to pay that price, you don't have to play competitively. If you play in casual games, you won't need cards at that power level or price point.
The issue here is that you're attempting to play in a competitive environment without putting in the investment that others have put in. You can play the game with the pieces that you can afford, and despite the disparity in strength, it isn't your right to be able to play any card you want.
If you treat MTG like any other hobby it makes a little more sense that to play at a higher level, you'll have to put in more money. It's just like have to buy a better set of golf clubs or a better pair of running shoes.
February 11, 2020 12:54 p.m.
How about we all just ignore ToolisMaynard pretty sure hes a troll account. Hes been on the site for a year and only has one deck uploaded
February 11, 2020 1:04 p.m.
ToolisMaynard says... #17
Nemesisoh no I get what you’re trying to say and I do play in a competitive environment and I do have a deck that can compete very well that’s not the point I was trying to make, it took years to make that deck. But if someone was new starting out and wanted to play commander and the only place they can do it is at a lgs, then they’re not going to have a good time at mine unless they have a deck that can perform well, and to do that at a beginner level you either need to Proxy a deck or borrow someone’s deck because you show up with a precon and you may as well be seasoned with salt and pepper because you’re gonna get eating alive, that being said I do have other decks that are about a 6-7 power level that I can use to play against people, the point I’m trying to make is, what’s more fun and exciting, making a proxy deck that you can eventually buy the cards for but still have fun and be able to compete or show up playing cards like Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip at a Gaea's Cradle level table? Obviously that card is okay but it’s not going to do much unless you meet the certain requirements to make it flip, what I’m trying to say is why would you be against someone using paper at the same level you’re using cardboard. I see what you’re trying to say though, cards like that just don’t fly at a high power lgs scene which is more common imo than not
February 11, 2020 1:08 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #18
ToolisMaynard I never said I'd refuse anyone dang, I just don't exactly like it, I don't recommend it, and I play a lot of tournament Magic where it is illegal to run but some players will try to cheat the rules. No problem playing some casual EDH with someone who proxies!
The most expensive deck I play is a cEDH deck that costs 4k, however, I mostly play decks that cost less than 20 dollars in EDH as a challenge. I have never been considered elitist since I have worked to give suggestions, advice, cards, and entire decks to every single person who has asked me.
I have always changed decks when people don't like a certain strategy and I am not in a tournament setting since I carry multiple for that reason, and I bring extra Spindowns and sleeves to give out for players who forgot them or can't afford them every time I draft.
On Tappedout I have written a ton of advice on budget building and commented on every single deck that has been sent my way, roughly 40 of them were budgeted severely and I supported them and gave suggestions to each of them for any format, even ones that I don't play, like vintage, since I relentlessly study each format metagame, so I'm not even an elitist format-wise, let alone budget.
As a brief aside, thank you to Nemesis, Pervavita, Caerwyn, and shadow63! You all supported me when I was offline, I respect that.
At the end of this post I will respond to you all individually!
Back to ToolisMaynard, you claimed, based off of the single note I wrote on being 'anti-proxy.'
"ToolisMaynard says...
SynergyBuild really? So instead of playing with someone who uses proxies and maybe having a good time you will refuse to play with them? Seems a bit harsh, I think you may be forgetting the point of magic the “gathering”. What are you some elitist. Sad world we live in"
Now, it is a semi-reasonable assumption that someone who self-identifies as anti-proxy wouldn't play with those that use them, but I never said that then you called me an elitist, which is a strange term to use.
Then you say later on:
"Nemesis, and what exactly is your definition of an elitist? To me it’s someone who shows up to the card shop not to have fun and meet people but stomp every game and suck the soul out of everyone they play against with their 10k dollar decks that rich mommy or daddy bought for them. I’ve seen it too many times, they show up with one deck, power level 10 and refuse to play with anyone else’s deck to make it more enjoyable. On top of that, they will take 10 minutes on their turn to play 2 spells and not say a word to anyone or try to be a decent human being. So what’s your definition?"
So, because I said I was anti-proxy, you said I am someone who was spoiled by my rich mommy or daddy who got me a 10k deck, taking 10 minutes to casts two spells, not try to be a decent human being, stomps every game, and doesn't have fun?
Wtf? I am just meant to be labeled that for saying something benign that was never followed up to clarify, just called that?
Dude, get a life.
Caerwyn and Nemesis, thank you for calling this out, it's toxic and unbecoming of this forum, shadow63 too! Pervavita, I also agree that testing is a valid area for proxying, I just didn't count it at all since I never really test in paper and forgot that it is totally done, since I playtest online!
February 11, 2020 9:32 p.m.
ToolisMaynard says... #19
SynergyBuild I think it’s funny how you think you have the right to come back after a day of no response and pretend that you have a voice anymore, and it’s cute that you called out all of your little fan boys in the chat lol, you guys can jerk each other off with your no proxied decks and use sleeves as the condoms
February 12, 2020 12:18 p.m.
Deadpoo111 says... #21
I've found that I use proxies to just test decks or weird ideas to see if they have any meat on them. My specter deck was almost 50% proxies when I started playing it.
I'm pretty much fine with proxies, when people proxy Timetwister, I am sort of annoyed, but only when they don't own one. If they flash it and say I actually own this card but don't want to risk losing $2000, I'm totally fine with it.
Overall, Proxies are just super useful for people who are testing or can't afford some of the cards their decks need. I'm in full support of them as long as it's not just to put all the og duals in for style, it's okay to run guildgates guys
February 12, 2020 12:30 p.m.
Deadpoo111 says... #22
Also, like, damn ToolisMaynard, lets calm down now. I mean, sure, proxies are a constant discussion but you don't have to rip into people for their opinions. I think SynergyBuild pretty much cleared up what he said in his second post and it doesn't really conform to the "elitist" comments above. He's also the least "elitist person on this site because of his extensive work with budget builds. Also, just because he's offline doesn't mean he can't come back to talk later in the argument. That's...that's not how arguments work.
Also, Gaea's Cradle isn't a necessary piece for competitive decks. If your meta runs a lot of cradles, run some land destruction.
February 12, 2020 12:40 p.m. Edited.
ToolisMaynard - It's clear that you have very strong opinions on this topic, but, as I already said, there is no reason for the personal attacks--and certainty no reason to cross the line to explicit insults. TappedOut has users of all ages--let's try to keep it PG-13 at worst.
TappedOut has a great little community not because we all agree with one another--but because we generally do a pretty good job at remaining cordial in our discussions. Even though some users (myself included) might lose their tempers at times, most do a pretty good job at reconciling after-the-fact once things have calmed down.
I would suggest you take a few days to calm down and consider the tone you have used to express your thoughts on this subject. I would recommend coming back on Saturday and possibly avoiding a return to this thread.
For everyone else, best to just get back to the actual topic of this thread's conversation. It is an interesting topic on which reasonable persons could disagree, and I think we all have derailed Rabid_Wombat's thread enough as it is!
February 12, 2020 1:01 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #24
If no one hs anything new to say, I think ending on that note by Caerwyn would be best :)
February 12, 2020 1:06 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #26
Lol @ this thread. I'm all for free speech and roasting clowns, but you have to post good content if you want to do that ToolisMaynard, and your posts are not good content.
Shout out to SynergyBuild for his previous and continued work in playable budget builds of good decks.
THE ULTIMATE GUIDE ON HOW TO USE PROXIES
Ask the people you're playing with if you can use proxies. If not, don't.
Ask your regular playgroup to have everybody build a proxy deck. Proxy up those $4000 decks and have some bonkers games.
PSA There is absolutely 0 difference between proxying Sol Ring and Timetwister. The act of proxying is the same, regardless of the card.
ToolisMaynard says... #2
Yeah it’s common man, I use proxies for the competitive tables because otherwise you’re unable to compete with a $100 deck, I wouldn’t worry about it too much and maybe I would look into it if I was you, just make sure everyone knows you’re playing with proxies before the game starts :) it’s a game
February 10, 2020 7:19 p.m.