Casual Play Etiquette?
General forum
Posted on Feb. 10, 2016, 1:43 p.m. by cradford609
New to the site. Been playing MTG since as far back as I can remember. My first deck was actually the red and blue starter pack back in, what, '95 or '96. Fell off for a little while And just started getting back into it. Long story anyway, I've been teaching my wife to play for about the past couple months. It's taking forever (Was I ever so bad?), especially since EVERY card thee days has some Heroic, Convoke, Exploit or other activated ability. So she's catching on now. Embarrassingly enough, Sh'e honest-to-god beaten me on several occasions. Anyways, I have two questions and I;m sorry, I understand the card and deck syntax on this site, But I still don't quite get how to make a paragraph, so this is surely going to look like the ramblings of a six year old, lol..........................................................................................................................................................(Should be enough?) Question 1: When you play casually what's everyone's stance on friendly mana cycling? Like I usually let my friends mana cycle every two turns that they A: Draw a card, B: Can't play anything in their hand and C: Have less than 4-5 total mana. Pretty much, you can look through and get a mana every two cards you discard from having 8+. I do this because firstly, I hate getting into a game and then getting screwed on mana through ten minutes and just getting demolished. Secondly, if I'm taking the time to sit down and play, it's just not fun to annihilate everyone because they had bad shuffles. I gather from reading around the site a bit that I'm a rare breed - someone who actually plays for fun - but if we're not getting strategic about our casting and counter-casting and offense/defense play then it's just not there for me, it's just cards with cool pictures then. ENTER - My wife, when she started was soooo terrible at strategizing etc. So I gave her a bunch of leeway on this. Mana-cycle every turn, don't graveyard the card you pulled just put it back on top, etc etc etc. Well, now she's actually doing good, well, good enough that she can see I'm bending some rules for her. Anyway, I'm doing it because She never would have wanted to learn if I just came out and swept the floor with her every time, then I wouldn't have somebody to play with and talk about MTG with all the time... Well, now she about 90% gets it. I'm running her through some deck-building and higher-level strategics now. She's actually getting to be a challenge (With all the gracious leeway I'm giving her), so Now I'm wondering about QUESTION 2 - At what point should I cut a beginner off from this favorable treatment? I know right now if we went to a game night somewhere, it'd be total rookie-alert and I'd hate for her to have to get embarrassed. But at the same time, she's going to need several more months with MTG before we go play against anyone serious... So should I say "You've got it, time to throw the baby bird out of the nest and play for real"? Should I keep being lenient until she's definitely got her journeyman stamp? Should I just not tell her and throw her to the wolves should we ever play with serious people? (Prob won't be doing that, tho, lol) Anyway, It was on my mind, whether I'm helping or hindering at this point. EXAMPLE Last night we built a couple quick decks and played a round. She got down to 4 player health before coming up with the mana to drop any defense whatsoever in the form of (2) Cyclops of One-Eyed Pass, (1) Akroan Crusader and (1) Felhide Spiritbinder. I had already played my Tromokratis, complete with Haunted Plate Mail and Divine Favor and had (3) White soldier tokens with Veteran Swordsmith and Veteran Armorsmith in play. So, (3) 2/2s, (2) 3/3s and a 15/17 which can only be blocked by all available blockers. Game Over, but I held my attack, like three or four turns until she finally realized she had the cards to get me (Attack and use Ultimate Price on Tromokratis when I went to block) in her hand the whole time. Any one else would have blown her away and already been playing another game, right?............................................................................................................................................................ Just Rambling now, Anywho, Has anyone been in a similar situation? Or just what are your guys' general thoughts on this? Like, I want to make her a better player, but don't know if I can do that playing wioth kiddie gloves on... Thanks!
Well obviously the rules of casual are up to you but I recommend just not having any leeway at all. Manacycling and other types of deck manipulation take half the skill out of deckbuilding which is a really important lesson. If you never get taught why it's bad to only include 20 lands then you're missing out on something. And really mana flood and mana screw happens so rarely if you a) build a deck appropriately and b) shuffle appropriately.
It's up to you what you do and don't do but if you bend the rules the experience is lacking and that can lead to huge frustration when these artificial aids are taken away eg. in a real game of magic.
By the way, you need to play killspells BEFORE creatures are declared as blockers otherwise the attacking creature counts as blocked EVEN IF THE BLOCKER DIES.
February 10, 2016 1:58 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #4
We've got a 2 month grace period at my shop, where if after 2 months you're still excited to play the game, the training wheels come off. I'm going to beat your ass with my legacy deck once or twice if I feel like it. I'm going to stop building your deck for you (I hear "Is this card good in my deck" literally every day, after a while instead of responding with "Well, no, because your deck does this, and this card works best in a deck that does something else", I respond with "Well, is that a good card?"), I'm going to introduce you to 'the dark side' of magic - ie competitive. If you don't like being regulated to 60 cards in your deck, I'll introduce you to EDH. I'm not going to play 87 card casual with you after your grace period, you know how to play the game now. EDH is our casual format, if you want to keep being a filthy casual you at least need to build a deck that matches our filthy casual decks.
Granted, this all comes on a per person basis, and this period may take a lot longer. This is usually the routine with the high school kids that come through. If you and your wife and kid or whatever are content with staying at 87 card casual level, sure, that's fine, but i'm going to introduce you to every other level of play that Magic has to offer too.
One of the ways that people learn to get better is to be beaten by someone who is better than they are, and this will create a drive to beat whomever beat them. For OP's specific instance, I'd start with just playing normal magic, and making points like 'Hey, you get mana screwed a lot. Maybe build your deck better.' (in a more tactful manner of course), "But how do I build my deck better?" 'Well, you can do this this and this'.
That's not so much taking off the training wheels as much as it is buying the bike in the first place. You've introduced them to the concept of a bike and they seem to enjoy it, now you get them the bike.
February 10, 2016 3:16 p.m. Edited.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #6
Hm. I'm with ChiefBell on this one. Manacycling is just a way to take the skill away.
In casual play, we tend to go by the "free mulligan" rule. New people get multiple free mulligans. This doesn't just increase the odds of getting a great hand, but it also accounts for the fact that they aren't sure what are keepable hands yet. Then just gradually strip away free mulligans. Instead of as many as you want, you get three. Instead of three you get two. Instead of two, you get one.
We also shy away from complex interactions at first. Keywords like protection or cumulative upkeep are fine from the get-go, but banding is something that we leave out.
The basics of the stack are also in play, but ways to "cheat" using the stack, for example Booming your own fetchland, are frowned upon at first. So are hyper efficient ramp decks.
There's no need to teach a player to play using mana cycling, because that's not how you play magic. The best way to teach someone is to gradually let them figure out what they are doing.
Don't throw them in the water. Don't throw them off a cliff.
But don't build a nest for them either. Allow them to make mistakes. We learn by experience, and getting your ass kicked by legacy TPS while you are playing T1 forest -> Llanowar Elves go is not fun for anyone.
Instead of giving the new player unfair advantages during the game, build a deck that corresponds to their level of play. It's demeaning for someone to 'let you win'. It's fun to beat someone who is a great player playing a terrible deck.
And while you shouldn't let them manacycle, you should point out different lines of play so they can see what they did wrong. You should always let them as you questions, and you should always answer them truthfully. If they say "Why didn't you block that?" explain that it's because you need that mana dork to pump out your Thragtusk, and that it isn't worth trading it with a Frost Walker.
Most importantly, joke. Make a lot of jokes. Magic is a terrible game to learn. It's complex. It's confusing. And the minute you play against an experienced player who is playing their best deck to their best ability, it becomes miserable. Jokes make it better. You can also give helpful advice. Sure, tell them right from the get-go that you "always bolt the bird" but also make sure you joke about lightning rods every time you play a Birds of Paradise.
There are a bunch of ways to learn the game that don't require months of coddling before being thrown into the abyss.
February 10, 2016 4:41 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #7
The best way to learn to play magic is through simple games.
Llanowar Elves, Shocks, Counterspells, Wrench Minds, and Attended Knights are all your friends.
You can build simple to play, simple to understand decks that are great for beginners (and for those playing against the beginners) that still allow you to play actual magic.
February 10, 2016 4:48 p.m.
mickalopagus says... #8
Our group has been playing together for year now and we have a few rules that we follow:
First draw of any game you can have free mulligan. After one you drop to 6 cards. If you have 3 mulligans at 6 you have to grab a different deck. Usually the worst it gets is someone goes to 6 and the third draw they play.
No infinite combos. Anything that would go infinite stops at 1. This prevents people from building decks that just strip the fun from the game for everyone else. Everyone, especially in multiplayer prefers a game that lasts at least 5 or 6 rounds. Usually we try and limit decks that would end the game in less than 3 rounds, I mean, sometimes you just get an epic draw and it happens, but if one deck is wayyy wayyyyyy to powerful, it usually mucks things up, and everyone will let the deckbuilder know it.
If there is a misunderstanding of rules, consult 'Ask a magic judge' online. No need to argue, just look it up. This one is hard for some of our players to follow.
If someone makes a mistake and the opponent argues that they cant go back to correct it, then for the rest of the evening the games are 'cutthroat'.. meaning if you make a mistake you have to eat it and learn from it. Usually with new players we are very lenient and will allow them to make the mistakes you would expect without consequence. Even with seasoned players that is usually the attitude, but every now and then people are just pissy for some reason, so we go cutthroat to spill some blood - dont know why it helps, but it does.
February 10, 2016 6:09 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #9
"So we spill some blood-don't know why it helps but it does"
So your playgroup is The Purge
February 10, 2016 6:55 p.m.
The only important skill you need to teach any new player to magic is how to rage quit, flip a table and watch the other player(s) play 75 or 100 card pick-up.
February 10, 2016 7:03 p.m.
mickalopagus says... #11
So we spill some blood-don't know why it helps but it does"So your playgroup is The Purge"
I dont know what The Purge is, if youre referring to that movie then yeah, maybe it is a bit like that. I am the most easy going of probably anyone there but it seems like the group works better some days when people play by the strictest of rules, ill go along with whatever keeps the game at a normal flow, ezpz or cutthroat. whatever.
February 10, 2016 7:21 p.m.
EXCALIBRAHHHH says... #12
If it is taking that long to get the mana/defenses up, your deck building is way off. Where I live we don't have a LGS so we play 'casual'. We still build standard, modern and vintage legal decks and play within the rules. Sometimes we will allow some leeway, such as if the tapped mana wrong we will allow them to correct it in the same main phase. I allow the others that leeway but I myself will do everything by the book, perfecting strategy and whatnot
February 10, 2016 7:30 p.m.
Wow...you guys have really nice playgroups....
Mine just threw me off the cliff and I just screamed all the way down.
February 10, 2016 8:07 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #14
Yes, I was referring to the movie. I haven't seen it, but I believe the entire premise is that a day of utter bloodshed is what allows people to get their rage out so they can live peacefully for the other 364 days.
February 10, 2016 10:22 p.m.
EXCALIBRAHHHH says... #15
Pretty much. Crime is legal for 12 hours a year, thats what I got from it anyway
February 10, 2016 11:06 p.m.
cradford609 says... #16
Alright, awesome.Thanks for the advice. I had already set her off on her own, just seeing what people thought....
WOW! I've played for 20 years and thought that I was pretty knowledgeable of the game. Then I find this site and realize people who did Magic through all those years I did drugs have created their own language to help define the game, lol. Learning so much the past few days on this site. You can play with 87 cards? Never once heard of that. I just build regular 60-card decks with no penchant for series/ format, etc. That's how I've always done it, so I actually literally don't understand what you mean in the least when you use acronyms like TPS or EDH. I got "Something something mulligan, something something something deckbuilding." Guess I need to troll around the site a bit more before I go talking like I belong in a group of hardcore MTG players. (I get what that one is;))
But seriously, the game has gotten so complex. When I learned, there were no creatures with special abilities except flying. I don't even think there was trample or reach. I mean, hands up if anyone remembers those epic Trained Orgg v. Vizzerdrix battles (Hands!). I've kept up on the basic progression of the game through the years without really getting in to playing, so when we bought a few decks last year, I already know what deathtouch, lifelink, regenerate etc. meant, but even myself after about a two year hiatus I was like 'What the hell is this heroic. Anyway they should release a simple set like I had, it's so much easier to learn without EVERY card having some crazy special abilities...
Ok, now. 'Don't know anything, Talking about ancient MTG history...' Think I've embarrassed myself enough for you guys, lol. Time to troll and figure this whole format thing out, lol... Thanks again everyone!
February 12, 2016 3:49 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #18
I learned Magic by playing casual with my friends, and losing most of the time. I kept playing though, because I was quickly grasping the concept of strategy, politics, and deckbuilding. Being "nice" is good when initially teaching a person how to Magic, but once they have a hang of the game, throw some decks together and have both of you play to win with the actual rules enforced.
Side note for ChiefBell: I'm sure you realized, but just in case, the reason Ultimate Price is cast after blockers were declared was because, if done before, Tromokratis would still have hexproof and not be a legal target. It was a good move on her part.
February 13, 2016 2:18 a.m.
Oh sure. I was just pointing out one of the peculiarities with blocking rules.
February 13, 2016 2:59 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #20
I figured. Lol. Thought I'd point it out also for other peeps. Also for those peeps, if the blocked creature has trample, and the blocking creature dies before combat damage, it will deal all damage to the defending player as though it were never blocked. Tidbit of the night. :)
February 13, 2016 3:05 a.m.
cradford609 says... #21
Strange, never knew the trample rule. Learn new things every day. Thanks for the info Squiggle...
To Excalibrahhh - - - Don't quote me on flash, prowess etc, but from the 80s/ 90s era cards, I can't remember any special creature abilities but flying and I seem to remember reach also, but so long ago it's hard to be certain. (Of course you could just look it up here on tappedout, lol, but I'm too lazy)
February 15, 2016 1:39 p.m.
cradford609 says... #23
Shoot, went back and read over ChiefBell's post, now. Never knew that either. The attacking creature(s) would then take no damage but not hit the player as though they had been blocked even though blocker has been killed? Or the attacker would still take blocking creature's damage if kill spell is played after declaring blockers?
Lot of strange nuances to familiar rules that a lifelong casual player like myself might never learn... (Currently wondering how many dozens upon dozens of games I've messed up in my life just on these two different situational rules, lol). Doubt anyone is still looking at this old topic, but if someone knows clarification for this point or on the creature abilities of early MTG cards, would be cool. I'll remember to look up the rule next time either of these situations present themselves though...
February 15, 2016 1:49 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #24
I started playing in born of the gods so I can't help with old cards unfortunately. But for rules clarifications, I'm all over that. Lol.
510.1c A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage...
702.19c If an attacking creature with trample is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to the player or planeswalker its attacking.
February 15, 2016 2:04 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #26
Here you go man. Otherwise you could google "Magic comprehensive rules" and click on the first link.
addaff says... #2
Take off the kiddie gloves. She has a good enough grasp of the game. So babying her won't help her progress any further. Now if you just built new decks its okay to give her a turn or two so she can get a little more XP with the deck. By doing so it will change how she decides to build decks in the future. Show her some combos, how to protect it, and so on.
February 10, 2016 1:55 p.m.