How is Thought Collapse Justified?
General forum
Posted on April 29, 2020, 7:18 a.m. by DemonDragonJ
Employees of WotC, or at least Mark Rosewater, have stated that a multicolored card can have a lower overall mana cost than a mono-colored card that performs the same effect, or can be more powerful than mono-colored cards with the same converted mana cost. For example, Aurelia's Fury is more powerful than Rolling Thunder and Merciless Eviction is more powerful than Final Judgement, whereas Unmake is less expensive than are Final Death or Final Reward.
Therefore, I am wondering how Thought Collapse can be strictly better than Psychic Strike when the former card is mono-colored and the latter card is multicolored; does that not violate WotC's policy on that matter?
What does everyone else say about this? How can Thought Collapse be better than Psychic Strike?
ThePerilousRealm says... #3
Different eras. Power creep over the years probably explains it.
April 29, 2020 9:12 a.m.
From what you posted I would say the key word is "can". If it has been stated that multicolored cards CAN cost less or be more powerful, it is not stating that they HAVE to or always WILL cost less or be more powerful. Just a thought
Also, the strength of Thought Collapse versus Psychic Strike depends on your build. If you are Dimir or some other multi-colored combination utilizing and , Strike may be easier to cast early on then a double spell. Yes, it is milling one less card but if you can't cast Collapse because you don't have the mana then no cards are being milled.
April 29, 2020 9:35 a.m.
A few factors.
-limited environment dictates a lot, you will see the same effect but at different cost in two sets one after the other and this is due to the power that card needs to be in limited.
-Power creep (as said above). This is the need for an effect to become more powerful. How much play in standard did Thought Collapse see? Or any other format outside limited? I suspect none. Psychic Strike does see a little play but I think it still would qualify as none. WOTC I suspect is playing with the knobs of power to find a place where a 3 mana counterspell will see play and be good.
Remember Cancel is also a 3 mana counterspell that sees vary little play even in limited and by comparison Psychic Strike is a better card.
April 29, 2020 10:43 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #6
Psychic Strike is far worse than Cancel. I'd go so far as to say Thought Collapse, Psychic Strike and Didn't Say Please are all extremely unplayable comapred to Cancel.
Mill is a historically bad strategy, for a few reasons -- first, it's slow. It is very slow. Second, there are A LOT of decks that can take advantage of having cards in their graveyard. Against Dredge, Delve, or just about every deck in Modern and many decks in Legacy, you're doing anything from giving them mana, upgrading their board state, dealing damage to yourself, or even giving them more cards.
Even against a non-graveyard deck it's bad. It makes it so that they're more likely to draw what they want, as long as you didn't mill it.
I'd argue that Strike is a strictly better Collapse in 90% of situations.
April 29, 2020 12:07 p.m.
PitaGryphon says... #7
pervavita: i think if wotc wants 3 cmc counterspells to see very much play, they're gonna need to push the envelope a good bit further than just milling some cards. Ionize was a good start.
April 30, 2020 12:05 a.m.
PitaGryphon, that may be true but I would rather them do it step by step and not over due it to the point of banning the cards. With that we have seen two 3 cmc counterspells in the last 2 years that have seen play in standard so they may have there balance now. We will see if it holds though.
May 1, 2020 10:47 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #10
Absorb is probably the best 3-mana counterspell so far. Disallow comes in a close second.
The reasons those are good is
- Absorb is great in control. It gives you a hard counterspell and lifegain, meaning you don't need too much lifegain in the sideboard to compensate against aggro.
- Disallow hits special abilities such as the abilities off Castles, Field of Ruin, and a variety of other rather great abilities.
Ionize I would only play in a more aggressive control deck, something like Jeskai Control. There's enough support in both Pioneer and Modern for this slightly more aggressive control build, and Ionize fits perfectly.
3-mana counterspells can only really fit in control-esque builds. You can fit 1 and 2 mana counters in any blue deck, but the only time you need the hard counters is control. If they want counterspells to be good, they either need to be efficient like Spell Pierce or have raw power like Absorb and Cryptic Command.
Also, don't beg for counterburn to be a thing. It's an archetype that's either without enough support or overly oppressive. If it ever is good enough, we'll live in a world where the only spells you are allowed to play are counterspells and card draw, and the other decks would be mostly land-heavy and uncounterable decks.
May 1, 2020 11:05 a.m.
PitaGryphon says... #11
Pervavita: i'd like 3 cmc counterspells to be modern playable, so i'm not sure they found their balance yet.
May 1, 2020 12:44 p.m.
For Modern I'm not sure 3 cmc on a counterspell is viable without a lot stapled onto it. With that your not going to find that just fall into a standard legal set anytime soon. Absorb will probably be the best we get in that regard. Modern is just too fast for much room here.
shadow63 says... #2
Theres also Didn't Say Please
April 29, 2020 9:11 a.m.